Birmingham cars could be banned from driving through city centre

Status
Not open for further replies.
More idiotic councillors without a clue on how to have a road system that keeps traffic moving and reduce congestion.
In our town the local council hasn't so much reduced traffic driving through, they have just done away with the 1/2hr free parking and increased parking charges. As a result the council has shot themselves in the foot, their takings from car parking have decreased and shops are starting to close down as their trade has fallen.
A section of dual carriageway is about to have its speed limit reduced from 70 mph to 50 mph to supposedly reduce pollution, it won't, it will just create more congestion. The real problem is that in that section of road is what can only be described as a chicane. It used to be a roundabout but they blocked off the bits that would have allowed the traffic to take the right hand exit from either direction. It now serves no purpose other than forcing traffic to slow to 20mph, causing congestion and pollution, before it is allowed to accelerate up to speed on the opposite side.
 
Stupid idea that will make no difference except make cash, same with the Manchester congestion zone that they are looking at doing at the moment, It will put my step brother and 8 people out of work as he would be charged £100 per day per lorry (they have 6) as they are inside the zone and have to leave and come back to the yard, to replace the trucks to avoid the charge or pay a lot less would also be unfeasible ( anything up to £100K each) for a few years so his only option is to call it a day. How many businesses will simply fold.
 
More idiotic councillors without a clue on how to have a road system that keeps traffic moving and reduce congestion.
In our town the local council hasn't so much reduced traffic driving through, they have just done away with the 1/2hr free parking and increased parking charges. As a result the council has shot themselves in the foot, their takings from car parking have decreased and shops are starting to close down as their trade has fallen.
A section of dual carriageway is about to have its speed limit reduced from 70 mph to 50 mph to supposedly reduce pollution, it won't, it will just create more congestion. The real problem is that in that section of road is what can only be described as a chicane. It used to be a roundabout but they blocked off the bits that would have allowed the traffic to take the right hand exit from either direction. It now serves no purpose other than forcing traffic to slow to 20mph, causing congestion and pollution, before it is allowed to accelerate up to speed on the opposite side.
Look at Oxford Road in Manchester they made it a busses only route, this is one of the biggest roads in and out of Manchester and its now a massive cash cow to the council and pretty much empty all the time.

Lets face it when signs like this go up at a T junction its time to give up, Manchester has loads of these.

0_230218roadsigns6.jpg
 
In principle a good idea I think, but alternative solutions need to be in place first.

In my home town of Cheltenham, the past 18 months has seen an effective ban on private motorists in the town centre through the closure of what is known locally as 'Boots corner'.

After an extensive (and very controversial) trial lasting a year and a half the decision has surprisingly been reversed and traffic is once again moving through as before.

The main problem (in my view) has been the lack of alternative routes or infrastructure to cope with the change.

A number of previously fairly quiet residential streets in the town had become choked with vehicles all day long with local and very vocal residents becoming understandably unhappy.

Retailers complained that footfall was down. Shoppers and visitors to the town centre however preferred the absence of traffic.

The issue of 'Boots corner' has been almost as divisive as Brexit in Cheltenham.

Until appropraite infrastructure in the form of alternative traffic routes and/or convenient public transport are implemented first then any plans to prohibit traffic from urban centres seem doomed to fail to me.
 
I also say this is great news. All the Mr Bumps can joyfully move there and we will have a nice and sound green terror free environment elsewhere. I also suggest building a nice tall wall around the ring road and maybe we should talk to Trump about it. I believe he has good drawings and a good team of engineers.
 
Basically I am already dropping clients in Birmingham central in the anticipation of congestion charge. This on top actually makes little difference for me personally but will screw over local residents and all the mega-business out there. Good luck on relying on trains only for the footfall. The Bullring Debenhams could be next if this is followed through.
I shall only take on large commercial projects or work outside of centre for now, and charges will have to go up. They can complain to the council if they wish. For now I have no need or desire to visit that hellhole again.
 
A section of dual carriageway is about to have its speed limit reduced from 70 mph to 50 mph to supposedly reduce pollution, it won't, it will just create more congestion.
It isn't roads that create congestion but driver behaviour. If road users kept longer gaps and drove cooperatively rather than aggressively many congestion points would be less problematic.
 
It isn't roads that create congestion but driver behaviour. If road users kept longer gaps and drove cooperatively rather than aggressively many congestion points would be less problematic.
This road does, coming from my direction, it is 70mph, straight down to 40mph, not too much of a problem for those that know the road, the problem arises for those unfamiliar with the road. Then about 100yrds further along the speed limit reduces to 20mph because the council refuses to do away with a roundabout that they had blocked off access to the right hand exits probably 20 yrs ago.
 
Then about 100yrds further along the speed limit reduces to 20mph because the council refuses to do away with a roundabout that they had blocked off access to the right hand exits probably 20 yrs ago.
It still wouldn't be so much of a problem if drivers maintained a good sized gap at all times.

There have been a number of experiments which show that the shorter the average gap between cars the greater the speed reduction on approaching and travelling through an obstruction because more cars enter the obstructed area than can leave it. Where traffic controls are used to enforce a suitable gap the time taken to negotiate the obstruction is reduced with the result that everyone benefits.
 
As someone who lives just outside Birmingham and drives in and around the city, this is rubbish. The infrastructure just isn't there. There's gridlocked traffic much of the time. Selfridges have raised their parking charges and it's just not financially worth it.
 
It still wouldn't be so much of a problem if drivers maintained a good sized gap at all times.

There have been a number of experiments which show that the shorter the average gap between cars the greater the speed reduction on approaching and travelling through an obstruction because more cars enter the obstructed area than can leave it. Where traffic controls are used to enforce a suitable gap the time taken to negotiate the obstruction is reduced with the result that everyone benefits.
None of which will change the fact that the section of road that they are going to reduce the speed limit from 50 to 70 will have no impact on congestion or emissions, the latter being the primary reason for the reduction, because there is half a roundabout in each direction where the speed limit is 20mph that causes a bottleneck, causes traffic to build up, more cars braking and accelerating within one area and increasing the emissions compared to if the road passed straight through unencumbered and not forcing emissions higher than they should be.
 
where the speed limit is 20mph that causes a bottleneck,
Clearly: better traffic control is the answer. Whenever you have speed reductions you need to start slowing the traffic well back from the critical point, which is the basis on which smart motorways operate. Of course that does require the infrastructure to operate but it's the only practical solution on our crowded roads. Given the state of local government finances I can't see your redundant roundabout being cleared away and I'm guessing there's a good reason for the 20MPH limit. That only leaves active traffic management as an option to reduce the congestion you describe.
 
Clearly: better traffic control is the answer. Whenever you have speed reductions you need to start slowing the traffic well back from the critical point, which is the basis on which smart motorways operate. Of course that does require the infrastructure to operate but it's the only practical solution on our crowded roads. Given the state of local government finances I can't see your redundant roundabout being cleared away and I'm guessing there's a good reason for the 20MPH limit. That only leaves active traffic management as an option to reduce the congestion you describe.
Smart motorways don't work. For one simple reason, you need a constant update of whether lanes are shut or the speed limit has been altered.
There is a video that crops up on facebook and I daresay it can be found on youtube. Basically a couple of motorists have reacted accordingly to the signs on a motorway gantry as they approached it, problem is the gantry signs have changed to their default speed as the motorists passed under it. The two motorists proceed to block everyone behind them because they feel they are following the signs instructions, even though the irate motorists behind them are trying to tell them the restriction has been lifted.
I have travelled on sections of smart motorway where as I approached, the speed restriction has been lifted, only to arrive at the next gantry to find the speed restriction is still active.
 
Smart motorways don't work. For one simple reason, you need a constant update of whether lanes are shut or the speed limit has been altered.
So for up to a mile there will be people travelling more slowly than they can, until they get to the next sign with the updated limit and speed up. This is not a complete disaster, the drivers behind will have seen the sign change and understand the reason why the people ahead haven't sped up yet. If they start gesticulating then they are complete idiots and probably need to have their licences revoked.

Round my way the smart motorways on the M4 and M5 help a lot, with situational four lane running and reducing the maximum speed to 50 in rush hour which goes a long way to counter the ripple effect by people doing 70mph while following too close with occasional confidence dabs on the brakes rather than just leaving an extra 30 yards gap. The days when there would be solid traffic most evenings in rush hour around north and west Bristol are gone. Still bad on Fridays in summer because the whole country wants to go to Cornwall for the weekend by car (perhaps with a caravan attached) and there are just too many vehicles.
 
If they start gesticulating then they are complete idiots and probably need to have their licences revoked.
This is why the critical part of a smart traffic system is enforcement. The surveilance component reassures the ordinary driver who then feels the confidence to obey the signs and that feeds back into a general calming of the whole flow.
 
It's already bad enough they took the short term spaces away from certain areas near Brindley Place, business has dropped there. The Inner Ring Road charge will also damage business.

I won't be able to get to my gym despite having a car in the lowest tax bracket, emissions wise... thanks to the age limits.

It's always money grabbing in the guise of environmentally friendly.

Believe me the traffic outside of town was waaaaay worse today, and the congestion zone hasn't even begun yet. For anybody local, it took me 1 hour to get from Spring Hill to Erdington, normally 25 mins max in average rush hour. Not happy.

I try to avoid it as much as possible to be honest. I was happy to get work locally but now less so.
 
As someone who lives just outside Birmingham and drives in and around the city, this is rubbish. The infrastructure just isn't there. There's gridlocked traffic much of the time. Selfridges have raised their parking charges and it's just not financially worth it.

Going down the A38 from North to South will be a nightmare, and that's without them rerouting it. Older vehicles simply won't be able to.
 
So for up to a mile there will be people travelling more slowly than they can, until they get to the next sign with the updated limit and speed up. This is not a complete disaster, the drivers behind will have seen the sign change and understand the reason why the people ahead haven't sped up yet. If they start gesticulating then they are complete idiots and probably need to have their licences revoked.
That only works for the people who have seen the speed limit actively change, it doesn't help those who come along 30 seconds later.
 
it doesn't help those who come along 30 seconds later.
If you drive to the road conditions it's no problem: you just go with the flow.
 
If you drive to the road conditions it's no problem: you just go with the flow.
You can't go with the flow if it isn't flowing though and that is the problem. Reducing speed limits when traffic is heavy, just makes matters worse. With a 70mph speed limit, ignoring those that speed, the lanes will be travelling at different speeds meaning changing lanes is a lot easier.
When a reduced speed limit is enforced, you suddenly have multiple lanes all travelling at the lower speed limit. More cars in the same space and a very high chance of a car being beside you travelling at the same speed. If you wish to change lane, you can't speed up because you may set off a camera so you are forced to slow down or brake to fall in behind the car beside you, as a result the car behind you will have to slow and brake, the car behind them does the same and so on and so on, causing congestion and tail backs. Very rarely can you drive through a reduced speed limit zone at the allowed limit. The braking and slowing has a knock on effect as it gets further back down the line until it gets to the point that cars are actually having to stop.
Keep the speed limit at 70 and the cars can keep moving because no one is needing to slow down.
 
You can't go with the flow if it isn't flowing though and that is the problem. Reducing speed limits when traffic is heavy, just makes matters worse. With a 70mph speed limit, ignoring those that speed, the lanes will be travelling at different speeds meaning changing lanes is a lot easier.
When a reduced speed limit is enforced, you suddenly have multiple lanes all travelling at the lower speed limit. More cars in the same space and a very high chance of a car being beside you travelling at the same speed. If you wish to change lane, you can't speed up because you may set off a camera so you are forced to slow down or brake to fall in behind the car beside you, as a result the car behind you will have to slow and brake, the car behind them does the same and so on and so on, causing congestion and tail backs. Very rarely can you drive through a reduced speed limit zone at the allowed limit. The braking and slowing has a knock on effect as it gets further back down the line until it gets to the point that cars are actually having to stop.
Keep the speed limit at 70 and the cars can keep moving because no one is needing to slow down.

Official findings, which you may or may not accept, contradict you. A Highways Agency report into the first six months of the M42 scheme, treating it as an experiment, showed a reduction in variability journey times of up to 27% and a reduction in the average number of accidents from 5 per month to 1.5, warning that accident statistics would normally be compared over a three-year period. It also claimed a 10% fall in pollution and 4% fall in fuel consumption. Academic research of worldwide schemes, analysed on a statistical basis, does appear to support this.
 
Keep the speed limit at 70 and the cars can keep moving because no one is needing to slow down.

50 or 70 is still snail speed. Look at Germany. None of that nonsense in most places, except where it is really needed. And most importantly the roads are good quality and do not severely damage suspension in a very short period of time. UK roads are absolute disgrace now - so much so 70 is perhaps the max safe speed on the best maintained parts, others are near enough pure danger.
 
This is why the critical part of a smart traffic system is enforcement. The surveilance component reassures the ordinary driver who then feels the confidence to obey the signs and that feeds back into a general calming of the whole flow.

If only we were all 'ordinary' drivers. A lot of drivers will speed up in between the gantries, catching up with other cars and sitting close behind them to get them to change lanes. Some will travel slightly slower and some slightly faster than the indicated speed, so bunching occurs again.

As far as surveillance is concerned, I sometimes wonder if the people who decide the speed have gone for a tea break. I drive a lot of miles (18k in the last 6 months) and the number of times I've sat at 50 or 60 with next to no other cars around me is quite surprising. After a few miles the speed limit goes back to normal and no sign of why they were on (please don't tell me they must've worked and the traffic had cleared :rolleyes:).

They should start by banning lorries from lane 3 (on a 4 lane motorway), it's ridiculous when there is 3 lanes taken by lorries doing a 3 mile overtake.
Enforcing the law on lane hogging would certainly help, the police can't enforce this easily, but I bet they have enough cameras to keep this monitored somehow.
As for city centres. If I had the option to enforce it, I'd ban HGV's from moving between 6am and 9am. Probably not practical to do, but would reduce traffic considerably, allowing people to get to work. Once the rush has gone the lorries can do their thing.
 
Official findings, which you may or may not accept, contradict you. A Highways Agency report into the first six months of the M42 scheme, treating it as an experiment, showed a reduction in variability journey times of up to 27% and a reduction in the average number of accidents from 5 per month to 1.5, warning that accident statistics would normally be compared over a three-year period. It also claimed a 10% fall in pollution and 4% fall in fuel consumption. Academic research of worldwide schemes, analysed on a statistical basis, does appear to support this.
Pollution can obviously be measured from the roadside, but how can they know if peoples fuel consumption has reduced.
I would be willing to bet that the revenue from people breaking the speed limit has gone up through those zones and that is the reason why they reckon they work, because they sure as hell don't work when I have to drive through them.
 
As far as surveillance is concerned, I sometimes wonder if the people who decide the speed have gone for a tea break. I drive a lot of miles (18k in the last 6 months) and the number of times I've sat at 50 or 60 with next to no other cars around me is quite surprising. After a few miles the speed limit goes back to normal and no sign of why they were on (please don't tell me they must've worked and the traffic had cleared :rolleyes:).
I'm generally an advocate for managed motorways and my experience of using a section daily is that they are a definite positive for traffic flow, but agree the speed with which the control rooms respond to incidents being cleared is a problem that needs to be addressed.
 
but agree the speed with which the control rooms respond to incidents being cleared is a problem that needs to be addressed.
There's a new series of "The Motorway" on Freeview Channel 5 at the moment. It's very revealing about how difficult it can be for the services (both emergency and support) to actually get to an incident. The number of idiots who will pull over into the hard shoulder when the other lanes are blocked is quite worrying.
 
the speed with which the control rooms respond to incidents being cleared is a problem that needs to be addressed.


It would be easy to address the problem - restaff the control rooms to what they were 30 years ago! These days, it might be 1 person dealing with all a county's roads including motorways and that person will only have one pair of eyes and hands (but probably half a dozen phones in their office...)
 
There's a new series of "The Motorway" on Freeview Channel 5 at the moment. It's very revealing about how difficult it can be for the services (both emergency and support) to actually get to an incident. The number of idiots who will pull over into the hard shoulder when the other lanes are blocked is quite worrying.
Germany has this solved. Whenever there is standstill traffic people move over to the extreme side of whichever lane they are in to leave a clear route through should any emergency services need to get through.

I don't know if it is a rule as part of their highway code equivalent, or just large scale common sense. But either way, we don't have it here.
 
I'm generally an advocate for managed motorways and my experience of using a section daily is that they are a definite positive for traffic flow, but agree the speed with which the control rooms respond to incidents being cleared is a problem that needs to be addressed.
They would work so much better if the people who thought it all up, actually realised that cars are actually capable of travelling at alternative speeds to numbers ending in 0. The first reduced limit should be 65, that way motorists can just back off when they see the sign without having to brake and will prevent the concertina effect. Then keep reducing the speed in 5mph increments.
I have been on the M25 at 5 in the morning on a Sunday and they have had 50mph zones for no reason at all. That time of Sunday morning, you're lucky to see another car travelling in the opposite direction, let alone the same direction.
I suspect there are 5'5" tall idiots in the control rooms who get off on exercising their power.
 
I suspect there are 5'5" tall idiots in the control rooms who get off on exercising their power.
Much more likely that things are happening that you don't see.
 
What, on an empty motorway?
Maintenance crews are out at those times because it's empty. There are all sorts of things going on through the night and speed limits could be set for any number of good reasons.
 
... what can only be described as a chicane. It used to be a roundabout but they blocked off the bits that would have allowed the traffic to take the right hand exit from either direction. It now serves no purpose other than forcing traffic to slow to 20mph ...
That's the Fortune Of War roundabout on the A127 at Laindon, isn't it? God, I hate that. The most stupid thing I've ever seen.

If anybody else is curious - here it is on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5839395,0.4246272,223m/data=!3m1!1e3
 
That's the Fortune Of War roundabout on the A127 at Laindon, isn't it? God, I hate that. The most stupid thing I've ever seen.

If anybody else is curious - here it is on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5839395,0.4246272,223m/data=!3m1!1e3
It is mental, but don't worry, it is al being fixed with a new 50mph limit. :rolleyes:

Apparently there is is a main feed to a substation and/or a gas main that was located in the centre of the roundabout when it was originally built which stop the road from being straightened out. The argument is that the cost and time required to relocate the services and then straighten the road is such that leaving as is is the better option when considering the amount of disruption that work would create.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top