British Cycling. Clean or Not?

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Ricardodaforce

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So UK Anti-Doping officials have visited British Cycling headquarters as part of an investigation into allegations of wrongdoing in the sport. The timings and nature of Wiggins' TUEs. New allegations relating to Team Sky. Tour de France wins and Olympic success.

Is British Cycling clean or has the success been obtained through nefarious means?
 
If the governing bodies allowed the use of the drugs, they allowed the use of them. As for the timings, that was very... lucky!
 
Ricardodaforce said:
So UK Anti-Doping officials have visited British Cycling headquarters as part of an investigation into allegations of wrongdoing in the sport. The timings and nature of Wiggins' TUEs. New allegations relating to Team Sky. Tour de France wins and Olympic success.

Is British Cycling clean or has the success been obtained through nefarious means?
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so far i've seen nothing that's been outside the regulations... yes, it's definitely been gaming the rules to within a micron of acceptability, and i'd say questionable both ethically and morally, but, nothing so far that's actually been outside the rules... I'm certainly no Sky fanboy - personally I think most times they really try and win a race, the race ends up as dull as ditchwater from a spectators viewpoint - but I wouldn't actually get the pitchforks and burning brands out just yet - the moment there's some hard proof of actual cheating - i.e. breaking the rules, not getting as close to breaking them as possible without doing so, then I'll call for peoples heads on poles...

I think that the people that have a very black/white view of the sport are generally likely to be the "newcomers" who aren't versed in the sports origins and historys of abuse - pre regulation, and post regulation of substances... - so , when they were told "we're clean 100%" they believed it. I think that Sky are probably as clean as any other of the pro tour teams, and probably cleaner than most of the successful second tier (and below) teams - mainly because they're higher profile, win more and are tested more - so they're at least clean during competition. Sadly, PED usage is still going on (if not necessarily rife) right the way down to elite (and sometimes below) amature level - both here, on the continent, and from conversations I've had with friends in the US it's still going on over the pond as well...

Still - if you subjected football and rugby players to the same barrage of out of competition and post event testing, I think you'd get a much higher proportion of positives... and don't get me started on Tennis players. If ever the full results from Operación Puerto were to come out and every one of the blood-bags be named, there'd be some red faces in the spanish football leagues I'm guessing ;)
 
I have to say that it doesn't look good at all for Team Sky/British Cycling.
I used to believe in them (probably more to do with hope and misguided patriotism), but after Chris Froome's TUE right before the Tour of Romandie in 2014, I started to have doubts. We were always fed this "marginal gains" spiel to explain away the advances and the victories, but it seems as though they were probably supplemented by - "supplements".
Team Sky did not sign up to the MPCC (movement for clean cycling) when it was formed, and that is notable, because teams who belong to MPCC rest their riders when they are "ill" rather than administer TUE's to keep them going.
The BBC documentary "Catch me if you can" covered doping in a very thorough way, and showed how even a short course of "micro dosing" with EPO was virtually undetectable, yet allowed substantial performance gains.
John Tiernen Locke, the banned ex Sky rider, has made allegations that Tramadol was freely available when he was at Team Sky, and this is a very powerful painkiller.
As for doping in amateur cycling in the UK, there are doping controls at major races, but very few riders have tested positive.
If we look at the UKAD site, the main offenders seem to be from Rugby and Boxing.
As Mark said, if all the names from Operacion Puerto were revealed then it would throw the sporting World into chaos - but it will not happen, because there is too much money at stake and too many important people involved.
 
i would be very surprised if there is anything naighty with UK or Sky, Braisford is a mega micro manager.
I think he smells every single p*** they take personally.
 
Mr Bump said:
p***
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Did you mean "Pill"

I trust NO sport these days for being totally clean when it comes to chemical enhancement. Its a sign of the times. I also don't rate a lot of sporting achievements, in fact I am totally disillusioned by all the revelations of drug use in competitive sports when Big money endorsements are the real goal in the end.

I am still a motorsport fan, WRC, F1, Fe and some others.
 
Interesting piece by David Walsh today. He does seem to have his teeth into it, and if anyone can find out, it's him.
 
I don't think Team Sky have done anything illegal, but I do think all TUE should be made public at the time of application. If teams want to be truly transparent then this has to happen. What has to stop is taking medication "just in case" which is what seems to have happened with Bradley Wiggins.
 
[QUOTE="Philip., post: 7582214, member: 83871"]I don't think Team Sky have done anything illegal, but I do think all TUE should be made public at the time of application. If teams want to be truly transparent then this has to happen. What has to stop is taking medication "just in case" which is what seems to have happened with Bradley Wiggins.[/QUOTE]


As far as I am concerned, that is doping, because it is taking performance enhancing drugs when you do not need to.
 
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andy700 said:
[QUOTE="Philip., post: 7582214, member: 83871"]I don't think Team Sky have done anything illegal, but I do think all TUE should be made public at the time of application. If teams want to be truly transparent then this has to happen. What has to stop is taking medication "just in case" which is what seems to have happened with Bradley Wiggins.
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As far as I am concerned, that is doping, because it is taking performance enhancing drugs when you do not need to.[/QUOTE]

So if they HAD to be made public, it may make the teams more reluctant to apply for TUE. It's worth pointing out that Wiggins' TUE was all above board and agreed by medical teams and the UCI, so who is at fault?
 
Philip. said:
I don't think Team Sky have done anything illegal, but I do think all TUE should be made public at the time of application. If teams want to be truly transparent then this has to happen. What has to stop is taking medication "just in case" which is what seems to have happened with Bradley Wiggins.
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I wonder if you'd think the same if it was a Spanish or French team.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I wonder if you'd think the same if it was a Spanish or French team.
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I must point out that I am not Team Skys biggest fan, mainly because it has Murdochs money behind it, infact I don't really support any team, I just have favourite riders. Having said that I do have a soft spot for Movistar. In answer to your question I would think the same about any team, regardless of their nationallity.
 
Philip. said:
I must point out that I am not Team Skys biggest fan, mainly because it has Murdochs money behind it, infact I don't really support any team, I just have favourite riders. Having said that I do have a soft spot for Movistar. In answer to your question I would think the same about any team, regardless of their nationallity.
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What do you think about the Russian track and field athletes being banned from the Olympics, and the entire Russian Paralympic team being banned, despite the fact that none of those athletes had ever tested positive for drugs?
Please bear in mind that doping tests are carried out by independent labs.
What has happened here, is that details have been released by hackers, clearly showing athletes who have received "medication", and then gone on to record World beating performances, the most notable athletes being the Williams sisters from the US, Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome.
Following that, we have had a former Sky rider come forward, stating that the powerful drug Tramadol was made freely available to Sky riders.
As for the UCI being cool about the TUE's, it was the UCI who swept Lance Armstrongs positive tests under the carpet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...ance-Armstrong-claims-independent-report.html
 
First off, if the Daily Mail told me today was Sunday I'd have a hard job believing them tbh, as for the Russians at the Olympics, that was a knee jerk reaction by the authorities that was, in my opinion, harsh, and the same applies for the Paralymics.

Doping is prevelant I would guess in most sports, always has been, always will be. There is too much money involved now and the pressure to win at all costs must be immense. The problem I have with Lance Armstrong is, everyone knew he was doping, most cyclists at the time were doping, but he lied and I have no respect for liars.
 
Philip. said:
First off, if the Daily Mail told me today was Sunday I'd have a hard job believing them tbh, as for the Russians at the Olympics, that was a knee jerk reaction by the authorities that was, in my opinion, harsh, and the same applies for the Paralymics.

Doping is prevelant I would guess in most sports, always has been, always will be. There is too much money involved now and the pressure to win at all costs must be immense. The problem I have with Lance Armstrong is, everyone knew he was doping, most cyclists at the time were doping, but he lied and I have no respect for liars.
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Actually it is Sunday today - easy to verify and calculate ;)

LASTOLITE said:
I trust NO sport these days for being totally clean when it comes to chemical enhancement. Its a sign of the times. I also don't rate a lot of sporting achievements, in fact I am totally disillusioned by all the revelations of drug use in competitive sports when Big money endorsements are the real goal in the end.

I am still a motorsport fan, WRC, F1, Fe and some others.
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This for me! It is all played by the rules when they stay 'honest', and not by the intention of those rules. You can guarantee that they'll be looking for performance enhancers constantly. It is big business, a shame.
 
Philip. said:
First off, if the Daily Mail told me today was Sunday I'd have a hard job believing them tbh, as for the Russians at the Olympics, that was a knee jerk reaction by the authorities that was, in my opinion, harsh, and the same applies for the Paralymics.

Doping is prevelant I would guess in most sports, always has been, always will be. There is too much money involved now and the pressure to win at all costs must be immense. The problem I have with Lance Armstrong is, everyone knew he was doping, most cyclists at the time were doping, but he lied and I have no respect for liars.
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Maybe the Guardian is a better choice?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/09/lance-armstrong-uci-colluded-circ-report-cycling
 
andy700 said:
Maybe the Guardian is a better choice?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/09/lance-armstrong-uci-colluded-circ-report-cycling
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It doesn't matter what paper it is in, it is old news. It was always alleged that Armstrong was doping and was being covered up by those at the top, what matters now is the lies have to stop. Unfortunately with sport being at the mercy of money, any hope of clean sport has gone.

Individuals and teams will always push the boundaries of what is legal at the time to the limit. They will always find ways to bend or interperate the rules. It is up to all governing bodies to publish clear and concise rules that can't be misinterperated in any way and ban for life anyone that transgresses.
 
Philip. said:
It doesn't matter what paper it is in, it is old news. It was always alleged that Armstrong was doping and was being covered up by those at the top, what matters now is the lies have to stop. Unfortunately with sport being at the mercy of money, any hope of clean sport has gone.

Individuals and teams will always push the boundaries of what is legal at the time to the limit. They will always find ways to bend or interperate the rules. It is up to all governing bodies to publish clear and concise rules that can't be misinterperated in any way and ban for life anyone that transgresses.
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The problem is that no matter how well the rules are written, you can guarantee that there will always be someone finding a legal way around them. This isn't about rules it is all about intent.
 
dejongj said:
The problem is that no matter how well the rules are written, you can guarantee that there will always be someone finding a legal way around them. This isn't about rules it is all about intent.
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I agree, so the answer to the original question is yes, British Cycling is clean, they have not, to my knowledge anyway, broken any rules, the same goes for Team Sky. Unless anyone can prove otherwise of course:popcorn:
 
Philip. said:
I agree, so the answer to the original question is yes, British Cycling is clean, they have not, to my knowledge anyway, broken any rules, the same goes for Team Sky. Unless anyone can prove otherwise of course:popcorn:
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LOL Broken rules no I don't think so, but clean no I don't think so either.
 
Philip. said:
I agree, so the answer to the original question is yes, British Cycling is clean, they have not, to my knowledge anyway, broken any rules, the same goes for Team Sky. Unless anyone can prove otherwise of course:popcorn:
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In my eyes, and the eyes of a good many cyclists and ex cyclists, they have cheated, and I think it is a great pity, because I really believed in their victories.
This is the first time I really believed that all was not well with Team Sky.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/sky-uci-scrutiny-chris-froomes-steroid-tue-127529

I don't think that they can be compared to Lance Armstrong and his level of cheating and intimidation, but I questioned at the time how a cyclist could be so ill that he needed a steroid injection, yet go on to beat the best cyclists in the World in a stage race.
 
Like I said earlier, Team Sky applied for and got TUE for Wiggins and others as preventitive measures. Now it seems this is not against the rules, therefore not cheating, but it does seem odd and why I think ALL TUE requests should be made public.
 
neil_g said:
well which is it? there's taking performance enhancing drugs aka doping (against the rules) and getting a TUE for medical conditions (within the rules).
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There are many medications that can be selected, some have useful side effects whilst not against the rules. As I said before the rules will always be pushed and broken regardless of how those rules are written you can't catch everything out.

Philip. said:
Like I said earlier, Team Sky applied for and got TUE for Wiggins and others as preventitive measures. Now it seems this is not against the rules, therefore not cheating, but it does seem odd and why I think ALL TUE requests should be made public.
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Indeed, but I think it should go further than just making it public, and in all sports. If the intent is there to enhance performance through medication then it should be enough to be classed as cheating. And not knowing isn't a good defense, lets turn the need to evidence upsidedown.
 
dejongj said:
There are many medications that can be selected, some have useful side effects whilst not against the rules. As I said before the rules will always be pushed and broken regardless of how those rules are written you can't catch everything out.



Indeed, but I think it should go further than just making it public, and in all sports. If the intent is there to enhance performance through medication then it should be enough to be classed as cheating. And not knowing isn't a good defense, lets turn the need to evidence upsidedown.
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Problem is proving intent to cheat, any TUE to prevent a condition occuring should be refused without hesitation.

The whole medication thing is a minefield, you may remember skier Alain Baxter loosing his Bronze medal after using an American version of a nasal spray which contained a banned substance as opposed to the UK one which didn't.

Isn't it amazing though how many elite riders in the Peleton seem to suffer from asthma? Maybe it's from years of riding on public roads breathing in vehicle fumes, who knows.
 
dejongj said:
There are many medications that can be selected, some have useful side effects whilst not against the rules. As I said before the rules will always be pushed and broken regardless of how those rules are written you can't catch everything out.



Indeed, but I think it should go further than just making it public, and in all sports. If the intent is there to enhance performance through medication then it should be enough to be classed as cheating. And not knowing isn't a good defense, lets turn the need to evidence upsidedown.
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Exactly this.
I should add, that EVERY elite athlete (and their coaches) is aware of what they can and cannot take, and none are expected to be so stupid as to blindly go into a chemists and simply ask for something without checking the list of proscribed substances first.
IF Team Sky was - as has been alleged - handing out Tramadol like smarties before races, then that IMHO is cheating, because Tramadol is an extremely powerful painkiller, and it would enable athletes to push themselves beyond what they are normally capable of.
Back in the mid nineties, I had to take a break from racing because my GP prescribed Salbutomol (inhaler) after I had complications following a severe case of Bronchitis. To be fair, remembering how I felt, the temperature I had and my heart rate up in the mid eighties (normally 45 BPM at rest) I couldn't have cycled 100 metres, let alone 100 miles.
As I have said before, Team Sky did NOT sign up to the MPCC, and that rang alarm bells, because if they really believed in a clean sport they would have done so. The MPCC believes that TUE's should be banned, and riders who have to take proscribed medication should take a break from cycling.
When you start applying for TUE's as a "preventative measure", before the rider falls "ill", just before a grand tour - TdF, Vuelta, Giro, and this is not disclosed to the general public, but comes out as part of hacked information - then that IMO is a clear form of cheating.
Unfortunately, this is not the first scandal to hit British cycling this year, as we had the Lizzie Armitstead missed tests fiasco, where she was IMO very fortunate not to get a ban.
 
andy700 said:
Exactly this.
I should add, that EVERY elite athlete (and their coaches) is aware of what they can and cannot take, and none are expected to be so stupid as to blindly go into a chemists and simply ask for something without checking the list of proscribed substances first.
IF Team Sky was - as has been alleged - handing out Tramadol like smarties before races, then that IMHO is cheating, because Tramadol is an extremely powerful painkiller, and it would enable athletes to push themselves beyond what they are normally capable of.
Back in the mid nineties, I had to take a break from racing because my GP prescribed Salbutomol (inhaler) after I had complications following a severe case of Bronchitis. To be fair, remembering how I felt, the temperature I had and my heart rate up in the mid eighties (normally 45 BPM at rest) I couldn't have cycled 100 metres, let alone 100 miles.
As I have said before, Team Sky did NOT sign up to the MPCC, and that rang alarm bells, because if they really believed in a clean sport they would have done so. The MPCC believes that TUE's should be banned, and riders who have to take proscribed medication should take a break from cycling.
When you start applying for TUE's as a "preventative measure", before the rider falls "ill", just before a grand tour - TdF, Vuelta, Giro, and this is not disclosed to the general public, but comes out as part of hacked information - then that IMO is a clear form of cheating.
Unfortunately, this is not the first scandal to hit British cycling this year, as we had the Lizzie Armitstead missed tests fiasco, where she was IMO very fortunate not to get a ban.
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Wiggins' TUE were approved by British authorities, and the UCI, so who is at fault, Team Sky or the UCI? You can't accuse someone of cheating if they haven't broken the rules. It maybe against the spirit of the sport and possibly immoral but not illegal.
You are correct though TUE should be banned in all sports, if the athelete is fit and well he shouldn't need any preventitive medication.
 
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That's the problem, they might be!
 
Surely after all SKY's protestations that they are racing clean they have a duty to stay clearly within the rules ? in my opinion this use of strategically timed TUE's is not coincidence and is an example of the 'marginal gains' strategy pushing against the bounds of acceptability.

In my eyes this is no different to Google, Starbucks, Amazon et al who were not breaking HMRC tax rules but their stance on tax avoidance was deemed repugnant by the media and I guess the majority of the UK public on PAYE.

SKY (via Dave Brailsford) have long adopted the 'high ground' on team doping and the leaking of these clandestine TUE's make a mockery of their stance.

Sadly we live in a time when it is not what you do that gets the headlines it is what you say.

Thank goodness I ride clean ! however I do admit to a caffeine fix regularly taken in coffee form.;)
 
badlywornroy said:
SKY (via Dave Brailsford) have long adopted the 'high ground' on team doping and the leaking of these clandestine TUE's make a mockery of their stance.
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I'm not going to argue with you, because I agree that this whole affair has a nasty smell to it. I agree that the TUE system needs to be improved, and I agree that Sky's actions, whilst technically legal, aren't entirely consistent with their "whiter than white" public stance.

That word 'clandestine' is a bit loaded though. It implies that Team Sky were secretive about TUEs and that such secrecy is unusual and wrong, and I think that's a bit harsh. As far as I understand, they obtained all the proper authorisations for their TUEs, and there is no requirement for TUEs to be publicised, and other teams wouldn't/don't publicise details of TUEs. Describing a polar bear as 'white' doesn't add anything, since all polar bears are white; and describing a TUE as 'clandestine' doesn't add anything, because all TUEs are clandestine.
 
Stewart, you present an interesting and intelligent argument against my use of "clandestine"

Let me try and convince you the term may indeed be appropriate ?

Be mindful of SKY's stance as the 'flag bearers' of clean cycling including the expulsion of former members who historically had committed violations.

Now consider the previous documented use of corticosteroid triamcinolone (which Wiggins received injections of) in doping.
Wiggins is on record as saying he had not received injections and SKY is on record as saying they would send a rider home sooner than give them TUE's when ill.

I find it hard if not impossible that they did not understand the implications of these particular TUE's being in the public domain. I guess they never considered it would/could be public knowledge.

If Wiggins had a genuine medical need of this particular performance enhancing drug why didn't SKY make it public ? It was public knowledge that Wiggins had previously received TUE's of corticosteroid prednisolone prior to the Tour de France of 2011 & 2012.

I believe SKY made a decision to keep these particular TUE's quiet knowing the implications hence my use of "clandestine"

I love cycling and am so proud of what UK cycling has achieved over recent years but this sorry episode has besmirched the reputation of UK cycling, unfortunately the doubters were already 'out there' now they have further ammunition.
 
badlywornroy said:
Now consider the previous documented use of corticosteroid triamcinolone (which Wiggins received injections of) in doping.
Wiggins is on record as saying he had not received injections and SKY is on record as saying they would send a rider home sooner than give them TUE's when ill.
...
It was public knowledge that Wiggins had previously received TUE's of corticosteroid prednisolone prior to the Tour de France of 2011 & 2012.
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I've got to admit I'm confused, though that's probably because I don't know as many of the details as you.

If it was public knowledge that Wiggins had had TUEs for prednisolone, what happened when Sky said they wouldn't grant TUEs? Didn't anyone call them out on it? Similarly, what happened when Wiggins said he had not received injections? How could he do that if his TUEs were public knowledge?
 
StewartR said:
I've got to admit I'm confused, though that's probably because I don't know as many of the details as you.

If it was public knowledge that Wiggins had had TUEs for prednisolone, what happened when Sky said they wouldn't grant TUEs? Didn't anyone call them out on it? Similarly, what happened when Wiggins said he had not received injections? How could he do that if his TUEs were public knowledge?
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I do not know if the prednisolone would be administered by injection ? Prednisolone is a commonly used steriod, we had a dog with a dust mite allergy and he was on prednisolone in tablet form.

When Wiggins was interviewed recently and questioned about his 'no injections' claim he has said that the question was in the context of doping and he meant ' no doping injections '

It is obvious that all his TUE's were not public knowledge but his asthma treatment apparently was ?

Whatever the truth SKY and Dave Brailsford have truly f***ed this up.

I sincerely hope for Wiggins, UK cycling and cycling in general that this can be cleared up and we can start to believe in all concerned again.
 
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