Bronica vs Mamiya 645

MindofMel

MindofMel

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Oi oi all,

Looking to get into Medium format for my birthday :) Both systems ETRS and 645 seem to be similar-ish prices on that auction site and was just wondering about peoples personal opinions of the two systems. Any recommendations on accessories and lenses. I'm also lsightly confused at how the lens focal lengths convert on MF. i.e whats a 75mm on MF vs a 75mm on Full-frame if that makes sense.

As a note: I'm looking at this camera for on location portraiture (not keen on being tied to a tripod either).. option of shooting landscape and portrait a plus. Have £300-£575. As much of that as I can keep - the better.
 
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The focal length is the same, only the angle of view changes.
A 75/80 is a standard lens (neither WA nor tele) on MF, the same field of view on a 35mm camera is a 50mm lens.

I've owned a Mamiya 645 super and its a fine camera, I own Bronica gear and rate it very highly, all I can say....without beating about the bush, being perfectly honest, without malicious intention I can safely announce.........645 is for Girls..

:D
 
erm difficult question as there can't be many members that have owned both systems to compare...Anyway I haven't any complaints about the ETRs in that it does the job and the lenses are sharp enough for me, but then I haven't used any other 645 cameras.
 
Years ago I went with the Mamiya 645,I think at the time everything Mamiya was coming in a bit cheaper,we're talking about when they were still for sale new.

I also Perfer the AE prism,on the Mamiya to the one on the Bronica.

:)
 
How about an SQ with a 645 back?

Not really any bigger and would give you the option of 6x6, though you'd need to mask the finder for 645.

Switching portrait/ landscape isn't ideal on these smaller bodies so you'll be needing prism finders.
 
:LOL: @ John

645 is seen by many as not a true Medium Format camera for the reason that the 645 format is not significantly bigger than 35mm, I think it is only larger by a factor of 1.5 (not 100% on that).

6x6 is seen as the the first medium format camera systems that anyone should even consider :)

However 645 can have some benefits:

Slightly smaller and lighter than the 6x6cameras (talking SLR systems here not folders or TLR's)

Most have some sort of metering prisms with them.

You can get 15 shots on a roll of film (12 for 6x6, 10 for 6x7, 8 for 6x9)

They can be less expensive than their 6x6 counterparts.

Bronica ETR and Mamiya 645 were both aimed at the same market place.

The Mamiya was a creation on its own as their big seller was the RB/RZ67s (they only ventured in to 6x6 via their excellent rangefinder camera which they changed to 6x7 later)

Bronica ETRS, SQ and GS systems are basically the same body design but made larger for the different formats.

Both systems are really good but I think if I was looking for one then I would look at the Mamiya 645 Pro or the Bronica ETRSi cameras.

75mm normally their standard lens, as John points out' is equivalent to 50mm in 35mm terms.

Wide angle lens generally are 65 or 50 mm
Portrait lens roughly 150mm

Oh, one last thing, I have used a 645 system in the past and while using them in landscape format is great, turning them in their side to be used in portrait I found odd because they are not scaled up 35mm cameras and handle differently.

Just to throw a spanner in the works if your looking at cheapish MF cameras then the TLR's like the Rolleicords or the Yashica 124 but you are then only using one lens and the square format. Check the "Lets talk about MF" thread started by Naboo32 which looked at these :)

Have fun :D
 
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Thanks for the reply Knikki, loads of great info!

I appreciate your point about the relatively small increase in size vs 35mm of 645 - looking on flickr the images still have that MF 'look and pop' (technical terms there) though so I wasn't too worried.

Another main reason for considering a MF system is that the portraits need negs that could potentially need to be blown up comfortably to A2-A0 size.

Maybe I should give more thought to a 6x7 system. I'm really anti TLR - not too sure why - just not a massive fan of them.
 
A2-A0 enlargement? Wow that is a big size.

If your now looking at 6x7 then yes it will certainly give you the enlargement quality you want but I think you may need to look at the whole deving process eg even though I use 6x7 I do not think I would go that big if developing 400 film in Rodinal :)

Then you looking at Mamiya RB/RZ 67 or the Pentax 67.

Both have pro's and con's and there is fair bit about them on the web.
 
Have used both at college/uni and have owned a Mamiya 645j.

Not much between the sytems quality/usability wise I'd say but I know a lot of people seem to get caught out by the Bronica's trick of defaulting to a set shutter speed (1/500th?) - and giving no warning of doing this - if the battery runs out.
 
Knikki said:
A2-A0 enlargement? Wow that is a big size.

If your now looking at 6x7 then yes it will certainly give you the enlargement quality you want but I think you may need to look at the whole deving process eg even though I use 6x7 I do not think I would go that big if developing 400 film in Rodinal :)

Then you looking at Mamiya RB/RZ 67 or the Pentax 67.

Both have pro's and con's and there is fair bit about them on the web.
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Slight exaggeration on my part that I'll ever need prints larger than A2. When justifying buying any kit its because I convince myself a new award winning picture is going to come out of it :LOL:

400 BW - stand dev in rodinal is exactly the type of thing I plan to be doing.

brianwar said:
Have used both at college/uni and have owned a Mamiya 645j.

Not much between the sytems quality/usability wise I'd say but I know a lot of people seem to get caught out by the Bronica's trick of defaulting to a set shutter speed (1/500th?) - and giving no warning of doing this - if the battery runs out.
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Yea, I just read about that over on APUG - just got to keep an eye on it
 
joxby said:
I've owned a Mamiya 645 super and its a fine camera, I own Bronica gear and rate it very highly, all I can say....without beating about the bush, being perfectly honest, without malicious intention I can safely announce.........645 is for Girls..:D
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Hmmmm, do I detect a bit of willy waving here?:LOL:


Knikki said:
:LOL: @ John

645 is seen by many as not a true Medium Format camera for the reason that the 645 format is not significantly bigger than 35mm, I think it is only larger by a factor of 1.5 (not 100% on that).
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Actually I think you will find that 645 is 2.7x larger than 35mm.

Knikki said:
6x6 is seen as the the first medium format camera systems that anyone should even consider :)
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645 along with 6x7 are considered to be "ideal format"

The "Ideal Format"
The "Ideal Format" allows the printing of an original negative or chrome to an 8" x 10" piece of paper with a minimum of cropping. 8" x 10" is the standard, or generally accepted printing dimension for photographic prints as well as for magazines. Mamiya 645 and 6x7 formats are "Ideal Formats" as they require a minimum of cropping to produce an 8" x 10" print. 35mm on the other hand wastes 20% of the image area in the cropping process.


Knikki said:
However 645 can have some benefits:

Slightly smaller and lighter than the 6x6cameras (talking SLR systems here not folders or TLR's)

Most have some sort of metering prisms with them.

You can get 15 shots on a roll of film (12 for 6x6, 10 for 6x7, 8 for 6x9)

They can be less expensive than their 6x6 counterparts.

Bronica ETR and Mamiya 645 were both aimed at the same market place.

The Mamiya was a creation on its own as their big seller was the RB/RZ67s (they only ventured in to 6x6 via their excellent rangefinder camera which they changed to 6x7 later)

Bronica ETRS, SQ and GS systems are basically the same body design but made larger for the different formats.

Both systems are really good but I think if I was looking for one then I would look at the Mamiya 645 Pro or the Bronica ETRSi cameras.

75mm normally their standard lens, as John points out' is equivalent to 50mm in 35mm terms.
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Can only see the advantage of lighter weight 645 that is more likely to get taken out and used compared to the heavier 6x7.

.........plus the 645 doesn't seem to suffer the same unreliability as the Bronicas....

Just my girlie opinion.......;)

Heather
 
MindofMel said:
Lol cheers John,

What are the differences that lead you to say that?
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I dunno, the Super was all bells and whistles, metered prism and motor winder, compact & easy to handle, the negs we're just big 35mm, there didn't seem to be much difference between it and 35mm gear.
I suppose I was looking for something a bit more challenging, something bigger all round, with a bit less automation.
So although I say I've owned both, my Bronica gear was never ETRs.
Now I'm not going to get in to 5x4 because that is LF.
I like square, 645 feels to me to be a waste, you compromise on everything (compared to 35mm gear) like size, weight, cost, availability, AF, etc.....to shoot big, and end up with a cropped 6x6 :shrug:.
You could of course say the same about 6x6 preferring to shoot 6x9, but gear choices become more limited for 6x9.
But if you are determined to go large, then 6x7 & 6x8 seem daft when you can do 6x9...:)
I'm not ennertaining 6x12 or 617 pano jobbies either, they are pretty niche and damn expensive..lol
 
I've not used the Bronica but have the Mamiya 645 Super coupled with an 80mm 2.8 lens and its been superb so far. Remember that with film its not so much about the body as the lens and film are what produce results. The only variable the body controls is the shutter speed and every single MF make/body will allow you to set the shutter speed manually. I liked the Mamiya 645 Super because parts and lens are relatively inexpensive, very accessible.
 
If this is inappropriate mods, feel free to delete

I *may* have a Bronica ETRS with 75mm WLF and AE-2 prism up for sale on the classifieds by the end of the month, subject to it getting repaired/CLA'd

Just a heads up, will delete if inappropriate
 
robhooley167 said:
If this is inappropriate mods, feel free to delete

I *may* have a Bronica ETRS with 75mm WLF and AE-2 prism up for sale on the classifieds by the end of the month, subject to it getting repaired/CLA'd

Just a heads up, will delete if inappropriate
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Would be all over that, price permitting (y)

Also, what are the wide angle options for the two systems - need a good portrait lens and a good wide angle.
 
MindofMel said:
Would be all over that, price permitting (y)

Also, what are the wide angle options for the two systems - need a good portrait lens and a good wide angle.
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I believe there is a 40 or 50mm for the ETRS, TheBigYin has one IIRC
 
I dont know anything about the Bronica but I have got the mamiya 645 pro along with the mamiya c330 f , both of which I am pleased with..

The bit that I like about the 645 is not to heavy and it's easy to use, and I am quite happy using it with the waist level finder using the sunny sixteen rule or a seperate meter..or it can be just as easily used like a SLR with the AE metered prism which has a dial built in for exposure compensation...either way it gives good results for me..
 
I've got a 50mm f2.8 and a 150mm f3.5 remnants from my kit I swapped. I must update the thread or stick them on the dreaded bay.
 
Pretty sure there is a 35/40 for the ETRS as well, but its go's for a fair amount :( Which is a shame, because i'd probably keep my kit if i could get one at the right price :/
 
SimonUK said:
Pretty sure there is a 35/40 for the ETRS as well, but its go's for a fair amount :( Which is a shame, because i'd probably keep my kit if i could get one at the right price :/
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Yeaaa 40's seem to go for £175 on a good day.. A lot more on a normal day on that auction site
 
I would try and convince you that 6x6 is the way to go as the best overall compromise. Square is, and always will be, the perfect format for portraits. No need for prism finders. If you want to, you CAN use a 645 back and prism finder. "Ideal format", always seemed a marketing thing and will probably work against you now a days with the lack of processing houses any way.

Back in the day when I was trying to earn a living photographing weddings and anything else, the M645 was the Amateur intro to MF. Tried one for a while. Nice lenses, but with the fixed back and only a single leaf shutter lens for fill flash, lacking in flexibility. The latter stuff just seemed, plasticky and gimmicky.

A colleague went ETR which answered these lackings, but we all felt the lens quality wasn't quite there. He then went RB67 and managed for years with a single lens (And an occasional borrowed one)! Great quality, built like a tank but HEAVY and BIG. You don't carry around a body and three lenses, couple or three backs, flash, filters bits and bobs. Oh no! (Least ways not without an assistant or two)!

I went SQAi. (Couldn't afford 'Blad)! Better lenses and build quality than ETR/Si. Lighter than, but arguably as good as RB/RZ. System gave me everything I NEEDED. (And I could carry two lenses and backs plus flash). Today I'd recommend a CM500/503 system for the breadth of flexibility, (If you can find and afford a good one not worn out).

Mind you, I haven't used mine for a few years. If I'm doing MF I tend to grab a Rollei or other TLR. Now theres nice! (y)
 
Stumpy said:
I would try and convince you that 6x6 is the way to go as the best overall compromise. Square is, and always will be, the perfect format for portraits. No need for prism finders. If you want to, you CAN use a 645 back and prism finder. "Ideal format", always seemed a marketing thing and will probably work against you now a days with the lack of processing houses any way.

Back in the day when I was trying to earn a living photographing weddings and anything else, the M645 was the Amateur intro to MF. Tried one for a while. Nice lenses, but with the fixed back and only a single leaf shutter lens for fill flash, lacking in flexibility. The latter stuff just seemed, plasticky and gimmicky.

A colleague went ETR which answered these lackings, but we all felt the lens quality wasn't quite there. He then went RB67 and managed for years with a single lens (And an occasional borrowed one)! Great quality, built like a tank but HEAVY and BIG. You don't carry around a body and three lenses, couple or three backs, flash, filters bits and bobs. Oh no! (Least ways not without an assistant or two)!

I went SQAi. (Couldn't afford 'Blad)! Better lenses and build quality than ETR/Si. Lighter than, but arguably as good as RB/RZ. System gave me everything I NEEDED. (And I could carry two lenses and backs plus flash). Today I'd recommend a CM500/503 system for the breadth of flexibility, (If you can find and afford a good one not worn out).

Mind you, I haven't used mine for a few years. If I'm doing MF I tend to grab a Rollei or other TLR. Now theres nice! (y)
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Price is probably my limiting factor here - defo in regards to the 'blad options! The Sq-AI and RB systems are something I've considered but their size(weight) and inc expense over the ETRS are what stop me jumping up to those!
 
Always preferred the build quality of the newer Mamiya but the Bronica seemd to have an edge to get hold of other lenses & accessories
 
Oh dear.. 2 hours on flickr of research and I made the mistake of looking at pictures produced by the Bronica SQ-A --- shouldn't have - they are exactly the type of subjects etc I am looking at doing and the pictures just seem to be sharper with more of a MF pop than the ETRS...

With the ETRS - all people seem to photograph is farm fields and landscapes! Struggle to find a decent portrait or fashion shoot with an ETRS but the SQ-A has loads -- loads that look like they were produced on a 'blad as well.

What i really need is a side by side picture for size comparison of a bronica ETRS, Sq-A and Mamiya 645 - but appears not one person in the world has ever taken this photo or put it on flickr damnit!
 
:LOL: difficult sometimes.

Yeah I went look through my favorite online stores and found a used Contax 645, did lots of looking on Flickr as well, but in the end I descided I like 6x6 to much so will stay with the Bronica SQ-Ai for a while.
 
In terms of focal length combinations, I use the Pentax 645 system and find that the 45mm, 75mm and 150mm are a nice set of lenses that correspond to wide, normal and short tele (or 28mm, 50mm and 100mm in 35mm format).
 
Knikki said:
:LOL: difficult sometimes.

Yeah I went look through my favorite online stores and found a used Contax 645, did lots of looking on Flickr as well, but in the end I descided I like 6x6 to much so will stay with the Bronica SQ-Ai for a while.
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Do you have the speed grip knikki? if so, how do you find it? I have a friend who said - it doesnt actually make you work faster than the normal hand crack and mentioned something about it not having "instant return" on the mirror?:thinking:
 
MindofMel said:
Do you have the speed grip knikki? if so, how do you find it? I have a friend who said - it doesnt actually make you work faster than the normal hand crack and mentioned something about it not having "instant return" on the mirror?:thinking:
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Yes I do have a 'speed grip'

I find that when using the speed grip on say a tripod or with the waist level finder, then it is not so quick, I personally find it a little awkward and slower to use BUT not unusable. With the above combo I find that the normal winding handle much better to use.

However with a prism on the camera, then the grip is great and I find it really easy and quick to use.

The Bronica, Hasselblads don't have "instant return mirrors" which simple means that you have to wind the camera on and cock the shutter mechanism before you can see anything through the lens.

Unlike the 35mm camera you have which always returns the mirror to its starting position so you can see through the lens. :)

Out of interest if you do the Google and look for 'Flickr Hive Mind' and in the small search window type in Bronica ETRS or Mamiya 645 then you should get back loads of images a real mix of everything including portraits and some what look like fashion pics to me. :)
 
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I'm quite tempted by the SQ-A as well for some bizarre reason! Seems to offer the perfect combination between value and 'blad-like camera.
 
freecom2 said:
I'm quite tempted by the SQ-A as well for some bizarre reason! Seems to offer the perfect combination between value and 'blad-like camera.
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Exactly J.

Size of the ETRS doesnt seem much different to the Sq-A aswell. Although the angle could be deceiving

5509975391_b715a8d3ec_z.jpg
 
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