Bellini fx100

Ben johns

Ben johns

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A couple of days ago I developed 2 rolls of film. I used stand development so I did a roll of hp5 and tri x in the same tank. I did everything I usually do and fixed the film for 3 mins. When I took them out however they looked almost cloudy and the images were faint. I did wonder if it was the stand development but the film around the sprocket holes wasn’t 100% clear so I think it wasn’t fixed correctly. I used Bellini fx100 and it’s fairly fresh, this would have been the 3rd time I used I think. I’ve always used ilfords fixer before and never had this problem. Are all fixers the same? I assumed fixer was fixer
 
I've never used, or heard of Bellini but either way 3 minutes seems a short duration for fixing film.

I don't think I've ever fixed a film for less than 6 minutes.
 
Minimum of 5 minutes fix for me and I usually err on the side of caution and give it 7, it's difficult to over fix TBH.
 
Oh really? I usually go from 3-5 depending on how much I’ve used it. Well I did a quick test roll of old polypan today so I’ll develop it tomorrow. I’m hoping it is just user error as it’s half the price of ilford
 
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The old method was to note the clearing time, and fix for double that time. When the clearing time doubled, throw the fixer.

Fixer dissolves the undeveloped silver halide, but given enough time it can also get to work on the silver that makes up the image. I've never had this happen (so far as I know) with a film, but I have with a print.

The old fixers (based on hypo) used to have a fixing time of 10 mins, so fresh fixer cleared in 5 mins. The rapid hardening fixers cut this dramatically, and clearing was more like about 90 secs.

Some films need fixing for 3 times the clearing time to remove the last traces of dye.

And as to the obvious question of the safety of checking the film by daylight before fixing is complete - no problems. If you've used an alkaline developer and an acid stop bath, development will have stopped before the fixer goes in. With my slow filling CombiPlan tanks, I take the lid off to pour out the stop and pour in the fix. I have even taken the lid off to pour out the developer, as the fogging that this will cause won't have time to be developed before the stop bath stops it. I don't recommend that you try this at home - stop baths can also fail - but I haven't had problems. (I use an acetic acid stop bath, which I find more reliable than the odourless citric acid variety).
 
Asha said:
@Ben johns

What's the clearing time with your fixer?
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To be honest I have no idea. I’ve never done that test. I’ve always followed a set of instructions from a website that I can’t remember off hand and it just said fix for 2min 30- 5 min depending on how exhausted the fixer was and I’ve never had a problem. I’ll do the clearing test with the test roll tomorrow.
 
Peter B said:
What fixing time does the instructions state?

Edit: this is £8.85 against Ilford at £10.50, so hardly half the price. https://ntphotoworks.com/shop/product/ilford-rapid-fixer/ That's not a criticism though, since Nik & Trick do stock some interesting alternatives that must be worth trying.
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That’s weird, I could have sworn it was closer to half the price, oh well :).
Yea I’ve also bought a few 35mm rolls they’ve rolled from bulk rolls like Eastman double x
 
For what it's worth, I always kept the leaders from 35mm film to use for testing clearing time if I was unsure about the fixer - unsure enough to wonder if I should make up some fresh. For some years now, I've been using the remnants from a bulk tin of FP3 (sic - I do mean FP3) for that purpose.
 
StephenM said:
For what it's worth, I always kept the leaders from 35mm film to use for testing clearing time if I was unsure about the fixer - unsure enough to wonder if I should make up some fresh. For some years now, I've been using the remnants from a bulk tin of FP3 (sic - I do mean FP3) for that purpose.
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That’s a good idea actually. Do all films take the same time to clear? Could I use the leader from hp5 say to test for Acros 100?
 
In practice, yes. After all, unlike developers, fixers don't quote different times for different films.
 
StephenM said:
In practice, yes. After all, unlike developers, fixers don't quote different times for different films.
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Tabular grain films - ie T-MAX do take longer and exhaust fixer faster (something to do with the iodide somone said) and the pink dye on 35mm T-MAX also takes a while to clear too. Ilford used to suggest longer fixing times for their Delta films (and never suggest to an Ilford employee that they are tabular grain its called Core-Shell crystal technology and is totally different to Kodak's patented tabular grain)
 
When you say "When I took them out however they looked almost cloudy" were they cloudy straight out of the tank or did they cloud over time. I vaguely recall being told that film is not very sensitive after it is developed and so exposure to light before fixing is not a major issue. Could it be that the film is fogged (i.e. light has go in before developing)?
 
sirch said:
When you say "When I took them out however they looked almost cloudy" were they cloudy straight out of the tank or did they cloud over time. I vaguely recall being told that film is not very sensitive after it is developed and so exposure to light before fixing is not a major issue. Could it be that the film is fogged (i.e. light has go in before developing)?
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I suppose it’s possible, it did happen to both rolls on the tank though which made me think it wasn’t fixed. I don’t think anything happened when I was loading the film onto the reels, maybe I didn’t realise
 
It doesn't seem as if anyone's said this yet, but if the problem is simply insufficient fixing, refix in fresh fixer and wash and all should be well.
 
StephenM said:
It doesn't seem as if anyone's said this yet, but if the problem is simply insufficient fixing, refix in fresh fixer and wash and all should be well.
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I suggested that ……………………………...

to myself in my head! :LOL:

I kinda thought it was a pretty obvious thing to do but I guess not
 
Everything's obvious once it's pointed out - or it is in all the detective stories I've ever read :)

If you're not sure as to what's actually happening when you process a film, refixing may sound as strange as redeveloping. Although some processes do do exactly that...
 
@StephenM ;your knowledge along with @dmb never ceases to amaze me (y)

If this forum required a subscription it would be worth it just for the knowledge the pair of you part freely and willingly.

Great work chaps. :)
 
You do me an injustice by overrating me. But thanks anyway.:)

:jaffa::jaffa::jaffa:
 
StephenM said:
In practice, yes. After all, unlike developers, fixers don't quote different times for different films.
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So I developed the test roll of polypan tonight. Did the leader test and it cleared in 20sec! Left in for 5min just in case and it came out fine. It was fresh fixer so maybe the old one was too old but I’d only done about 4 tanks with it I think. Oh well, I know to test it now :)
 
So, try re-fixing the old film, like Stephen said?
 
Ben johns said:
I did and it didn’t work, god knows what it was
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That would sound like the problem was either in development or even perhaps incorrect exposure in camera although to have both rolls with faint images makes that unlikely.
 
Going back to the start Ben, what developer did you use and where did you get the time for stand development? Was it fully stand, or semi stand with a couple of inversions during the time? That might help with an answer. :thinking:
 
Asha said:
That would sound like the problem was either in development or even perhaps incorrect exposure in camera although to have both rolls with faint images makes that unlikely.
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The only thing I can think of is maybe they got exposed to light when I put them on the reels. But I used a changing bag, maybe I didn’t seal the opening properly.
 
Peter B said:
Going back to the start Ben, what developer did you use and where did you get the time for stand development? Was it fully stand, or semi stand with a couple of inversions during the time? That might help with an answer. :thinking:
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I used rodinal 1:100 dilution semi stand for an hour. 30min stand with a couple of inversions then another 30min. I’ve done it loads of times now with different rolls and only occasionally get dodgy development and when I do it’ll only be a frame or 2 having a very small amount of bromide drag.
On a side note would anyone say that stand takes away the character of a particular film and makes them look similar? I don’t think I’ve noticed this but I’ve just got 5 rolls of acros 100 which I’ve wanted to try for a long time so I don’t want to take away from it. I do have some ilfotec hc at home but I’ve also heard that rodinal at 1:50 is good for acros
 
Ben johns said:
The only thing I can think of is maybe they got exposed to light when I put them on the reels. But I used a changing bag, maybe I didn’t seal the opening properly.
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Even if you hadn't got hte bag sealed correctly, to have all 72 frames ( presumably) coming out faint seems more like a chemical or time issue to me
 
Asha said:
Even if you hadn't got hte bag sealed correctly, to have all 72 frames ( presumably) coming out faint seems more like a chemical or time issue to me
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Yea maybe. I don’t really know, I did everything the same. Maybe I didn’t put enough rodinal in by mistake or something
 
Ben johns said:
Yea maybe. I don’t really know, I did everything the same. Maybe I didn’t put enough rodinal in by mistake or something
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I think that this is one of those situations where you're going to have to simply put down to experience.

There are so many stages that can go t*is up it isn't always possible to pinpoint which one caused the issue.

I'm all for attempting to try locate the source but there has to be a stop off point…..We'd drive ourselves insane otherwise ( Makes me wonder a tad as some of the crusty fusty crones in here appear to be leaning in that direction……..I mention no names @Andysnap @RaglanSurf :exit::LOL:)
 
Can I go back to the beginning? I assumed (nearly always a mistake) that I understood what you meant when you said that the negatives were cloudy. Could you either post a photo, or tell me if the cloudiness was white/cream indicating incomplete fixing or black(ish) indicating light or chemical fogging? Did the imprinted film information come out clearly on the edges, which usually gives a good indication that development was relatively normal?
 
Scrub that. If refixing didn't help, it presumably has to be light or chemical fogging. Coupling that with a faint image anyway, my thoughts (without viewing the negatives) tend to a development issue. "Rodinal" flags up a warning sign in my mind. The original Agfa Rodinal lasts for years; the slightly altered modern variants don't. I'm still using the old stock, so this is hearsay, but many have reported that versions like the R09 have a life of about 6 months when open, and fail virtually overnight. There are other Rodinal "equivalents" that may perform more like the original; but this is outside my exerience.
 
StephenM said:
... There are other Rodinal "equivalents" that may perform more like the original; but this is outside my exerience.
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My homebrew 'Parodinal' certainly lasts well. Last weekend used the dregs of a bottle I made 7 years ago and the last 6ml were black as tar but still had the 'reserve' crystals at the bottom. I bet the modern versions are filtered and don't have a reserve of p-aminophenol to replace that oxidised to indophenols. I did do a quick clip test with a bit of the film leader in the diluted developer. (Wet leader first, dip into dev, I use tweezers, start stopwatch , agitate continuosly, note time when it goes dark grey, not black. If dev is good that should be about 1/5th of usual dev time - much longer and dev is suspect.) {You can estimate dev times for unknown films in same way - just multiply time to dark grey by 5}
 
The good old Watkins factor! Thanks for that. One of the reasons I switched to Rodinal when my former developer(s) were discontinued was that the formulae (plural intentional) were available, so I could always carry on making my own if necessary.
 
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