Buying from DigitalRev

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Hi,

Your opinion on why I register is as valid as any of your opinions on tax avoidance vs tax evasion. You, without undue respect, are clueless.
You are so clueless that if you went out with clueless, she would be wearing 'I'm with clueless' t-shirt.

Your moral crusade against anything that you perceive as pink-verging-on-yellow imports was entertaining, as much as the post of the other person who suggested that customs are checking serial numbers of lenses to establish if tax was paid on them.

While you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, my opinion is that you should clearly mark them as that, opinions, not facts. If I came and started rambling along the lines, 'omg ONE poster had problem with a brown-with-pink-dots importing company, AVOID AVOID AVOID', I doubt that my post count would be a problem.

:)

P.S. Off now to scratch serial number of my pocket canon, as for the love of God, I can't remember where I bought it. Just in case, you never know. After that, I'm going to get meself telephone of the Inland Revenue to report local corner shop owner as he clearly sells 'Coke Light' and by doing that clearly depraving local school/police station/hospital of much needed funds.

P.P.S. If you really want to educate yourself on matters of Law, may I suggest visiting http://www.bailii.org/ rather than DailyMail?



Dave1 said:
Stuart, it's probably a waste of time trying to reason with someone who registers merely to defend a grey retailer, no matter how good your argument or how ridiculous their viewpoint is, you'll never change what they say.
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DemiLion said:
You seem to misunderstand the difference between evasion and avoidance.

It would not be possible to prosecute for tax avoidance because, by its very nature, it is not illegal. If individuals or companies are prosecuted, then the scheme itself must be breaking UK tax law and therefore would be (legally) classed as evasion.
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I can assure you that I do not. Some tax avoidance practices are being advertised (and used) as perfectly legal. Why they do adhere to the letter of law (and as such can't be classified as evasion), HMRC are increasingly taking the position that, while adhering to the letter of Law, they are not adhering the spirit of Law. They (HMRC) have been surprising successful in pursuing those.
 
popeye88 said:
I can assure you that I do not. Some tax avoidance practices are being advertised (and used) as perfectly legal. Why they do adhere to the letter of law (and as such can't be classified as evasion), HMRC are increasingly taking the position that, while adhering to the letter of Law, they are not adhering the spirit of Law. They (HMRC) have been surprising successful in pursuing those.
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....which would be then classed as evasion.
 
popeye88 said:
who suggested that customs are checking serial numbers of lenses to establish if tax was paid on them.
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You do seem to be a master at misrepresenting what people have actually said

in that particular case I was reffering to what would happen if a business has its tax affairs audited by revenue and customs as a result of having been caught conspiring to evade VAT on an import (for example by having the sender misdescribe the value and then failing to report the real one)

In that case they would be required to produce the paperwork for every item of equipment owned by the business , to demonstrate that they had paid appropriate tax on the purchase

there would also be a line by line reading of their accounts for any misdiscrepancy. HMRC have wide ranging powers to audit accounts etc and its generally a massive ball ache for alll concerned - especially if your record keeping isnt perfect

(this isnt to say they will check serial numbers as you pass through customs normally - as that would just be silly, and no one is suggesting that this is done )
 
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kev2010 said:
I once read a story about a guy with a fancy grey market camera. He went on holiday. When returning from abroad he was given a bit of a search by customs. The story goes that they checked the serial number of the camera and ascertained it was grey with no duty / tax having been paid. The story goes that the camera was confiscated by customs. Now I don't know if there is truth in this, but it's certainly food for thought.
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He was clearly referring to this post Mr Moose
 
Ah, as one would quite reasonably expect.

Alas, that is not the case, those schemes are still available and still sold on a premise that they constitute 'aggressive tax avoidance. but not tax evasion proposals'.

My point is, the line between tax avoidance and tax evasion is not clear as some posters would like it to be.

While tax evasion is always illegal, tax avoidance, according to HMRC is not always legal.

One of these days I'll have to learn to put my points across more eloquently.

:)

If you are interested to find out more, do go to bailii and search for IoM, avoidance and trust. Sobering reading.

DemiLion said:
....which would be then classed as evasion.
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Rebel t3i said:
He was clearly referring to this post Mr Moose
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Fairy muff - I missed that , and it does seem a tad unlikely (unless it was a case of it having been bought new while on holiday and customs stopping the buyer from bringing it in without paying)

it doesnt seem plausible that HMRC would have records searchible by serial , or at least not quickly enough for an on the spot check
 
Popeye88, what country are you actually in? Perhaps that has given you a different idea on tax matters?
 
popeye88 said:
Ah, as one would quite reasonably expect.

Alas, that is not the case, those schemes are still available and still sold on a premise that they constitute 'aggressive tax avoidance. but not tax evasion proposals'.

My point is, the line between tax avoidance and tax evasion is not clear as some posters would like it to be.

While tax evasion is always illegal, tax avoidance, according to HMRC is not always legal.

One of these days I'll have to learn to put my points across more eloquently.

:)

If you are interested to find out more, do go to bailii and search for IoM, avoidance and trust. Sobering reading.
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You really do seem to be missing the point. It's not a question of legalese, it is purely linguistic.

Neither tax avoidance nor evasion are defined by the law, they are defined by the meaning to the words.

If someone can be prosecuted for tax avoidance, then that practice is no longer avoidance but evasion.

It really is very clear cut - if it breaks the law (either letter or spirit), then it's evasion.
 
Guys, please stop the point scoring, petty insults and snide comments.

No point trying to reason with me, I'm too stupid for that, I'll just end up banning someone :)
 
I am going to draw up a sticky to point folk in the direction of what is required when importing goods from outside the EU. Any further discussion on this subject should be confined to the relevant thread, rather than the continuous thread spoiling that occurs in these import threads.

I get the fact that some folk have a genuine concern, but does it have to be on EVERY thread, several times over?
 
Rebel t3i said:
He was clearly referring to this post Mr Moose
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At the end of the day it was something I read. I don't mean to infer that this is correct. I was simply saying this is something I had read somewhere. Any truth to it? Not too bothered to be honest. I am certainly not making a statement to take one side or the other in this argument. :):):)
 
matty said:
I am going to draw up a sticky to point folk in the direction of what is required when importing goods from outside the EU. Any further discussion on this subject should be confined to the relevant thread, rather than the continuous thread spoiling that occurs in these import threads.

I get the fact that some folk have a genuine concern, but does it have to be on EVERY thread, several times over?
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If you'd like a sticky on "the pros and cons of going grey", Matty, I'd be happy to draft one for you. Just say the word.

Personally I think things would run more smoothly for you, and you wouldn't get all these unwanted comments, if the owners of Talk Photography took - and were seen to take - as strong a stance against tax evasion as you quite rightly do against other types of illegal activities. The forum rules say that all "discussion of, encouraging of, or admitting to illegal activities" is prohibited, but we all know that one particular illegal activity is slightly less prohibited than all the others.

I commend to you the stance adopted by the mods on the AP forums (here):
I think those complicit in non-payment of VAT are morally bankrupt - and doubtless they're the same people who endlessly moan about giant corporations, bankers, politicians, social-security claiming immigrants or whoever, but see nothing wrong in ripping the country off for themselves. Utter shame on you. UK retailers work on wafer-thin margins because they're part of the system that pays the taxes that support our society. If you can afford an expensive camera, you can afford to pay your bit towards the NHS, armed forces, education - everything that makes this country worth living in - and help keep our retailers going and stop ripping the rest of us off - because it's the decent ones of us that pay for the tax-evading scumbags.
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matty said:
I am going to draw up a sticky to point folk in the direction of what is required when importing goods from outside the EU. Any further discussion on this subject should be confined to the relevant thread, rather than the continuous thread spoiling that occurs in these import threads.

I get the fact that some folk have a genuine concern, but does it have to be on EVERY thread, several times over?
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I say all this with respect as I appreciate it must be difficult to run a site like this, but those of us who 'have genuine concern' are trying to be genuinely helpful, but taking an incredible amount of abuse for it.

The very fact that you consider it 'spoiling' is somewhat concerning, plenty of people are arriving here wondering about these 'to good to be true' prices on certain sites. I can't see how it can be anything but a good thing that a small number of members are happy to take the time to explain the basic legal situation, the pitfalls of buying grey, using BT etc.

Whilst it's apparently a 'grey' area (although there has been plenty of evidence posted to suggest the mis-labelling of good frequently happen, even from one of the advertisers here), at the end of the day it basically comes down to the discussion of illegal activities, which we all agree to avoid when we sign up.

Personally I feel the same as Stewart, as a UK site it would be nice to throw a bit of weight behind UK independent camera stores etc, who are undoubtedly affected by the sheer volume of grey importing going on, rather than make those who are doing their bit to explain the situation feel like outsiders.
 
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Stewart

No thanks, I have one from 5 years ago that I wrote, I'll dig it out and update it.

I think things would run more smoothly if some people stopped being moral guardians and let people make up their own minds about what they spend their money on. How they calibrate their moral compass is down to those spending the money and those people alone. We're all adults, we need to be allowed to make decisions like adults.

Good luck to the nice folk at AP Forums, we heartily encourage people to Buy British, but if you dont Buy British, make sure you pay your import tax (y)
 
ukaskew said:
I say all this with respect as I appreciate it must be difficult to run a site like this, but those of us who 'have genuine concern' are trying to be genuinely helpful, but taking an incredible amount of abuse for it.

The very fact that you consider it 'spoiling' is somewhat concerning, plenty of people are arriving here wondering about these 'to good to be true' prices on certain sites. I can't see how it can be anything but a good thing that a small number of members are happy to take the time to explain the basic legal situation, the pitfalls of buying grey, using BT etc.

Whilst it's apparently a 'grey' area (although there has been plenty of evidence posted to suggest the mis-labelling of good frequently happen, even from one of the advertisers here), at the end of the day it basically comes down to the discussion of illegal activities, which we all agree to avoid when we sign up.

Personally I feel the same as Stewart, as a UK site it would be nice to throw a bit of weight behind UK independent camera stores etc, who are undoubtedly affected by the sheer volume of grey importing going on, rather than make those who are doing their bit to explain the situation feel like outsiders.
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there will be an in-depth sticky that explains grey imports, as well as what 'MoU' is, what it means to buying products from Hong Kong, and which companies fall under that agreement. :)

I have NO problem with people discussing the merits of buying locally, and I would happily support local UK business selling products if they approach us to advertise, apparently there are loads of them queuing up to advertise on forums like ours...perhaps they got lost on the way though :shrug:
 
As I don't wish to incur wrath of banhammer sporting, kilt wearing, Dickensian friend, I'll make this my last post on this thread.

DemiLion;
You are wrong. Some tax avoidance schemes are illegal, some are not. To find out which is which I'll point you to the ;
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/avoidance/spotlights.htm
Note the language. Once again, evasion is always illegal, avoidance sometimes is sometimes is not.
You can accept what they have to say on the subject, or you can try to reinvent the definitions. Your call.

BigSoftMoose;
You are right, people have warranty/delivery issues only with less than light green importers.
As far as getting redress through legal channels, including SCC, the only thing that I can say is, good luck.

Dave1;
I'm currently resident of Londonistan. To point out instances of where you were/are wrong on subjects to do with grey imports would take considerably more time than I'm prepared to invest. Start from assumption that whatever you think about this subject, is wrong and then go from there.

To others;
Apologies. My intention was to challenge mis/preconceptions. For what is worth, I think that idea of creating the sticky with opinions, even 'facts', on buying imported goods, is a very good one. It should help to keep threads like this one on track.

:)
 
popeye88 said:
Dave1;
I'm currently resident of Londonistan. To point out instances of where you were/are wrong on subjects to do with grey imports would take considerably more time than I'm prepared to invest. Start from assumption that whatever you think about this subject, is wrong and then go from there.
:)
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Don't try and be clever, you are here as a shill and I can guarantee you that I have more knowledge of criminal law than you can hope to.

You are not English, and probably not even in the UK, you've admitted as much in other posts, like English is your 4th language, the time of many of your posts and "Coke Light" doesn't exist in the UK. Try "Diet Coke" next time.

You want to hang around and promote tax evasion, fine, it seems the forum owners are happy for that to happen, but your insulting attitude can go where the sun don't shine.....
 
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Dave1 said:
Don't try and be clever, you are here as a shill and I can guarantee you that I have more knowledge of criminal law than you can hope to.

You are not English, and probably not even in the UK, you've admitted as much in other posts, like English is your 4th language, the time of many of your posts and "Coke Light" doesn't exist in the UK. Try "Diet Coke" next time.

You want to hang around and promote tax evasion, fine, it seems the forum owners are happy for that to happen, but your insulting attitude can go where the sun don't shine.....
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Sorry Dave but I can see things you cant, and UK IP address is one of them...
and we DONT condone tax evasion - i'll not put up with slurs like that. Get your facts right.
 
in fact, this thread has run its course.

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE DICTATING TO ADULTS WHAT ADULTS CAN DO WITH THEIR MONEY

IF YOU ARE IMPORTING, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO

IF YOU ARE EXPORTING, LABEL THE PARCELS CORRECTLY AND USE THE MOU CODE GIVEN ON THE PACKAGES.

thats everyone told.
 
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