Big Cats

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I read an article a few days ago on so-called big-cat sightings in the UK. I thought it might be interesting for some to share it with.These sightings have been going on for many years with little evidence. Unfortunately, no-one from TP has had a sighting and their camera with them so the photos which have been taken are blurry and unconvincing :)

Dr Andrew Hemmings of the Royal Agricutural University,Cirencester (Gloucestershire)says that he's idntified 5 animal carcasses with tooth imprints on their bones that could only have been made by a non-native cat the size of a leopard or a puma.He concentrated on the imprints of the carnassial teeth used for shearing and gnawing the carcas because they differ distinctly from dogs,native carnivores and cats. Over the past six years his team have analysed more than 100 skeletal remains and from these 16 have had good carnassial imprints of which five they are confident were made by a medium to large -sized felid (cat family) animal. The other 11 were suggestive of smaller carnivores but the other five do fit the markings for a puma or melanistic (black) leopard. Five of Dr Hemming's university colleagues have reported seeing a big cat with one having seen a mountain lion,also known as a puma, vaulting a dry stone wall. There are a lot of those type of walls in the Cotswolds. . What the team did was to feed pumas and black leopards (at Exeter zoo) as a control group to see whether the tooth imprints matched their samples which they did. They intend to publish their findings in a peer-reviewed journal. For the past six years they have worked with a network of informants and witnesses who alert them to suspicious deer and sheep kill sites and they recover the carcasses for analysis.

Big cats are believed to have been released into the wild during World War 11 when meat for their food was scarce and another release in the months leading up to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 which restricted the keeping of certain species. The leader of the national network is Rick Minter who worked as a policy officer with the Countryside Commison Agency for 18 years and is an expert on big cats..Over the past 10 years he has recorded 1300 sightings made by people from across the UK. One report was of a black leopard that followed two dog walkers in May, this year near Oldbury-on-Severn here in Gloucestershire. It followed them for a minute. He sets up trail cameras in the Cotswolds. About three quarters of the sightings are of the black leopard, labrador-sized cats with an elongated body.,pronounced shoulder blades,thick tail and flat face with rounded ears.The others are mainly pumas..which are brown with slightly more pointed ears. In addition some lynx. Most sightings occur at dawn or dusk when the cats use the darkness as an advantage over their prey. In 2009 the Forestry Commission revealed that rangers had seen big cats twice while using thermal imaging cameras to conduct deer surveys in the Forest of Dean (Gloucestershire). Mr Minter said that 20-30 landowners know about big cats having been on their land with sightings made by game keepers or animal carcasses found carried into trees.. He said 80% of these reports were credible and because of the consistency of the sightings and the lack of signs of inbreeding and their skill at hunting deer and he believes there could be a breeding population of about 250 black leopards in the British countryside. He justifies this because most witnesses and informants are reliable people like the police,military personnel and scientists. Also, the way the black leopards kill is learnt and taught behaviour. Farmers will say it is so different from a dog killing a deer or sheep. It's so neat and tidy and clinical.

If there are so many why don't more people see them ? Mr Minter's answer is that there are at least 30,000 pumas in the western states of the US but encounters with people are incredibly rare and normally only when an animal is ill. It's the same with leopards in Asia.They live in the shadows. In native territories these cats would be hemmed into defined territories more by neighbouring cats and would walk more of the same routes, then you have a chance of photographing them if you set up trail cameras. Here in the Uk as there are not as many then territory is a much looser concept.

Why aren't bodies found ? Dr.Hemming says they tend to go to inaccessible places to die. On Vancouver Island where pumas are endemic, it's rare to see one alive and even rarer to come across a carcass.

Several big cats have been caught or killed. A lynx was shot in Devon in 1903. A puma was caught in a trap in Inverness-shire in 1980. It had gone to the Highland Wildlife Park zoo and was called Felicity.Two jungle cats were killed by cars in the 1980's, one in Hampshire and the other in Shropshire. In 1991 a lynx was shot near Norwich. It had killed 15 sheep.
 
A big cat was hit and killed outside Robinswood Hill in Gloucester Many years ago. It was kept hush but it most certainly happened.

I also have photos, albeit very poor as they were from a phone before phones really took photos of a big Paw print left at the top of the hill.

We now live in the Forest of Dean and have seen multiple sheep carcasses with the rib cages torn open and insides missing and also a number of wild boar gutted.
My wife swears she saw a big black cat crossing the road a while back too.

There Are supposedly 2000+ boar in the forest and it’s actually not that common to see them, and they are reasonably domesticated now..
I can quite believe big cats wouldn’t be seen if they didn’t want to be.
 
Road casualties? If there are so many supposedly around then surely at least one of them would have been taken out by a car or truck by now, leaving a rather large pile of irrefutable big cat-shaped evidence (and probably some damage to the vehicle too!). I'm not saying there are none, but I think 250 leopards is a lot to hide in a relatively small and highly populated country such as Britain. Also, given the ever increasing number of trail cameras being used these days, I'd have expected at least one of the 'could be' 250 or so to have made a recognisable and definitive appearance on YouTube by now?

Then there's the Father Ted and Dougal 'small or far away' factor, whereby quite a few supposed photos of large black cats turn out to be regular sized domestic cats in closer proximity than first realised! There's also been several recent sightings of big cats that have turned out to be extra-large cuddly toys and garden ornament statues (including some that have resulted in Police firearms squads being called out!). Plus those subsequently and definitively explained away as being Savannah cats (domestic/serval crosses) and other such exotic and perfectly legal to keep larger 'small cat' breeds such as Norwegian Forest cats, Maine Coon cats, etc.
 
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Looks like a bit more evidence than there is for UFO's! :)
I seem to remember one piece of video footage supposedly from Bodmin Moor many years ago that was shown on TV news ... 'The Beast of Bodmin Moor'.
 
(at Exeter zoo)


I'd love to know where in Exeter our zoo is...

They do have a pair (or did) of black leopards at Exmoor Zoo (really must make the trip at some point!)

Local legend has it that a famous and allegedly abusive circus personality was due to deliver one or more big cat(s) to Dartmoor zoo but they escaped onto the Moor. Plenty of wildlife and stock up there to sustain a population and it's big enough to keep the hidden too.
 
A big cat was hit and killed outside Robinswood Hill in Gloucester Many years ago. It was kept hush but it most certainly happened.

I also have photos, albeit very poor as they were from a phone before phones really took photos of a big Paw print left at the top of the hill.

We now live in the Forest of Dean and have seen multiple sheep carcasses with the rib cages torn open and insides missing and also a number of wild boar gutted.
My wife swears she saw a big black cat crossing the road a while back too.

There Are supposedly 2000+ boar in the forest and it’s actually not that common to see them, and they are reasonably domesticated now..
I can quite believe big cats wouldn’t be seen if they didn’t want to be.


I can see Robinswood hill from our house..quite close and I used to 'run' up it..sort of..lol. to keep fit. There's a green parrakeet living around the church in Matson and locals feed it. Been there for years.It used to live on Robinswood hill. My sister lives near Coleford and has seen the boars several times and I've photographed one at Canop Ponds by the picnic area. I crouched to take the shot and it was abouit 15 m away paying no attention to me whatsoever. I did think about lying on my stomach but if it charged at me it would take longer to get up..not much longer though :LOL: I also saw a sow with her gang of little stripy-ones from New Fancy. They were down in the valley. I went to see if I could photograph a goshawk.

Btw. My sister was a loud campaigner to stop parts of the Forest being privatised. HOOF..Hands Off Our Forest. (2011)They won of course.The part- privatisation was backed by your Con. MP Mark Harper.
 
I'd love to know where in Exeter our zoo is...

They do have a pair (or did) of black leopards at Exmoor Zoo (really must make the trip at some point!)

Local legend has it that a famous and allegedly abusive circus personality was due to deliver one or more big cat(s) to Dartmoor zoo but they escaped onto the Moor. Plenty of wildlife and stock up there to sustain a population and it's big enough to keep the hidden too.

That's my error. I've just re-read the article to clarify that and it is Exmoor Zoo.
 
I've had a look on YouTube, which would be the first destination I'd expect for video evidence of a big cat sighting (after sale to the press that is!). It gave me a good laugh anyway! Aside from such poor quality photos, screen grabs, etc. which were so blurry you couldn't tell what the object was, the footage I saw of supposedly large black cats was highly amusing. If the videos I watched really were of a black leopard/panther then I've never seen such huge hedgerows, massive nettles and tussocks of grass and some trees of such gargantuan size that they would rival that one in America that you could drive a car through! Sorry, but it was definitely Tiddles the moggy out mousing, not the Beast of (add alliterative place name).

The ones I saw of alleged big black cats on roads were quite amusing too... did anyone know they had single track lanes the width of dual carriageways in Devon? As that's how wide the lane would need to have been if that really was a black leopard standing there! Same with a photo I saw of a cat walking down an unmetalled track... the vehicles using it must have had wheels 4 feet wide if that was a big cat walking along one of the wheel tracks... I wouldn't mind, but I could even see the tabby markings on the moggy! Not even a Scottish wildcat either, as the tail markings were wrong!

So there's the challenge, show me a photo or video that clearly shows a wild free-roaming UK big cat, of the right size and scale for the background, that's not been faked. As for the stories that DNA tests have been carried out on fur found at the scene of a kill... is it possible that someone might have wanted to carry out a hoax and placed some genuine big cat fur there?

Also, how come the big cat sighting so frequently seems to be of a black animal? Could it be that no spotted leopard, cougar, lynx, puma, etc, were ever released? Or could it be that black is one of the hardest colours to determine shape, scale and range? Black Labrador, Shetland pony, wild boar, or a domestic cat closer than it appears, all candidates for a big cat sighting?

Furthermore, there are tales of large black dogs and other similar shaped 'demonic animals' going back hundreds of years in this and many other European countries; Black Shuck in Norfolk for instance. It seems the human race has an innate fear of large wild animals at night, and probably quite sensibly so. Could this explain at least some of the sightings? In this day and age I suppose it's easier to say you think you've seen a big cat than a hellhound!

As I said, there might possibly be one or two big cats out there, but I've yet to see convincing proof that couldn't be faked by a hoaxer, or misinterpreted by someone who wants to believe. That seems to be another human trait, we love mysteries and the paranormal... who wouldn't be excited and very interested if it was announced that they really had found the Loch Ness Monster, Sasquatch or Yeti? Could it be that the trait of 'wanting to believe' is responsible for a large proportion of UK big cat sightings?
 
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I'm not saying there are none, but I think 250 leopards is a lot to hide in a relatively small and highly populated country such as Britain. Also, given the ever increasing number of trail cameras being used these days, I'd have expected at least one of the 'could be' 250 or so to have made a recognisable and definitive appearance on YouTube by now?


That question was asked by the author of the article and the two experts featured gave an answer. I also noted, as you did, that Rick Minter used the term 'could be' (250) which I don't like in any circumstance but he's based it on the number of reports by professional people with experience in identification and the manner of the kills of those reported by farmers.

Question by the author:

"If there are so many why don't more people see them ? "

Rick Minter: 'There are at least 30,000 pumas in the western states of the US but encounters with people are incredibly rare and normally only when an animal is ill. It's the same with leopards in Asia.They live in the shadows. In native territories these cats would be hemmed into defined territories more by neighbouring cats and would walk more of the same routes, then you have a chance of photographing them if you set up trail cameras. Here in the Uk as there are not as many then territory is a much looser concept'

Author: Why aren't bodies found ?'

Dr.Hemming: 'They tend to go to inaccessible places to die. On Vancouver Island where pumas are endemic, it's rare to see one alive and even rarer to come across a carcass'

Re your question about why none have been killed by cars/trucks. Maybe they're a lot smarter than animals that succumb to our traffic. Maybe contact one of the two contributors to the article with that question. :)

Just to address your point re trail cameras I checked to see when they started to become popular. 2009. Now we see footage from them posted on here. It depends on what someone wants to capture as to where they are placed. Two on here are in back gardens and one seems to be in a wood (to capture deer which it did) Rick Minter is placing trail cameras in areas where there have been sightings..out in the Cotswolds. I expect indisputable evidence in the form of trail camera footage will eventually captured but having said that the article states that in 2009 on two occasions in the Forest of Dean rangers checking on the deer population captured sightings of big cats on their thermal imaging cameras . Having watched footage taken by these thermal imaging cameras on the wildlife tv programmes then I assume good clear indisputable images exist.

Your other point re the use of trail cameras is also answered in Rick Minter's response (above)

In the US he says there at least 30,000 pumas and that they have set territorial trails because of like-neighbours so anyone wanting to capture them would have a good idea where to place the cameras but not so here due to the small population.

My personal opinion is that sooner or later there will be indisputable evidence caught on camera because of the advanced technology used in photography. I'm amazed at the quality of photos from mobile phones which is what is most likely to capture them. Samsung Galaxy S20 Ultra packs 108mp image sensor 8K video and 100X zoom. They're better than most medium format cameras other than the very,very expensive ones.
 
Any idea just how vast and sparsely populated most of the Western States of the US are? So that explanation and cougar analogy doesn't hold up terribly well for me.

I don't think a local authority or forestry commission ranger service would have access to the same state-of-the art broadcast quality thermal imaging cameras that are used on TV wildlife programmes. Most likely (particularly going back over a decade) they will have been hand-held scope type units that offer significantly lower resolution (think 384 x 288 sensor or lower, with 9 FPS frame rate ), providing little more than an approximate shape of the core heat source. Even with today's technology you can't compare the results from a hand-held thermal imager costing a couple of thousand pounds with one of the £60,000 to £100,000+ cooled system thermal cameras hired in by TV production companies. Even if they were loaned something exotic as a one-off test or treat where's the photographic proof of what they allegedly saw?

Yes, mobile phones have been able to capture good quality images and video, even in low light situations, for a few years now... so how come all the images claiming big cat sightings are so indistinct? Is it because good quality images or video actually revealed that the target was obviously a domestic animal when the photographer got home and viewed their images on a large screen? I strongly suspect this is probably the case. Perhaps this explains all the 'you decide' indistinct stuff that seems to crop up on the internet, yet not one single sharp, clear photo or video?

As for trail cameras, then yes, one day one might produce a good, clear image of a big cat, but that won't mean there's hundreds out there... potentially just one, that could have escaped earlier that week for all we know.
 
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I've had a look on YouTube, which would be the first destination I'd expect for video evidence of a big cat sighting (after sale to the press that is!). It gave me a good laugh anyway! Aside from such poor quality photos, screen grabs, etc. which were so blurry you couldn't tell what the object was, the footage I saw of supposedly large black cats was highly amusing. If the videos I watched really were of a black leopard/panther then I've never seen such huge hedgerows, massive nettles and tussocks of grass and some trees of such gargantuan size that they would rival that one in America that you could drive a car through! Sorry, but it was definitely Tiddles the moggy out mousing, not the Beast of (add alliterative place name).

The ones I saw of alleged big black cats on roads were quite amusing too... did anyone know they had single track lanes the width of dual carriageways in Devon? As that's how wide the lane would need to have been if that really was a black leopard standing there! Same with a photo I saw of a cat walking down an unmetalled track... the vehicles using it must have had wheels 4 feet wide if that was a big cat walking along one of the wheel tracks... I wouldn't mind, but I could even see the tabby markings on the moggy! Not even a Scottish wildcat either, as the tail markings were wrong!

So there's the challenge, show me a photo or video that clearly shows a wild free-roaming UK big cat, of the right size and scale for the background, that's not been faked. As for the stories that DNA tests have been carried out on fur found at the scene of a kill... is it possible that someone might have wanted to carry out a hoax and placed some genuine big cat fur there?

Also, how come the big cat sighting so frequently seems to be of a black animal? Could it be that no spotted leopard, cougar, lynx, puma, etc, were ever released? Or could it be that black is one of the hardest colours to determine shape, scale and range? Black Labrador, Shetland pony, wild boar, or a domestic cat closer than it appears, all candidates for a big cat sighting?

Furthermore, there are tales of large black dogs and other similar shaped 'demonic animals' going back hundreds of years in this and many other European countries; Black Shuck in Norfolk for instance. It seems the human race has an innate fear of large wild animals at night, and probably quite sensibly so. Could this be explain at least some of the sightings? In this day and age I suppose it's easier to say you think you've seen a big cat than a hellhound!

As I said, there might possibly be one or two big cats out there, but I've yet to see convincing proof that couldn't be faked by a hoaxer, or misinterpreted by someone who wants to believe. That seems to be another human trait, we love mysteries and the paranormal... who wouldn't be excited and very interested if it was announced that they really had found the Loch Ness Monster, Sasquatch or Yeti? Could it be that the trait of 'wanting to believe' is responsible for a large proportion of UK big cat sightings?


I've just posted a reply to you which took a good while as I had to come and go so hadn't seen your latest.

You've said in your last paragraph..As I said, there might possibly be one or two big cats out there.'So you are open to the possibility that they exist which the rest of your post dismisses.

And re one of your questions....'So there's the challenge, show me a photo or video that clearly shows a wild free-roaming UK big cat that's not been faked ', that question along along with other challenges, I ask you...Who, exactly are you addressing ? Apart from TCR4X4 no-one in the thread has said they believe they exist or possibly exist..except you, of course. All the answers I gave to you in my previous post came from the two experts in the article. If they do exist then with the advanced camera technology we have these days then ,as I say, sooner or later one will be captured.

As you've pointed out, many, most infact ,sightings are not what they're purport to be, some are,.as you say, hoaxes but that article I posted deals with sightings (in two instances thermal images by professionals) and evidence regarding the manner of a kill from carcasses. Those who have read it may be open-minded about it like you are with respect to 'one or two'..or totally dismiss it. If you were trying to make the point that most sightings are either hoaxes or some other creature you could have done so in a much more succinct way.
 
Any idea just how vast and sparsely populated most of the Western States of the US are? So that explanation and cougar analogy doesn't hold up terribly well for me.

I don't think a local authority or forestry commission ranger service would have access to the same state-of-the art broadcast quality thermal imaging cameras that are used on TV wildlife programmes. Most likely (particularly going back over a decade) they will have been hand-held scope type units that offer significantly lower resolution (think 384 x 288 sensor or lower, with 9 FPS frame rate ), providing little more than an approximate shape of the core heat source. Even with today's technology you can't compare the results from a hand-held thermal imager costing a couple of thousand pounds with one of the £60,000 to £100,000+ cooled system thermal cameras hired in by TV production companies. Even if they were loaned something exotic as a one-off test or treat where's the photographic proof of what they allegedly saw?

Yes, mobile phones have been able to capture good quality images and video, even in low light situations, for a few years now... so how come all the images claiming big cat sightings are so indistinct? Is it because good quality images or video actually revealed that the target was obviously a domestic animal when the photographer got home and viewed their images on a large screen? I strongly suspect this is probably the case. Perhaps this explains all the 'you decide' indistinct stuff that seems to crop up on the internet, yet not one single sharp, clear photo or video?

As for trail cameras, then yes, one day one might produce a good, clear image of a big cat, but that won't mean there's hundreds out there... potentially just one, that could have escaped earlier that week for all we know.

I take on board all your reservations but you've asked me two questions just like you asked all those other questions in your previous post. One asking me if I know how vast and sparsley populated most of the Western States of the US are and re the thermal images 'Even if they were loaned something exotic as a one-off test or treat where's the photographic proof of what they allegedly saw ?

Why are you asking me in relation to the thermal imaging photos and Rick Minter's explanation of why they aren't more often seen ? You should be addressing those questions to

(a)Forestry Commision /Forestry England but you'll need to do it through a FOI Act application https://www.forestryengland.uk/making-request

(b)Rick Minter. He's on Rick@bigcatconservation.com

Yes, I do know how vast and unpopulated the Western States are having travelled through some of them annually for 8 years.

It's been a case of 'shoot the messenger' hasn't it.
 
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It's been a case of 'shoot the messenger' hasn't it.

Not at all. I think you've got the wrong impression, I'm not having a go at you, or what you think or believe, in the slightest. I think you've raised an interesting topic, so I responded to it, that's all.

Big cats certainly do exist (though, sadly for many species, this is in ever decreasing numbers in their native countries), so no question about that; and some have very occasionally been found over the years in the UK countryside. However, in recent years, this has been down to well documented escapes from a zoo or a private collection (like that poor lynx that was shot dead by a police marksman after escaping from a zoo a couple of years ago).

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a few people released big cats into the wild in Britain around the time of the 1976 Dangerous Animals Act (or unlawfully kept 'pets' after this date). Whether or not any released or escaped big cats survived to form any sort of sustainable breeding population (in the long term) currently appears to remain as conjecture. Also, if it were that easy for big cats to survive as a viable breeding population in the UK countryside, then why is the native Scottish wildcat (a small cat) on the verge of extinction?

All I have done is look at the reports you quoted as logically as I can and asked some questions (to anyone who reads them) This isn't being cynical or antagonistic, it's viewing things scientifically and looking for definitive scientific proof one way or the other. To date, I've not seen a single good, clear photo or video to back up any claimed big cat sighting in the wild in the UK. Based on that I have to remain open minded on the subject, and my current reasoning would be that it is hypothetically possible for a very small number of individual big cats to survive in the British countryside undetected (or very occasionally seen), but it's far more likely for a 'sighting' to be a false alarm and a case of mistaken identity. After all, there is relatively frequent and well documented proof of false sightings happening.

I regularly use infra-red night vision cameras, a thermal imager and trail cameras in the British countryside, so I know the limitations and constraints of such equipment, so I was speaking from some practical experience in that respect. I've yet to see any recordings from my cameras that I can't explain or attribute to 'native' British wildlife or weather phenomenon, apart from on one occasion when monitoring the interior of a disused garage, where a cloth overhanging a workbench briefly moved with no visible cause. This was most likely due a mouse moving it from behind, but I suspect that some 'ghost hunters' might have had that plastered all over the internet as proof of the paranormal by now?

The Sherlock Holmes quote springs to mind here "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.". Sadly, I've not got beyond eliminating 'all which is possible' yet. Hope this makes sense. (y):)
 
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Also, if it were that easy for big cats to survive as a viable breeding population in the UK countryside, then why is the native Scottish wildcat (a small cat) on the verge of extinction?

A lot of that is due to inter breeding with domestic cats, which means there are very few pure wildcats left
All captive wildcats have been tested for purity and only the best of them are being use for a breeding program
to reintroduce them back into the semi wild, which will mean large areas that are fenced to stop the domestic cats
contaminating the breeding again
 
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I've seen two, they aren't 'panther like but about the size of a large fox,
Similar size to a Border Collie. Mine was traumatised when she spotted 'a cat' hiding in a hedge, and provoked it to come out and be chased - it jumped out and decisively stood it's ground so my dog fled - it then scampered off like a playful kitten.
This was barely 30 yards away from me in full view on a bright afternoon
 
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A lot of that is due to inter breeding with domestic cats, which means there are very few pure wildcats left
All captive wildcats have been tested for purity and only the best of them are being use for a breeding program
to reintroduce them back into the semi wild, which will mean large areas that are fenced to stop the domestic cats
contaminating the breeding again

I'm aware of that factor, but they only got to the stage where genetic dilution has become critical due to dwindling numbers of their own species to mate with in the wild, plus an increase in the number of humans (and their pets). The main causal factors for their decline to that stage appear to have been persecution by humans and the fragmentation of suitable habitat due to human activity.


I've seen two, they aren't 'panther like but about the size of a large fox,
Similar size to a Border Collie. Mine was traumatised when she spotted 'a cat' hiding in a hedge, and provoked it to come out and be chased - it jumped out and decisively stood it's ground so my dog fled - it then scampered off like a playful kitten.
This was barely 30 yards away from me in full view on a bright afternoon
Black panther is the generic name given to melanistic (black) big cats of the group Panthera, which includes leopard, rather than it being a distinct species itself. An adult female leopard (which is smaller than the male) weights around 30+ kg and stands around 60cm at shoulder height, with a head and body length from around 90cm. So a small melanistic female (or young) leopard could fall roughly within the 'about the size of a large large fox' range, particularly from around 30 yards away. However, do be aware that melanistic foxes occur too, but are very rare in Britain... so, either way, get your camera ready next time! (y)
 
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I believe, the truth is out there :)

62TDiHO.jpg
 
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Snip:

Not at all. I think you've got the wrong impression, I'm not having a go at you, or what you think or believe, in the slightest. I think you've raised an interesting topic, so I responded to it, that's all.

Big cats certainly do exist (though, sadly for many species, this is in ever decreasing numbers in their native countries), so no question about that; and some have very occasionally been found over the years in the UK countryside. However, in recent years, this has been down to well documented escapes from a zoo or a private collection (like that poor lynx that was shot dead by a police marksman after escaping from a zoo a couple of years ago).

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a few people released big cats into the wild in Britain around the time of the 1976 Dangerous Animals Act (or unlawfully kept 'pets' after this date). Whether or not any released or escaped big cats survived to form any sort of sustainable breeding population (in the long term) currently appears to remain as conjecture. Also, if it were that easy for big cats to survive as a viable breeding population in the UK countryside, then why is the native Scottish wildcat (a small cat) on the verge of extinction?

All I have done is look at the reports you quoted as logically as I can and asked some questions (to anyone who reads them) This isn't being cynical or antagonistic, it's viewing things scientifically and looking for definitive scientific proof one way or the other. To date, I've not seen a single good, clear photo or video to back up any claimed big cat sighting in the wild in the UK. Based on that I have to remain open minded on the subject, and my current reasoning would be that it is hypothetically possible for a very small number of individual big cats to survive in the British countryside undetected (or very occasionally seen), but it's far more likely for a 'sighting' to be a false alarm and a case of mistaken identity. After all, there is relatively frequent and well documented proof of false sightings happening.

I regularly use infra-red night vision cameras, a thermal imager and trail cameras in the British countryside, so I know the limitations and constraints of such equipment, so I was speaking from some practical experience in that respect. I've yet to see any recordings from my cameras that I can't explain or attribute to 'native' British wildlife or weather phenomenon, apart from on one occasion when monitoring the interior of a disused garage, where a cloth overhanging a workbench briefly moved with no visible cause. This was most likely due a mouse moving it from behind, but I suspect that some 'ghost hunters' might have had that plastered all over the internet as proof of the paranormal by now?

The Sherlock Holmes quote springs to mind here "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.". Sadly, I've not got beyond eliminating 'all which is possible' yet. Hope this makes sense. (y):)

Thanks for getting back with such a detailed response. As you say at the top of your reply, it's an interesting topic but as I explain how your initial responses came across to me, in marked contrast to this latest one , you might appreciate why I reacted like I did.

The first post was fine but you then appear to ridicule the whole subject which obviously was centred around the 20 year experience of an ex Forestry/Ranger worker and the research results of Dr Hemming (Associate professor) at the Royal Agricultural College,Cirencester who had carried out a six year research programme into the subject, by posting a trail camera photo of a domestic cat (maybe yours) with a mouse in its mouth saying. "If that's a small deer in its mouth then I think we're in big trouble" with a ;) Emoji which, by the way I think is an Emoji that should be withdrawn from selection on any forum. Research shows that whatever the writer meant to convey it can be misunderstood and come across as sarcasm ,one-upmanship or as in this case, being flippant. So, I'm now on the defensive and pretty annoyed.

Your next post was yesterday at 11.26 am after you'd googled for youtube footage stating that "it gave me a good laugh,anyway"' going into detail and at the end,,Sorry, but it was definitely Tiddles the moggy out mousing,not the Beast of (add alliterative place name)" An alliteration is tongue-twister. Did you mean that ? It all has the tone of sarcasm about it. In the the last paragraph you ask "Could it be that a large proportion of sightings could be by people who see a cat-like animal and 'want to believe it's a big cat and go on to compare sightings to the paranormal or just mysteries quoting the Loch Ness Monster,Sasquatch or Yeti. Just as a counter-point that's not what Rick Minter found.

You say you weren't having a go at me about what I think or believe but I hadn't given an opinion and the way you asked questions was as if you were. Here's an example.

"So, there's the challenge, show me a photo or video that clearly shows a wild free-roaming UK big-cat as I initiated the thread that came across as speaking directly to me but you've made clear it wasn't and I accept that. To avoid this kind of misunderstanding I will never use the personal pronoun 'you' and had I been writing that I'd have written ' So, there's the challenge, if someone can show me a photo....etc. That distinction was crucial to the whole post.

You say that you looked at the reports that I quoted and your replies were to anyone who reads them but infact, you were engaging directly with me from the very first post (after the one by TCR4X4) Yesterday's post at 5.00pm. You wrote in relation to Rick Minter saying that 30,000 pumas living in the Western states of the US are rarely seen...you asked me "Any idea how vast and underpopulated the Western states are ?" That wasn't to anyone reading your replies it was to me. No-one was engaging with you at that time. Some have now and you've responded using the quote tool. I see Gremlin has responded re the Scottish wild cats.

By the way re this.." It wouldn't surprise me at all if a few people released big cats into the wild in Britain around the time of the 1976 Dangerous Animals Act"....etc

If you scroll back to my original post that's what it states at the start of paragraph three and coming from the author of the article.

At least we've come to an understanding and that's the main thing.
 
This is an open forum, where anyone can read what has been written, and respond by writing whatever they wish (within reason and subject to Moderation). So my questions were to anyone who read them, including you. I hope that clears that one up.

Alliteration isn't a tongue twister, it's 'the occurrence of the same letter or sound at the beginning of adjacent or closely connected words'. E.g. Beast of Bodmin, Panther on the Prowl, etc. Alliteration is a well-known writing style of the press and is often used in 'sensational' headlines, hence me making a passing reference to it.

If you read my posts the wrong way then I have made an effort to clear that up. Don't overanalyse what I've written, it's not poking fun at you, although I do like a good laugh (hence the cat photo and video). I firmly believe that if more people saw the funny side of things then the world would be a happier place.

I have an enquiring, practical and scientific mind; when presented with information then I will evaluate it, and, where I think it's necessary, I will question and interrogate that information or evidence. In the case of sightings of uncommon wildlife it is entirely usual for that sighting to be questioned and, if possible, verified before it can be accepted as a validated biological record, particularly where there have been no previous confirmed records of that species in that locality.

Looking at this logically, there have been a number of alleged big cat sightings in the UK, and many of these have been subsequently explained away as being mistaken identity. As I mentioned before, some of these involved large cuddly toys and garden statues, which according to press reports, resulted in the deployment of police firearms units.

Yes, I was scornful about some of the video footage and photos I saw when I carried out a brief search on the internet, and some of these did make me laugh. As I sated, I've yet to see one photograph or video clip which clearly shows a genuinely wild big cat in the UK countryside (as opposed to a known comparatively recent escapee/release). I also sought to explain why it might be that no clear images of such an animal appear to exist. However, I am not scornful about the possibility of one or two big cats being present in the UK from time to time per se. Is this where we're perhaps at cross-purposes?

I believe my reference to paranormal phenomenon was entirely justified. People may see things and fully believe what they think they saw, whether that's a big cat, Black Shuck or a ghost. However, there may well be a perfectly ordinary explanation for what that person actually saw.

I've developed a logical and analytical mindset over the years. I don't instantly jump to conclusions, I look for a logical explanation and ask myself, could there be any other likely explanation for this? For instance, teeth marks on bones; my first question would be, if there are a series of teeth marks on a bone that fall within the bite pattern range of a big cat (bearing in mind the possible size variation even within the same species of Panthera), could it be possible that these marks were actually created by multiple bite actions from a native British species such as a fox or badger gnawing at the bone - with the pattern caused by this appearing to be that of a big cat? My second question would be; is there any scientific evidence to robustly disprove my 'multiple bites' hypothesis? I would also question whether or not a hoax could have been perpetrated by a third-party. Would it be possible for someone to have faked the teeth marks (perhaps even using a big cat scull to do so) and left this evidence there to be found?

I currently have no more than a casual interest in the subject of UK big cat sightings, and I don't have the spare time to track down any peer reviewed scientific research papers on the subject. The questions I've asked above (generally and not to any specific individual) may already have been addressed, in which case if anyone has a link to that then I'd be interested in reading it once I have some spare time.

As for the 1976 Act, any big cats released around that time would have died of old age by now. Any big cats out there in the UK wild must therefore have been released or escaped after this date. Or could there be a self-sustaining UK breeding population of big cats in the wild? This would remain a hypothesis unless we are presented with robust and conclusive scientific proof.
 
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John Jules man you lads are eloquent, , erm WOW . ^^^^^^^^ you both realize most of it flew over me 'ead don't ya

It's funny I can sort of condense this with personal stuff. I f there were big cats in blighty: a continous line of native big cat, I'd be stunned .


That we have no supertangible proof in our day an age where all have camera with phone there are camera traps doing what any trap do 24/7 monitoring. On top of that we seem to have some of the best wildlife image makers who go everywhere else in the world and make cat pics and vids. But even with that knowledge all those cameras............................. still no big cat balls to the wall cast iron proof.

Then I step back a few years to somewhere in the 1980's driving a lane somewhere around Whithypool Exmoor looking for a B and B 'erm slightly lost not completely had the moon but ya know :LOL:


A fox crosses the single track lane I hit the anchors and pass slow and at an utter max of 5 M I'm staring into the eyes of a cat . I'm in an MG midget soft top So very very low to the ground hence staring into eyes not down on. I'm as sure as I can be that was a Lynx

Ha ha, Jules, ya know in many many ways I'd rather play the Father Ted and Dougal ( those lads won mensa right;)) card here and never saw that cat. But there was no distance no way to make it a fox.

So how did I see what I saw at so close a range ?.

Oh Jules, help me out please this is an aside from cats but the dates are buggiing me : I thought there was a big bit of wildlife legislation in 1981 not 76' was this two pronged ie two bits in both years...do you remember exacts? . I'm just curios as to whether I've been quoting the 1981 wildlife and countryside act wrongly for years, which would be funny as hell:LOL:.

Simply big cats are brought here from elsewhere, become a problem to keep and ,get dumped and I saw one.:). I guess it is deeply plausible that this has been going on for a good while tens of years at least. I don't see that this isn't still happening I have no proof ,

I think the likelyhood of us having a founding population for any species to begin breeding is deeply unlikely........... to have a long running native pop unknown in this tiny tiny seriously overpopulated place just seems jaw droppingly unllikely. Yes I know staffs pine martens

I watched Sir David's words last night harrowing............... I'd love it if a big cat really was living along side us and we were too dumb to know.. At presant my kin shoot a captive lynx or snow leopard cause it got out of a cage not one of either species as far as I can find ever harmed anyone............. but we brits kill them for breathing good init:(

John we had a big cat kill and one of the neighbours really upset ,both her and her brother by something, I know mate country folks and their tales. I think there is a very rational explanation behind these sightings of big cats . I'd adore it if we did have a native big cat , but just can't see it being possible sadly . It's sort of funny John I'm a sceptic but I know exactly what I saw , it's the only animal that's turrned me white mate !! . It's seeing something you just know is NOT possible but it's smack bang in your face, I suppose

If there is a native population of some form of big cat living here,

Then that would be the only logical reason not to reintroduce EU lynx here i've yet found .

take care both

stu
 
Oh Jules, help me out please this is an aside from cats but the dates are buggiing me : I thought there was a big bit of wildlife legislation in 1981 not 76' was this two pronged ie two bits in both years...do you remember exacts? . I'm just curios as to whether I've been quoting the 1981 wildlife and countryside act wrongly for years, which would be funny as hell:LOL:.

Hi Stu,

As far as I'm aware, the 1976 Dangerous Wild Animals Act was made to stop people buying and keeping dangerous wild animals without a licence and a secure and humane enclosure for them (I think the enclosure had to be inspected by the local authority to verify it was up to standard before a licence was issued to someone? But this may not be correct.).

From memory, the original 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act (which has been amended several times since) gave various levels of protection to native British wildlife and made it an offence to introduce certain non-native wild species into the wild, or to cause their spread into the wild. Don't take this as fact though, it's only what I think was the case, as I was too young to pay much attention to stuff like that in 76 and 81.

From what I can gather from videos about UK Big Cats, it might not have been specifically illegal to introduce some non-native animals into the wild in the period between the 1976 DWAA and the 1981 WCA, but it might have been the case that the authorities felt that this was covered by part/s of other less specific existing legislation? I believe it's often only after a specific need has been identified that new laws are brought in, and only if existing ones can't be successfully amended.

If anyone knows the above is incorrect then please feel free to put it right. (y)
 
There clearly were some big cats in the UK as some have been properly documented. I don't think the Dangerous Wild Animals Act is an issue now as any big cats released around then would be dead by now and the chances of two released animals that could breed meeting up and thus create a viable population would be small.

There might well be some now but there are, as far as I know no reasonable estimates, and by nature they are going to be secretive and therefore rarely seen. However, it doesn't help when some put massively out of focus photos or videos on social media and claim they have seen a big cat.

Dave
 
I recently retired as a Gamekeeper and in my 20 odd years of protecting Pheasant etc, never once did I see or shoot a Big Cat

and I spent dawn till dusk 7 days a week out in the woods and land around Somerset, so maybe they don't live in Somerset then :) :)

Les :)
 
Mr B:).buddy sorry slow, I wanted to say thanks not use likey thang, seemed bad form when you replied with the above.Hmm have a feeling I know of the DWA act but is't been forgotton :LOL: i'm probably old enough 76 was a fabulous year stunning summer found a fulmar colony................ OMG mini brit albertros to a 13 year old:runaway::LOL::LOL::LOL: and they were right there and not bothered good year !!

Sorry so slow mate seems so rude !! tough few weeks But hey better late than never.

Thank you, I was been lazy but yeah can you image me reading statute or law,

I appreciate the kindness mate it would have taken me forever to find some form of guidance. !! cheers

Back to big cats and us lot:)................ As image makers.......... who here could hand on heart go and make a piccy of a lynx say in a known area they inhabit? Probably on your own folks not a guide etc

I feel i'm ok with our wildlife but sort of wouldn't have a hope in hell with a lynx do you guys feel different?? i'm really curious as to how you feel Cats are so bright so elusive I just think they would run rings around me !

Jules Ta !!:)

thank god it's friday
 
A big cat was hit and killed outside Robinswood Hill in Gloucester Many years ago. It was kept hush but it most certainly happened.

I also have photos, albeit very poor as they were from a phone before phones really took photos of a big Paw print left at the top of the hill.

We now live in the Forest of Dean and have seen multiple sheep carcasses with the rib cages torn open and insides missing and also a number of wild boar gutted.
My wife swears she saw a big black cat crossing the road a while back too.

There Are supposedly 2000+ boar in the forest and it’s actually not that common to see them, and they are reasonably domesticated now..
I can quite believe big cats wouldn’t be seen if they didn’t want to be.

Agree, I've been just a few meters from a leopard and it was completely unseen ... until you do see it and crap yourself while reaching for a shorter lens!! In a vehicle obviously.
 
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