Buying from Panamoz, what are the risks?

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fulwood

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I'm getting fed up of buying in rip-off Britain and am surprised at the price differences between buying goods in the UK and USA, or even Europe for that matter. There doesn't seem any good reason for it.

Looks like we pay in £s what it costs in $s, when really it should only be 0.6 of the $ price!

Am very tempted to buy a grey import 5D Mk III from Panamoz, approx £1800 if I pay by bank transfer. £100s cheaper than a genuine GB product.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't?

Your comments/experiences appreciated.

Any other well-priced dealers to consider besides Panamoz?
 
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fulwood said:
I'm getting fed up of buying in rip-off Britain and am surprised at the price differences between buying goods in the UK and USA, or even Europe for that matter. There doesn't seem any good reason for it.
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It's something called Tax (VAT, import tax etc), that and our minimum wage is greater than that in the far East and a lot of Europe
 
fulwood said:
There doesn't seem any good reason for it.
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Fire service,ambulance service, police, min wage, benefits ( for those who do actually need help), NHS etc,etc.............nah, no real reasons at all.
 
Hi
In the Photo Shopping section have a look in,
"Shopping, Suppliers and Bargains" you will find a number of threads on Panamoz.

I have ordered a 70-300 zoom, a Nikon Teleconvertor and a Lumix TZ30 from them, no issues, no problems!
A very quick delivery on all items.
 
Potential of never seeing that money again, that's just for starters.
Landed with a duty/VAT bill
No warranty honoured for grey import bodies - lenses seem to have a worldwide warranty, iirc, for all brands.

Your currency conversion doesn't take into account our wonderful 20% luxury tax - out of State sales are tax free in most US States.
So drop the 20% off our prices before converting £s into $s.

If you want to save money on a 5D III, buy a pre-owned one or ex-demo/refurb from the bay of evil here or european flavours.
 
Hdew deliver from a uk address so no import duty problems, also believe you can get an invoice for vat purposes

Also warranty if needed is by authorised UK repair companies rather than having to send the goods abroad

Not sure I would want to pay by bank transfer, credit card does give you much more protection

Fire service,ambulance service, police, min wage, benefits ( for those who do actually need help), NHS etc,etc[/QUOTE
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Think some of the above are paid from my council tax and national insurance contributions, not forgetting good old paye too
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fracster said:
Fire service,ambulance service, police, min wage, benefits ( for those who do actually need help), NHS etc,etc.............nah, no real reasons at all.
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Plus we have to subsidise the losses made by poor impoverished Starbucks and friends.

I'm honestly surprised HMRC haven't taken action against Panamoz and their like. It's a relatively easy target that would increase UK revenue while protecting businesses. Only a legal expert could explain the difference between them and smugglers (I know...it's to do with to whom the goods belong when they cross borders - technically it's the purchasers that are smugglers.)
 
What it comes down to is, if you want to save your wallet a good few hundred pounds that would be better spent on your kids and your home then buy from Panamoz like I did.
If you feel the need to empty your wallet of extra hundreds of pounds to line the Uk tax hole then buy from a reputable dealer in the uk.

Its your choice and no one elses, there are loads of threads on here where people have bought from them, some even had a few problems that got sorted quicker than it would have had you taken it back to the shop you bought it from.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I'm honestly surprised HMRC haven't taken action against Panamoz and their like. It's a relatively easy target that would increase UK revenue while protecting businesses.
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I suspect it's not as easy as you think. The amount of parcels coming into the UK every day is a staggering number and HMRC are probably only able to check a very small percentage of them. I doubt the revenue they would make from Panamoz parcels alone wouldn't add up to much more than a tiny drop in a very large ocean. Surely their #1 priority is intercepting higher value targets, such as drugs smugglers and the like....as it should be.
 
domino1999 said:
I suspect it's not as easy as you think. The amount of parcels coming into the UK every day is a staggering number and HMRC are probably only able to check a very small percentage of them. I doubt the revenue they would make from Panamoz parcels alone wouldn't add up to much more than a tiny drop in a very large ocean. Surely their #1 priority is intercepting higher value targets, such as drugs smugglers and the like....as it should be.
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As it happens, I live reasonably close to Dover and know a couple of "revenue protection officers". They ain't even that worried about drugs. People are the big thing....

But it would be a very easy way to raise a _lot_ of money. Track the parcels (really, this is what they do for a living), impose correct level of duty and taxes plus let's say a £100 fine for duty evasion. Couple of blokes with access to DHL/UPS/RM computers (which they kind of have) could raise a lot of money very fast.....

Even without the computer access, a desktop Xray machine would tell them what's in the parcels. Especially given they all come from a small number of addresses.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Plus we have to subsidise the losses made by poor impoverished Starbucks and friends.

I'm honestly surprised HMRC haven't taken action against Panamoz and their like. It's a relatively easy target that would increase UK revenue while protecting businesses. Only a legal expert could explain the difference between them and smugglers (I know...it's to do with to whom the goods belong when they cross borders - technically it's the purchasers that are smugglers.)
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So what about all the bleeding foreing tourists, foreign students etc, etc who can shop absolutly duty free anywhere in this country for as long as theyre here
 
PJ S said:
Potential of never seeing that money again, that's just for starters.
Landed with a duty/VAT bill
No warranty honoured for grey import bodies - lenses seem to have a worldwide warranty, iirc, for all brands.
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I'd say that this sums up the risks pretty well. That and potentially having to send it back to Hong Kong for repair. I'm not sure what their non-replacement warranty policy is.
 
If you buy from hdew you will not have to send out of country for repair. I bought a 7d from them at it has been repaired first time under canon warranty and 2nd time under the extended warranty they offer.
 
graphilly said:
I'd say that this sums up the risks pretty well. That and potentially having to send it back to Hong Kong for repair. I'm not sure what their non-replacement warranty policy is.
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You don't send back to HK, there's a London address you return it to.

Quite frankly guys, there are plenty of threads about Panamoz in the Shopping section where these things have already been discussed. I don't understand why people are starting new threads time and again :thinking:
 
JonathanRyan said:
Track the parcels (really, this is what they do for a living), impose correct level of duty and taxes plus let's say a £100 fine for duty evasion. Couple of blokes with access to DHL/UPS/RM computers (which they kind of have) could raise a lot of money very fast.....
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Who pays the fine? If it's me as I ordered and the sender miss labels it I'd probably be more than a touch miffed with HRMC and the seller. Fine the seller, or even ban their imports if it gets that far, but fining the recipient for something they have no control of is unworkable.

However even with VAT and Duty paid (and a handling fee imposed by the carrier) it's often still cheaper to order a grey market item.
 
the one major drawback that i found after buying my 5D3 + 70-300 "L" from panamoz was the uncontrollable rage from other 5D3 users after telling them i saved in the region of £1100 by buying my (identical) kit from Hong Kong....

paid my money by bank transfer and got it to my door within about 2 days.
 
SpikeK6 said:
If they where that worried they would be doing that already would they not????
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There are loads of things that should be done but aren't in all aspects of tax and pretty much everything else.

Just because it seems obvious to us doesn't mean it will happen...
 
I can see why people buy from overseas but just imagine if every single product anyone living in the UK bought was purchased from outside of the country. And you thought the financial mess we are in now was bad...
 
maninsuitcase said:
Who pays the fine? If it's me as I ordered and the sender miss labels it I'd probably be more than a touch miffed with HRMC and the seller. Fine the seller, or even ban their imports if it gets that far, but fining the recipient for something they have no control of is unworkable.
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As far as I understand it, the reason that it's inaccurate to call Panamoz and their chums "smugglers" is that they sell the goods to you before they import them. Or technically before you import them. It may seem unfair but the owner is responsible for any taxes (and fines) that may be due. Your alternative would be to forfeit the goods (just like when the Royal Mail send you a bill for the tax and their "handling fee").

In fact, if you receive an item on which duty has not been correctly levied I believe you're supposed to declare it to the HMRC or you would be committing a further offence.

If you can prove it was a mistake by the sender (and not them acting on your instructions) I guess you'd have a civil case against them.

Since HMRC have been looking at the Jersey boys I suspect it won't be long before they start taking action.

In theory I guess another risk of ordering from Panamoz is the imposition of a Civil Customs Evasion Penalty of up 100% of tax and the destruction of the goods. Plus the tax, obvs. There's a helpful note here http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ides&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_MIG_009852 showing that they really can impose it on a private individual who is anything less than honest.
 
PJ S said:
Potential of never seeing that money again, that's just for starters. Never, personally, had a problem with Panamoz
Landed with a duty/VAT bill Never, personally, had a problem with Panamoz

No warranty honoured for grey import bodies - lenses seem to have a worldwide warranty, iirc, for all brands. Only bought lenses

Your currency conversion doesn't take into account our wonderful 20% luxury tax - out of State sales are tax free in most US States.
So drop the 20% off our prices before converting £s into $s.

If you want to save money on a 5D III, buy a pre-owned one or ex-demo/refurb from the bay of evil here or european flavours.
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JonathanRyan said:
As far as I understand it, the reason that it's inaccurate to call Panamoz and their chums "smugglers" is that they sell the goods to you before they import them. Or technically before you import them. It may seem unfair but the owner is responsible for any taxes (and fines) that may be due. Your alternative would be to forfeit the goods (just like when the Royal Mail send you a bill for the tax and their "handling fee").

In fact, if you receive an item on which duty has not been correctly levied I believe you're supposed to declare it to the HMRC or you would be committing a further offence.

If you can prove it was a mistake by the sender (and not them acting on your instructions) I guess you'd have a civil case against them.

Since HMRC have been looking at the Jersey boys I suspect it won't be long before they start taking action.

In theory I guess another risk of ordering from Panamoz is the imposition of a Civil Customs Evasion Penalty of up 100% of tax and the destruction of the goods. Plus the tax, obvs. There's a helpful note here http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ides&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_MIG_009852 showing that they really can impose it on a private individual who is anything less than honest.
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Makes sense, still don't like it but what buyer would! Will have to think harder when I come to buy my next lens now.

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, I would be sent a correctly labelled parcel and would get stung for VAT and duty if not already paid by the seller (not sure how they do this but it's what digital revs web page says).

Though even if I was stung (by customs or by me declaring) the lens I have in mind is still £200 ish cheaper gray fully paid up and legal.


ernesto said:
I can see why people buy from overseas but just imagine if every single product anyone living in the UK bought was purchased from outside of the country. And you thought the financial mess we are in now was bad...
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Have a look at the 1st 10 items in front of you, odds on not 1 was made in the UK and so will have been purchased from abroad. This doesn't mean it's dodged VAT and duty.
 
maninsuitcase said:
Makes sense, still don't like it but what buyer would! Will have to think harder when I come to buy my next lens now.

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, I would be sent a correctly labelled parcel and would get stung for VAT and duty if not already paid by the seller (not sure how they do this but it's what digital revs web page says).

Though even if I was stung (by customs or by me declaring) the lens I have in mind is still £200 ish cheaper gray fully paid up and legal.



Have a look at the 1st 10 items in front of you, odds on not 1 was made in the UK and so will have been purchased from abroad. This doesn't mean it's dodged VAT and duty.
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To my knowledge that's not what actually happens.
 
I've just received a 24-105 f4l from Panamoz,ordered it Sunday night,got an email on Monday apologising for the delay (??) tracking number included and it was delivered today no problem whatsoever.They don't put camera/lens or anything on the label as contents description, they put Toy accessory ,which basically I suppose that's exactly what it is and I will have no hesitation in using or recommending them to anybody.As for the warranty,which should have been £10 or so but was free ,It offers an instant replacement no questions asked if the lens develops a fault in the first 12 months.Compare that with the warranty I got from cannon on my 50D which was replacement in the first three months and repair after that.
 
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chris954 said:
I've just received a 24-105 f4l from Panamoz,ordered it Sunday night,got an email on Monday apologising for the delay (??) tracking number included and it was delivered today no problem whatsoever.They don't put camera/lens or anything on the label as contents description, they put Toy accessory ,which basically I suppose that's exactly what it is and I will have no hesitation in using or recommending them to anybody.As for the warranty,which should have been £10 or so but was free ,It offers an instant replacement no questions asked if the lens develops a fault in the first 12 months.Compare that with the warranty I got from cannon on my 50D which was replacement in the first three months and repair after that.
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I'm sure HMRC have different definitions they work to :)
 
domino1999 said:
I suspect it's not as easy as you think. The amount of parcels coming into the UK every day is a staggering number and HMRC are probably only able to check a very small percentage of them.
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You're right of course. It would be much more efficient for them to run a search on photography forums and find people who say they have just received a package on which no duty had been paid.

Then leave it a week or two to give them chance to voluntarily declare it to mitigate the penalty.

They wouldn't even need those new laws they are passing which basically mean they can read any emails to or from a Hong Kong supplier.
 
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So if you buy a second hand camera on here that was a grey import are you condoning smuggling.

All gets a bit daft and how many people have paid someone cash in hand, I suspect some weekend wedding snappers are not declaring their earnings either. Have you ever downloaded music/film without paying, copied a CD for a mate or perhaps had a radio on at work which you should have a licence for.

Easy to be holier than thou, but have a good look at yourself and make sure you really are squeaky clean.
 
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Yep, completely agree with that one.

In general people find that tax avoidance/evasion is only morally repugnant when someone else does it. When they themselves do it then the reasons are of course justifiable.
 
As the OP can I apologise to anyone annoyed by my posting in the wrong section of the forums.

But to judge by the volume of replies 'buying grey' hasn't been done to death and there's still a lot that can be said on the matter.

To me the problem would never have arisen if we didn't have the internet with the possibility of online purchase from anywhere in the world. Years ago I remember buying a Super Takumar Honeywell Pentax 24mm f3.5 from a New York camera store by credit card. On the lens' entry to the UK I had to pay all taxes/customs/VAT BEFORE the lens was released to me. It still cost rather less than buying from a UK dealer, and it came from a country whose running costs must have been at least what ours were.

The problem ultimately is the fault of HMRC for NOT policing parcels as they arrive in the UK and applying appropriate duties on them. There must just be an overwhelming volume of parcel traffic and I suspect that officialdom has just lost the will or no longer has the manpower to police properly.

If Panamoz and their ilk don't pay tax then I agree it is a form of tax evasion. If Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc can do it then why can't the small guy too. I'm irritated by the London billionaire paying the same in council tax as I do etc. etc. I suppose that with the massive all-round amount of tax avoidance/evasion in the UK we are slowly sliding into a Greek style tax joke situation, but I suppose I'm showing my age .... the world is not like it used to be and we are all becoming sleazy, it's just human nature isn't it? Go with the flow.

So what to do? Having worked in the public sector all my life and just starting my retirement on a feeble pension I want to feed my hobby as economically as possible. Canon - why make such desirable products!! Buying from Panamoz means I can just about afford a 5D Mk III if I sell all my used photo gear, with not a grey import amongst it! But I won't be able to say that about any photo gear I'll be selling in the future. Sorry, but I'm voting with my wallet, I'm too poor to do otherwise!

I'll be emailing Panamoz shortly....
 
fulwood said:
As the OP can I apologise to anyone annoyed by my posting in the wrong section of the forums.

But to judge by the volume of replies 'buying grey' hasn't been done to death and there's still a lot that can be said on the matter.

To me the problem would never have arisen if we didn't have the internet with the possibility of online purchase from anywhere in the world. Years ago I remember buying a Super Takumar Honeywell Pentax 24mm f3.5 from a New York camera store by credit card. On the lens' entry to the UK I had to pay all taxes/customs/VAT BEFORE the lens was released to me. It still cost rather less than buying from a UK dealer, and it came from a country whose running costs must have been at least what ours were.

The problem ultimately is the fault of HMRC for NOT policing parcels as they arrive in the UK and applying appropriate duties on them. There must just be an overwhelming volume of parcel traffic and I suspect that officialdom has just lost the will or no longer has the manpower to police properly.

If Panamoz and their ilk don't pay tax then I agree it is a form of tax evasion. If Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc can do it then why can't the small guy too. I'm irritated by the London billionaire paying the same in council tax as I do etc. etc. I suppose that with the massive all-round amount of tax avoidance/evasion in the UK we are slowly sliding into a Greek style tax joke situation, but I suppose I'm showing my age .... the world is not like it used to be and we are all becoming sleazy, it's just human nature isn't it? Go with the flow.

So what to do? Having worked in the public sector all my life and just starting my retirement on a feeble pension I want to feed my hobby as economically as possible. Canon - why make such desirable products!! Buying from Panamoz means I can just about afford a 5D Mk III if I sell all my used photo gear, with not a grey import amongst it! But I won't be able to say that about any photo gear I'll be selling in the future. Sorry, but I'm voting with my wallet, I'm too poor to do otherwise!

I'll be emailing Panamoz shortly....
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Then why not buy from them and then declare to HMRC? Panamoz state they will pay any extras!
 
maninsuitcase said:
Have a look at the 1st 10 items in front of you, odds on not 1 was made in the UK and so will have been purchased from abroad. This doesn't mean it's dodged VAT and duty.
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That is not what I was implying. I was implying that everyone did their own imports meaning no more shops, online retailers based in UK, workers etc,.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Easy to be holier than thou, but have a good look at yourself and make sure you really are squeaky clean.
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I wondered how long it would be before somebody advanced that argument.

You'll understand I'm not making moral judgements here - by all means break the law if you like. I've done so on many occasions (well, pretty much every time I drive my car or eat a mince pie on Christmas day) but I like to know what the consequences are so I can make a value judgement.

The simple fact is that by not declaring goods that you believe to be subject to duty you are evading (as opposed to avoiding) tax and the penalties are pretty severe. Up to you if you think the risk is worth it. And also up to you to make moral decisions about the destruction of high street shops - just like some people claim music piracy killed HMV.

fulwood said:
The problem ultimately is the fault of HMRC for NOT policing parcels as they arrive in the UK and applying appropriate duties on them.
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You realise that's a little like blaming the police for not catching you speeding?
 
The way the system works is that the shipping company deal with the duty and taxes based on the shipping documents and declarations on the goods being imported
 
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