'Blackface': Dutch holiday tradition or racism?

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Interesting story on CNN.com

You know the story. Every December jolly St. Nicholas visits the children of the land -- accompanied by his servant, Black Peter, a goofy, singing, candy-giving Renaissance-clad figure in blackface, giant red lips and a curly wig.

What? That doesn't ring a bell?

It would if you lived in the Netherlands, where the visit of Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet on December 5 -- the eve of St. Nicholas' birthday -- is a longstanding tradition. But it's a tradition that's been called into question in recent years, including by Roger Ross Williams, the director of the short film "Blackface," which looks into the character and his past.

Story here.

Though the story of Zwarte Piet is said to date back hundreds of years, it was popularized in a 19th-century children's book. The character is Sinterklaas' Moorish helper, and his arrival from Spain with Sinterklaas -- who rides a white horse -- has become a yearly celebration, complete with Sinterklaas' boat pulling into a Dutch harbor and a welcoming parade. Children and adults dress up as Zwarte Piet at parties.

"It's just tradition. It has nothing to do with racism," says Ronald Livius, a commodities trader who grew up in the southern Netherlands and now lives in Switzerland.



So the question is, is someone blacking up their face to play a traditional, fictional character racism? I have seen something very similar, and whilst I remember thinking that you'd not see it in the UK, I didn't find it offensive.

What do you good people think?
 
It's nothing but a fine old Dutch tradition - some people will be offended by anything, and the more people try to appease them, the more they see the benefit in being offended. Best just leave them be. Ignoring them works for me.
 
It's not only isis that want to destroy traditions & re write history. (n)
 
I doubt it is a secret what my take is on that....To me it makes a lot more sense to celebrate St Nicholas and present presents to children opposed to celebrate Santa Klaus ;) at Christmas time and turn that into the commercial feast it has become...

But then I'm biased and undoubtedly was programmed to belief that from a very young age to such an extent I can't possibly make up my mind.
 
What I don't get is why this is referred to as Blackface. Their name is Zwarte Piet not Black Face nor "zwart gezicht".

One of the worst translations I've ever heard.
 
Come back al Jolson all is forgiven :thinking:
 
It's a very difficult one. It's an old tradition that may well be outdated in modern society.
If it was introduced now it would not be accepted or tolerated at all.
An interesting watch - seems quite a few people looked uncomfortable doing what they were in the presence of a black person.

We had a Victorian Christmas market here a couple of weeks ago and there were a few people with black faces - I personally found it quite uncomfortable - it might be some tradition but I really think some things are better left in the past.
 
It's a very difficult one. It's an old tradition that may well be outdated in modern society.
If it was introduced now it would not be accepted or tolerated at all.
An interesting watch - seems quite a few people looked uncomfortable doing what they were in the presence of a black person.

We had a Victorian Christmas market here a couple of weeks ago and there were a few people with black faces - I personally found it quite uncomfortable - it might be some tradition but I really think some things are better left in the past.


As previously posted;


Probably the case that a good portion of any complaints will be from white folk offended on behalf of black folk....ridiculous.
 
doesn't seem to have died away entirely looking around Unknown-1.jpegUnknown.jpeg
 
I used to have one. . They used to be on Roberton jars didn't they? Can't remember when the whole racism started with them though.
Yes they were from Robertsons jams and marmalades. They were deemed racist quite some years ago. Firstly their name was shortened to golly and then they were removed. I think they tried to make a comeback at some stage too but were dropped again.
 
I had loads of golly badges when I was younger. I was browsing eBay the other day and saw a golly listed, but the face in the pictures had been covered over with a big white square. Rediculous.
 
doesn't seem to have died away entirely looking around View attachment 51613View attachment 51614

I still have quite a lot of those badges. You used to collect the small tokens from the label on the jars, then send off for them

I also had one of those old, heavy cast iron moneyboxes, where you put an old penny in the hand & lift it up for the penny to go in the mouth.
 
I had loads of golly badges when I was younger. I was browsing eBay the other day and saw a golly listed, but the face in the pictures had been covered over with a big white square. Rediculous.

Aren't they Gollywogs? That's how I always remember them and what they'll always be to me. I've heard them called Gollypersons. Just PC madness. Yeh, I appreciate the last syllable on its own may be offensive to some. At the end if the day they are traditional kids toys and an advertising character off a jam jar.
 
Aren't they Gollywogs? That's how I always remember them and what they'll always be to me. I've heard them called Gollypersons. Just PC madness. Yeh, I appreciate the last syllable on its own may be offensive to some. At the end if the day they are traditional kids toys and an advertising character off a jam jar.

Agreed, I wish I knew where mine was... Like anything nowadays though, a bit like the baa baa black sheep nursery rhyme had to be changed. Now that is bloody ridiculous
 
Agreed, I wish I knew where mine was... Like anything nowadays though, a bit like the baa baa black sheep nursery rhyme had to be changed. Now that is bloody ridiculous

Pathetic ain't it.
 
I still have quite a lot of those badges. You used to collect the small tokens from the label on the jars, then send off for them

I also had one of those old, heavy cast iron moneyboxes, where you put an old penny in the hand & lift it up for the penny to go in the mouth.
My wife has one of those money boxes up in the loft somewhere.
 
Agreed, I wish I knew where mine was... Like anything nowadays though, a bit like the baa baa black sheep nursery rhyme had to be changed. Now that is bloody ridiculous
Didn't know that got changed - what are the new words?
 
The act of blacking up the face is called blackface.
Fair enough, but the celebration of Sinterklaas is not about that at all. It's an English term for a tradition that had no roots in English and it just sounds ridiculous when used in that context in English. It is designed when used in that context to bring connotations to the event that just aren't part of it.
 
Didn't know that got changed - what are the new words?

White sheep, which really gets me cross, it was and never should have been deemed racist and just taking things to far.
 
Fair enough, but the celebration of Sinterklaas is not about that at all. It's an English term for a tradition that had no roots in English and it just sounds ridiculous when used in that context in English. It is designed when used in that context to bring connotations to the event that just aren't part of it.


Yes I know. As I mentioned I have been living in a culture where something very similar takes place.
 
White sheep, which really gets me cross, it was and never should have been deemed racist and just taking things to far.

I thought that was a myth? One or two schools taught "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" and then this was spun into "Baa Baa Black Sheep is BANNED" nonsense.
 
I thought that was a myth? One or two schools taught "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" and then this was spun into "Baa Baa Black Sheep is BANNED" nonsense.

To be fair I don't know, I know my sons nursery stopped it and was changed to white and I'd heard rainbow sheep was also used.. As to quite how many nurserys and schools stopped I don't know.
 
To be fair I don't know, I know my sons nursery stopped it and was changed to white and I'd heard rainbow sheep was also used.. As to quite how many nurserys and schools stopped I don't know.

My LG was taught Black Sheep last year in her nursery, so I think it's just nursery heads making stupid decisions as opposed to anything official. I can't imagine anyone being offended by it.
 
My LG was taught Black Sheep last year in her nursery, so I think it's just nursery heads making stupid decisions as opposed to anything official. I can't imagine anyone being offended by it.

Normally I'd agree but to be honest it seems people get offended by anything these days lol
I do agree about nursery officials though and it's things like that, that cause the unnecessary grief :)
 
Normally I'd agree but to be honest it seems people get offended by anything these days lol
I do agree about nursery officials though and it's things like that, that cause the unnecessary grief :)

Usually people getting offended on other people's behalfs though lol

There have been so many stories about things being "banned" because of people being offended, which nearly always turn out to be untrue. Things like "Christmas lights renamed winter lights in case it offends Muslims" when it turns out the actual headline should be "Winter lights called winter lights because they're on over winter, not just Christmas"
 
Usually people getting offended on other people's behalfs though lol

There have been so many stories about things being "banned" because of people being offended, which nearly always turn out to be untrue. Things like "Christmas lights renamed winter lights in case it offends Muslims" when it turns out the actual headline should be "Winter lights called winter lights because they're on over winter, not just Christmas"

Haha the first bit is very true, it's a bit like Tp lol :D
 
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