Bit of a Rant , The Cost of Photography

I'm a full time professional and I still use my 6 year old Canon 60D 90% of the time. It's obsolete now (in terms of not being made and has been surpassed twice with newer models). I use this together with about £500 of mid-range lenses.

My best friend (an amateur photographer who doesn't earn much in his job) bought the Canon 5DIII when it came out together with the 70-200mm with a £5k loan which he's still paying off. Now he's looking at the upcoming 5D mk IV which he will have to take out another loan for. In all, he'll have spent close to £10k on equipment in the time I've managed perfectly with my equipment.

My point is, his photos are no better than mine. In fact, his knowledge of photography falls behind mine in many areas. So why does he cripple himself financially for no perceived gain?

That's not to say better and newer equipment won't yield better results in the right hands, of course it will.

I find having 'less able' gear is better at helping you learn. It makes photography more analogue in some respects.

It brings me back to the same old issue of clients and customers saying "I was going to take the photos myself because I've just bought a really nice camera". Numerous times I've had customers reveal better equipment than me. I could easily go out and get newer and higher spec bodies and lenses, but my gear rarely hinders my results, so why should I bother?
 
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I follow one rule of aquisition for photographic happiness: always try to buy used and when you can't, never buy new unless it's been discounted by at least 50% of its true retail price. In consequence, the few losses I've made when selling stuff have mostly been balanced by the occassional profit, which makes photography an inexpensive hobby and (at one time) a profitable business.

The alternative, if your artistic feelings mean you can't descend to such crass commercialism, is to so arrange things that you have rich and generous parents. :coat:
 
Sejanus Aelianus said:
I follow one rule of aquisition for photographic happiness: always try to buy used and when you can't, never buy new unless it's been discounted by at least 50% of its true retail price.
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Almost all of my gear, apart from my first digital camera, has been bought from the classified ads on here and I have never been let down in the quality of the goods and the savings which have been substantial.
.
 
My Best Beloved and I recently went on a photo safari in the Cotswolds. After a lot of "should I or shouldn't I" debate with myself, I decided to take my Nikon D610 along with the 24-85mm f3.5-4.5 G VR ED instead of my little Fujifilm X30. She took her aged Nikon D3100 with its plastic fantastic 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 VR kit lens. We had a good time and came back home with some nice images. Now, here's the rub. While I was downloading the images that we took to Lightroom, I was astounded, and not for the first time, by the sheer image quality from that simple Nikon D3100. When it was new, we both belonged to a local camera club, and my wife produced many competition winners with that camera, which had to be mounted 16x20" prints, so there was nowhere to hide! There were other entries alongside hers, made with Canon 5Ds and L glass, Nikon D3s and equally expensive glass, but the D3100 still produced the goods. I looked on Amazon to see what a D3100 would cost now, and it can be had used for £160.00. Combined with a little bit of talent, it is still a winner and will take on the pro's anytime. You don't need L glass and full frame to make good images!
 
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Graham Serretta said:
Combined with a little bit of talent, it is still a winner and will take on the pro's anytime. !
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Anytime? No it won't

Stick a plant pot in the middle of your garden and your camera will be as good as anyone elses and take as good a pic as anyoen elses..

Come to a dark indoor sporting event requiring iso 256,000 f2.8 plus fast shutter...and still get publishable pictures and your going to fail

OK one extreme to the other above but you get the jist...I agree with most of what you said bar the "anytime"... thats complete tosh :)
 
I have been through loads of different cameras and systems in the last few years. I thought that having better kit would make my pictures better. Guess what- it didn't! Now I shoot with a Canon 60D and cheap 17-50, and my images are they best they've been.

Of course people like to have the latest and greatest and as @KIPAX says there are going to be situations for professionals where having a high end camera ( or at least a camera with certain capabilities ) will be essential. But for the rest of us it simply comes down to how much you want to pay vs what you want to get out of it.

If someone can afford top end gear and only uses it to take pictures of their cat then thats cool. If someone else can't and uses a 10 year old camera then thats also cool.

It's worth having a look at photography magazines from a few years ago. Look at the top end cameras then and how much they cost vs how much they cost used today. It just shows that what was considered high end a few years ago becomes low end very quickly. But the pictures they took are still great.

I also think that ( and this was something I was guilty of for a long time ) pixel peeping is so detrimental to enjoying your photographs. Seriously, unless you're producing images for advertising or something similar, then no-one else cares ( apart from other photographers on forums...) about how your picture looks at 100%. Once I stopped this I found I was much happier with my images.

It's all about using what you have, and like I said in my last post the worst thing you can do is compare.
 
Probably spent just north of £2K on photo stuff this week and I know that 99.99% of people here would never buy those items, I have all I need but never all I would like, just because I earn by doing this does not mean that I also do not have to make choices, I buy gear on the basis that it generates a return, when I did it for a hobby that return was pleasure - the right gear makes the impossible possible and the possible even easier but the truth of the matter is it is what you have between the ears that makes the best photographers, not what you have in front of the eyes.

MIke
 
KIPAX said:
Anytime? No it won't

Stick a plant pot in the middle of your garden and your camera will be as good as anyone elses and take as good a pic as anyoen elses..

Come to a dark indoor sporting event requiring iso 256,000 f2.8 plus fast shutter...and still get publishable pictures and your going to fail

OK one extreme to the other above but you get the jist...I agree with most of what you said bar the "anytime"... thats complete tosh :)
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You can't argue with this guy here... when it comes to sports shooting, he knows his onions.


I still maintain though: Sports, Wildlife, Press and Macro are probably the only types of photography that actually NEED expensive gear.
 
gramps said:
Brilliant ... compulsory reading.
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Christ... I've been saying IDENTICAL stuff in here for years and everyone argues... read the same stuff in an article and it's brilliant. LOL

Some people baffle me... Most people baffle me if I'm honest. They are their own worst enemies.
 
gramps said:
There's a difference ... the writer of the article was polite. :)
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LOL. You're an idiot. I think I may have told you so on several occasions. If I find a way to call you an idiot politely, will you then believe me?
 
Pookeyhead said:
LOL. You're an idiot. I think I may have told you so on several occasions. If I find a way to call you an idiot politely, will you then believe me?
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Oh you have many times, QED.
 
"Oi!.. you, you old f**k, there's a piano about to fall on your head, get the **** out of the way"

"How rude... I'll not take HIS advice thank you very much!


Splat.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Christ... I've been saying IDENTICAL stuff in here for years and everyone argues... read the same stuff in an article and it's brilliant. LOL

Some people baffle me... Most people baffle me if I'm honest. They are their own worst enemies.
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the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result....
 
Rapscallion said:
the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result....
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We've just witnessed the same things getting a different result though.
 
After reading the opening post and then every page of this thread I hope the OP has changed his/her attitude and is now feeling more tolerant of folk with expensive gear. ..competent or not.

I'm lucky to never have felt that gear envy in any walk of life, which is nice ... and some of my peers have the most awesome power hammers, furnaces, giant linishers etc etc!
 
It is natural I think when you love something and invest time in it to be a wee bit envious of others who have expensive gear and perhaps shoot entirely in automatic mode, don't value what they have. That's life!
I second the point about buying secondhand. I only bought one new camera in my life and it was a mistake. A Sony A6000. I feel like I got swept up in the hype of something. Another reason to let the dust settle and get gear when it has been around a little while, then read the reviews from people who have used it a few years. Some people want to have the latest tech too and some don't mind so much. Maybe some day I will be able to spend a couple of thousand on a brand new camera but I suspect I would have much more enjoyment using the money on a secondhand body or two and a few old gems of lenses. Making money or not from this, you make the most of the money you have anyway. It's just common sense.
 
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gothgirl said:
Sorry for the whinging post, but I just needed a bit of a vent to like minded people.

Everyone knows that photography is an expensive hobby, however there's always been that age old adage of "Only a poor workmen blames his tools" ... Which Is true...to a degree.

I agree that skill is a huge part of it but also there's only so much someone can do with a £100 camera and kit lens , compared to someone carrying £1000's worth of kit , people with the money are going to always have the advantage as no matter how good you are if you get two people with the same skills and a kit lens can't compete with L glass.

If someone really knows what they are doing , and has the money for good kit , then fair do's to them , but I've spent years , really getting into photography and I believe that I've improved a lot from where I started , I've got some shots that I'm damn proud of despite the fact that the majority of my lenses are plastic fantastic and kit lenses.

What really makes me sad is to see that some people can just throw money at something , and get mad when they're not taking fantastic photos straight away , I'm getting tired of seeing whinging posts on various places such as forums , facebook and flickr etc of people posting images and ranting at why they're not perfect , when they have such a good expensive camera , and how crap the camera is etc.
These are photos with beginner mistakes such as exposure and focus... yet read the meta and they've been taken on hugely expensive cameras and L glass etc , the people who throw the money around and think that an expensive camera will make them a good photographer , no effort needed.

It gets me so sad aswell to see people who think they can throw £1000 at kit , then call themselves a professional photographer too.. I've seen so many "professionals" in my field that make such horrendous mistakes on photos they are charging people for (Terrible editing , bad focus , blur etc) but they've got all the expensive gear , shop , website etc so people go to them.

I would love to be a profesional photographer , I would love to buy L glass , Full Frame and really work at it... and I know I'm not alone in this , but it just makes me really sad to see people who just don't seem to care about learning anything , because they think they can throw more money at it and that will be the answer.

It's different when you want to buy a better lens because you've practiced , learnt and know that you've met the limits of your current Lens and you want something sharper, something faster etc.
to someone who's just throwing loads of money at something and buying the most expensive one they can , because they think having an expensive camera is all that makes a photographer

Sorry guys

Rant over.
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No doubt there are some people out there that fit the description that you are giving, but can I put forward the thought that not everyone out there is as you describe and possibly making those mistakes for the reasons you state. Now I'm likely not in the category that has caused the rant, as money is a problem for me. I have a Nikon D3000 and a D3200 (both second hand) and both acquired within the last year. I love photography with my heart, body and soul, but since I had a brain virus in my 20s and don't have the money or time to go on a course or get one to one tutorial I am having to teach myself. I have got the manual and I got the book for 'dummies' (appropriate you might say). I also got the Nikon magazine monthly and have another digital book for beginners, but still I struggle with settings on manual. I got a big stopper and I've been out 3 times to try and use it and each time I have found I have something missing with the equipment, the wrong piece of equipment, or I'm practising in the wrong place (waterfall rather than seascape).

I may do something really well one time, with lots of devout concentration and when I come to do it the next time I have forgotten to change the ISO or something like that, so inevitably it takes me a good long time to get to where I need to be through trial and error and often I can miss that golden moment.

My point is... There will be others out there like me, who might achieve better with a more expensive camera (one that has a movable screen for instance), they may feel that putting all they have into the equipment might give them that little extra to help them and they may not always achieve an amazing photo, but they strive to and some times they will. Is that luck? Fluke? or determination not to let the other things they have no control over (illness) get the better of them and not giving up?

No one would know I had been ill by the way. I function pretty well on the outside and I went back to education and did a lot better than first time round, so you can't always see illness or the things illness can leave a person with. Now I'm in my 40's people generally just laugh and tell me they are forgetful too, but spending your life continually having to read the same page to try and get the information to sink in can be a tad frustrating and that is how it is for me. I'll read up on what I want to do, get to the location and I can't remember and taking the book with you is not really practical. I take it in the car and read again before starting out and still something will be forgotten. The only way forward is to continually repeat and that just isn't practical.

After attending a talk by Helen Sloane today I would really like a Nikon D2, D3 or D4 camera, but even if I could afford it, I'm thinking it would be pretty pointless as I haven't mastered the ones I have got yet.

That's my moan done now :)
 
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Poppypix said:
No doubt there are some people out there that fit the description that you are giving, but can I put forward the thought that not everyone out there is as you describe and possibly making those mistakes for the reasons you state. Now I'm likely not in the category that has caused the rant, as money is a problem for me. I have a Nikon D3000 and a D3200 (both second hand) and both acquired within the last year. I love photography with my heart, body and soul, but since I had a brain virus in my 20s and don't have the money or time to go on a course or get one to one tutorial I am having to teach myself. I have got the manual and I got the book for 'dummies' (appropriate you might say). I also got the Nikon magazine monthly and have another digital book for beginners, but still I struggle with settings on manual. I got a big stopper and I've been out 3 times to try and use it and each time I have found I have something missing with the equipment, the wrong piece of equipment, or I'm practising in the wrong place (waterfall rather than seascape).

I may do something really well one time, with lots of devout concentration and when I come to do it the next time I have forgotten to change the ISO or something like that, so inevitably it takes me a good long time to get to where I need to be through trial and error and often I can miss that golden moment.

My point is... There will be others out there like me, who might achieve better with a more expensive camera (one that has a movable screen for instance), they may feel that putting all they have into the equipment might give them that little extra to help them and they may not always achieve an amazing photo, but they strive to and some times they will. Is that luck? Fluke? or determination not to let the other things they have no control over (illness) get the better of them and not giving up?

No one would know I had been ill by the way. I function pretty well on the outside and I went back to education and did a lot better than first time round, so you can't always see illness or the things illness can leave a person with. Now I'm in my 40's people generally just laugh and tell me they are forgetful too, but spending your life continually having to read the same page to try and get the information to sink in can be a tad frustrating and that is how it is for me. I'll read up on what I want to do, get to the location and I can't remember and taking the book with you is not really practical. I take it in the car and read again before starting out and still something will be forgotten. The only way forward is to continually repeat and that just isn't practical.

After attending a talk by Helen Sloane today I would really like a Nikon D2, D3 or D4 camera, but even if I could afford it, I'm thinking it would be pretty pointless as I haven't mastered the ones I have got yet.

That's my moan done now :)
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Nice post :)

Out of interest, can you elaborate on your brain virus? I had "a mystery virus" that kept me off work for a long time and I still suffer mental fatigue and fuzziness from it. I don't doubt that it was in the same league as you but it has got me interested in the subject a bit (I really like hearing how others have recovered).

If you don't want to that's cool, I'm just interested :)

edit: sorry to hijack the (somewhat perambulatory) thread.
 
Nawty said:
Nice post :)

Out of interest, can you elaborate on your brain virus? I had "a mystery virus" that kept me off work for a long time and I still suffer mental fatigue and fuzziness from it. I don't doubt that it was in the same league as you but it has got me interested in the subject a bit (I really like hearing how others have recovered).

If you don't want to that's cool, I'm just interested :)

edit: sorry to hijack the (somewhat perambulatory) thread.
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Part of the problem is I'm now an open book and find myself telling everyone my personal business lol, so no I don't mind telling you I had encephalitis. I had it very bad. Apparently a bad case could put you in a coma for 2 Weeks and I was in one for 6. It took me 2 years before I could function independently again. Having said that I was very lucky with the part of my brain that got attacked, so didn't lose motor skills or anything. I get bad mental fatigue as well. I drop like a lead balloon sometimes. If you want to know any more best to pm I think.
 
Poppypix said:
Part of the problem is I'm now an open book and find myself telling everyone my personal business lol, so no I don't mind telling you I had encephalitis. I had it very bad. Apparently a bad case could put you in a coma for 2 Weeks and I was in one for 6. It took me 2 years before I could function independently again. Having said that I was very lucky with the part of my brain that got attacked, so didn't lose motor skills or anything. I get bad mental fatigue as well. I drop like a lead balloon sometimes. If you want to know any more best to pm I think.
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Geebers! glad you're still with us and recovering well.

It's funny, at one point during my recovery (which is no way near as bad as you have experienced) I would chew the ear off anyone who would listen - when your brain starts feeling (relatively) better it seems it needs to connect with humanity. I became good friends with the postie and all my neighbours :D

I wish you well in your continued recovery :)
 
Nawty said:
Geebers! glad you're still with us and recovering well.

It's funny, at one point during my recovery (which is no way near as bad as you have experienced) I would chew the ear off anyone who would listen - when your brain starts feeling (relatively) better it seems it needs to connect with humanity. I became good friends with the postie and all my neighbours :D

I wish you well in your continued recovery :)
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After 27 years I don't think there is any more recovering to be done. This is as good as it gets lol. Thanks anyway :)
 
Sorry but I don't really understand what you're on about.... it's unfortunate that you seem to be mistaking some aspect of technical excellence for talent.
 
Poppypix said:
No doubt there are some people out there that fit the description that you are giving, but can I put forward the thought that not everyone out there is as you describe and possibly making those mistakes for the reasons you state. Now I'm likely not in the category that has caused the rant, as money is a problem for me. I have a Nikon D3000 and a D3200 (both second hand) and both acquired within the last year. I love photography with my heart, body and soul, but since I had a brain virus in my 20s and don't have the money or time to go on a course or get one to one tutorial I am having to teach myself. I have got the manual and I got the book for 'dummies' (appropriate you might say). I also got the Nikon magazine monthly and have another digital book for beginners, but still I struggle with settings on manual. I got a big stopper and I've been out 3 times to try and use it and each time I have found I have something missing with the equipment, the wrong piece of equipment, or I'm practising in the wrong place (waterfall rather than seascape).

I may do something really well one time, with lots of devout concentration and when I come to do it the next time I have forgotten to change the ISO or something like that, so inevitably it takes me a good long time to get to where I need to be through trial and error and often I can miss that golden moment.

My point is... There will be others out there like me, who might achieve better with a more expensive camera (one that has a movable screen for instance), they may feel that putting all they have into the equipment might give them that little extra to help them and they may not always achieve an amazing photo, but they strive to and some times they will. Is that luck? Fluke? or determination not to let the other things they have no control over (illness) get the better of them and not giving up?

No one would know I had been ill by the way. I function pretty well on the outside and I went back to education and did a lot better than first time round, so you can't always see illness or the things illness can leave a person with. Now I'm in my 40's people generally just laugh and tell me they are forgetful too, but spending your life continually having to read the same page to try and get the information to sink in can be a tad frustrating and that is how it is for me. I'll read up on what I want to do, get to the location and I can't remember and taking the book with you is not really practical. I take it in the car and read again before starting out and still something will be forgotten. The only way forward is to continually repeat and that just isn't practical.

After attending a talk by Helen Sloane today I would really like a Nikon D2, D3 or D4 camera, but even if I could afford it, I'm thinking it would be pretty pointless as I haven't mastered the ones I have got yet.

That's my moan done now :)
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Not really a moan, more a statement of the reality of your situation!

That you still plug on with the subject is to your credit.

Steve
 
Nostromo said:
A good 2/3 minute coffee time read
http://digital-photography-school.com/forget-pixels-awaken-artist-within/
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Another take on it all from Kirk Tuck - https://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/welcome-back-to-blog-its-time-to-get.html

"This art, hobby, profession that we passionately pursue has almost nothing to do, in its essence, with quantification, precision technical understanding, or the minor differences between the tools (cameras, lights, etc.) with which we create the photographs. At least this is true when talking about the kinds of photographs that move us to have a reaction. Photographs that go beyond documentation and transmit ideas of beauty or interpreted human relevance and experience."

"Robotically aiming techniques at a project without a cultivated taste, point of view, historical perspective and the shared knowledge of general academia is what limits the unleashing of whatever talent those students really possess. Knowing about, and having experienced the work of artists like Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Fragonard, Matisse and Klimt was/is at least as important in the making of great images as understanding the inverse square law and the fact that we are discussing digital imaging doesn't change the mix even fractionally."
 
Re the OP first post I have always believe it is not so much the camera gear that gets a good photo but the person using the camera that does. Yes an expensive camera gives more flexability with the features it can provide, but the basics still apply.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Another take on it all from Kirk Tuck - https://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/welcome-back-to-blog-its-time-to-get.html

"This art, hobby, profession that we passionately pursue has almost nothing to do, in its essence, with quantification, precision technical understanding, or the minor differences between the tools (cameras, lights, etc.) with which we create the photographs. At least this is true when talking about the kinds of photographs that move us to have a reaction. Photographs that go beyond documentation and transmit ideas of beauty or interpreted human relevance and experience."

"Robotically aiming techniques at a project without a cultivated taste, point of view, historical perspective and the shared knowledge of general academia is what limits the unleashing of whatever talent those students really possess. Knowing about, and having experienced the work of artists like Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Fragonard, Matisse and Klimt was/is at least as important in the making of great images as understanding the inverse square law and the fact that we are discussing digital imaging doesn't change the mix even fractionally."
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Love that. What a great article.
 
I'm a hobby photographer and I have a day job that pays the bills. I went from a 500d, then decided I liked the hobby enough to upgrade and bought a 7d before moving onto the 5d mk3 I have at the moment. I've just bought a used Canon TS-E 24mm and will upgrade it to the current model if it proves to be worthwhile for the pictures I take.
I've now ended up only using L lenses having upgraded them over the years.

So I'm while wondering about with my 5d mk3 people are judging me because I've spent more money than them, but they think (or quite possibly are) they're better photographers than me. They feel that in some way I don't deserve the best gear as I haven't earned it?
I really don't care. The pictures I take are for my own enjoyment. There is no other goal.

The fact that I can afford to buy the camera and glass that I want has nothing to do with my technical ability as a photographer.
I'm self taught, haven't studied particularly and I'm not a member of any camera clubs as this has always been a solo thing for me. I have no interest at all in competition and don't need to make money from photography.

As I've learned and improved I'm happier with the pictures I produce, The camera gear is only a small part of this in reality. You may be in a different place on your photography journey.


People judge the car too, they're always quick to point out that the small diesel they drive does 70 mpg while my 11 year old petrol V8 does 19 and I could have bought a far newer car for the money. The MPG question is usually the first or second one I get asked but it's not really important to me compared to my enjoyment of the car.
Again, it makes me happy so I have it. If it stops making me happy or I find something that I think will make me happier I'll get that instead,
 
on the cost argument - buy used and reduce your equipment costs by 50% or more - lots of bargains around on here - good used kit that has been looked after

from a technical standpoint the internet is full of very very good articles and information, all FOC

photography has never been "cheaper" and is more accessible than ever before or than it was in the days of film
 
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Any hobby initially can be expensive but with photography and being digital can be cheap in comparison. I can,t off hand think of any other where you can indulge in a hobby all day long for zero cost
 
Having an affordable camera kit AND the Knowledge on how to take images help.. My recently bought Nikon D3100 with an 18-55 VR lens along with a Nikon SB-400 flash with diffuser for £80.00 . Purchased an extra 18-55 lens and a Nikon Non VR 55-200 lens by bidding on a well known site. Spent less than £200..... Will keep me going for years. I do have Samsung Bridge camera which I still use....
 
One of the benefits of using Nikon is that most of the old lenses fit most of today's DSLRs.
I still use a 135mm 2.8 Ai (bought used many years ago) on my D750 as its size and weight complement my 24-85 kit zoom for walkabout photography.
ditto the 105mm Ais.
As others have said, used and re-furbed can save a lot of money. It helps to be patient when looking for bargains.
 
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