When the grey price is little more than the 2nd hand ebay price, then I know where my money is going, especially when it comes with a 3 year insurance backed guarantee. Buying a consumer item in the UK, the retailer must display prices at the full and final sale price, your boggo consumer is not going to be talking to HMRC to ensure full and proper tax is paid, no matter what the Ts&Cs say. Just look at the PPI debacle, it was all in the Ts&Cs, yet the banks etc have been forced to refund consumers, many who should've known better. I have no issues with dealing with companies like HDEW and alike, they are simply using arbitrage principles.
and please use their services
Buying grey imports
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Gramps I know plenty of people who have got camera gear off HDEW, no one has ever been chased for import duty **, tbh I think HDEW get a lot of stick online re import when clearly its all done by the book. Also given how long HDEW have been trading (and have just expanded into HDEW Extra) I think they have proven they are 100%.
As for price savings its year two you get too rub your hands as after all no matter where you buy once the 1yr warranty is up your on your own!
** how can a public company who sells online and through a bricks and mortar avoid VAT and import duty when it all passed through customs. The answer to me is simple, they do. I have never been able to avoid VAT and import duty on items I have imported, customs hold the good (or the shipping company) until duty is paid.?
As for price savings its year two you get too rub your hands as after all no matter where you buy once the 1yr warranty is up your on your own!
** how can a public company who sells online and through a bricks and mortar avoid VAT and import duty when it all passed through customs. The answer to me is simple, they do. I have never been able to avoid VAT and import duty on items I have imported, customs hold the good (or the shipping company) until duty is paid.?
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But you aren't the importers when they supply you with a vat receipt that is the whole point. It is not an argument for argument sake at all, you are just dishing out misinformation.
If you aren't into shopping the supplier then perhaps you want to contact HMRC to check your own "facts". Make certain you ask the right question and tell them that you received a UK vat invoice receipt for your product.
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Which was my point, those clauses aren't enforceable. However it varies with that company, in some instances I do think you are buying from abroad and in other instances you are not. So just get a UK vat invoice receipt and you'll be fine. Products are still grey though.
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Arther I have no issue with the service HDEW provide, reports about them and, for example, Panamoz show excellent service to their customers.
Don't you think it a little odd that they state in their T&C's that you are the importer?
Arthur have you ever bought from them and got a VAT receipt?
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I agree Gramps, asking it seems the sent invoice does not show VAT (no one I know has asked for a VAT receipt, anyone here got one?), just the total. And yes I agree its an odd statement given that they claim otherwise when asked by others. If I am honest like you I have wondered the ins and outs of it many times when I read about HDEW, and then see the service given...hard to add it up.
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I bought my D700 and 24-70 from HDEW. I went to their offices to buy them. Thoroughly nice experience and would do it again without a second thought.
Never heard of anyone having tax issues after the sale.
They've been doing what they do for over 20 years. They must be doing it right.
I'm not going to pretend to understand the complexities of tax law, but HDEW are reliable.
I also bought from Panamoz. Good delivery. Communications is another story. Non responsive to emails regarding lens stock prior to ordering, no answer to a UK phone number.
Never heard of anyone having tax issues after the sale.
They've been doing what they do for over 20 years. They must be doing it right.
I'm not going to pretend to understand the complexities of tax law, but HDEW are reliable.
I also bought from Panamoz. Good delivery. Communications is another story. Non responsive to emails regarding lens stock prior to ordering, no answer to a UK phone number.
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What does all this matter if the customer isn't pursued for any reason and gets the service and warranty support easily?
HDEW do all of this admirably.
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It matters if you are indeed the importer and liable, (of course VAT fraud, TAX fraud and theft may not seem to matter if you don't get caught... BUT?), if you aren't then I agree it doesn't matter.
Out of interest I have just emailed them concerning a purchase I made with them last year and asking about my position as importer or not and if I'm not can I have a copy of the VAT receipt for my payment ... I will update the thread on the response I receive.
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I have purchased two Nikon D7000 from HDEW in the past and I have received a VAT receipt for both purchases.
The break down on my VAT receipt >
Delivery £8.33
Nett price £399.16
20% vat £79.83
Total Price £478.99
Edit: Their VAT number on the receipt was > Vat No.671 9479 88
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To add to what I've said previously. I'm keeping track of ebay prices and putting in snipes at what I believe is a reasonable price, about 75% of new grey price, I've been outbid every single time in the last 2 weeks. Twice it's breached 90% of the new grey price.
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And in case there is any further doubt, it is a fully valid VAT number as well as anyone can check themselves.
I really don't understand this had to go down the route of @gramps calling others argumentative. Perhaps a bit of humble pie wouldn't go amiss, or at least be open that others actually know what they are talking about.
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Typical dejongi sidetrack in attacking others ... if HDEW say their customers are importers I'll wait for them to clarify rather than accept you as the font of all knowledge!
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LOL HDEW Can say whatever they like about their customers in their terms and conditions, that doesn't make it so. This is the point you repeatedly fail to understand, and when that is politely explained you go in the attack of calling others argumentative. Then when it is further confirmed by an actual customer with a broken down VAT invoice, and corroborated by me looking up the relevant VAT number on the VAT Information Exchange System, you decide against a gracious hands up I was wrong and mis-understood approach, nope you still remain in denial and say I'm attacking you? Come @gramps it really doesn't have to go this way.
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Well I'm an "actual customer" and I don't have a VAT invoice ... as Stewart suggests above, there is a question to be answered and not necessarily by anyone other than HDEW themselves.
I have never suggested that HDEW aren't VAT registered, it wasn't a question raised by the O/P (remember the original post?) the issue was and is whether VAT and Customs Duty is liable for any of their customers (as it states in their T&C's) ... so are all customers exempt from that? are some customers exempt from that? and most importantly to me, was my purchase exempt from that.
I have never suggested that HDEW aren't VAT registered, it wasn't a question raised by the O/P (remember the original post?) the issue was and is whether VAT and Customs Duty is liable for any of their customers (as it states in their T&C's) ... so are all customers exempt from that? are some customers exempt from that? and most importantly to me, was my purchase exempt from that.
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Well if you don't have a VAT invoice then you have no evidence that VAT has been paid. But that is a different conversation than what I responded to and you reacted to.
It really is simple and for all to read and see and check with HMRC, they are the only ones who can provide a conclusive response. The good are clearly grey, if the order was directly fulfilled outside the EU, and send to yourself directly, and you haven't got a VAT receipt at all, then the likelihood is that you are responsible for those charges. If for some reason it was not intercepted by the courier or customs then you should declare it. It is all there https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importing-goods-from-outside-the-eu and HMRC is very helpful in those matters.
However if you asked them HDEW and they provide you with a VAT invoice then there really is no point, you don't pay it twice.
The point/question Stewart raised is quite different in my opinion as that is questioning whether HDEW is truly doing it to the rules. And to be fair that is not of their customers concern. Very similar to when I reported a gardener (rather large company) for knocking of the VAT when I paid cash in hand. I had a chat with a friendly compliance officer and he explained that it is not my concern whether they pay their tax or not. I should enjoy the discount and leave them to HMCE for an investigation. Or alternatively the question is there as well, who is their supplier, as if you buy well then you can sell it for a good price as well.
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Probably not that difficult tbh. Procamerashop were a recent example I think & how many folk actually fell for their .co.UK addy, believing & actually arguing they were a bone fide UK retailer.
Import & if they get stopped (the vast majority probably don't) pay the dues.
Hire a logistics company/drop shipper to deliver to customer.
Some of the foreign sellers, from Hong Kong for example, ship direct from Asia & mis-lable/declare the packages as maybe `toys`, or computer spares etc..... & obviously hope the customer/importer won't get caught.
btw, I'm not insinuating HDEW are doing any of the above. I've also purchased from them.
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Well there clearly *would* be an opportunity to profit *if* the US/UK prices were as you surmised ($1500 and £1500), but in reality they usually[*] aren't.
Let's look at a real life example. I like to use the Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 IS Mk II as a benchmark, because it has a lot of desirable properties:
* it was introduced several years ago, so there are no longer any 'early adopter' premiums being charged:
* it's not being replaced imminently, so you don't have retailers trying to shift surplus stock;
* it's not sold as part of a Canon kit, so there isn't a 'white box' option to confuse the pricing;
* it's a professional lens so it isn't packaged into any bundles by retailers which again could confuse the pricing;
* it's very very popular, so all half-decent retailers will stock it.
Currently at B&H in New York this lens sells for US$1999. Today's exchange rate is £1=$1.5519, so the B&H price is £1288. Add on 6.7% import duty and you have £1374. Add on 20% VAT and you have £1648. And yet all the major UK retailers, including Amazon, are selling this lens for £1499.
And HDEW are selling it for £1275. Draw your own conclusions. My conclusions are that (i) the UK market is much more competitive than the US market, so the margins are lower; and (ii) there is no way HDEW's price can possibly include import duty and VAT. What are yours?
[*] There is one situation where UK prices are routinely out of step with other countries such as the US and HK, and that is when new products are introduced. UK retailers tend to charge an 'early adopter' premium, so we do see the situation where the initial prices are $1500 and £1500. But the differential usually goes away within 3-6 months.
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Doesn't the B&H price include all US taxes ?
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And HDEW are selling it for £1275. Draw your own conclusions. My conclusions are that (i) the UK market is much more competitive than the US market, so the margins are lower; and (ii) there is no way HDEW's price can possibly include import duty and VAT. What are yours?
On the bold part Stewart, could HDEW or similar be buying the lenses direct from Japan/HK distributor etc........and paying their taxes. As an example they could be buying the lens for £750 and then adding the duties and there profit?
Just a thought like.
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No. The custom in the US is to display prices exclusive of sales tax. It's all a bit complicated over there though. Sales tax is a state responsibility, not a federal one, and if I understand the situation correctly it isn't applied to inter-state transactions (including, obviously, most internet sales). So if you buy from the B&H store in NYC you'll pay the advertised price plus the local sales tax, but if you buy from their website you don't pay the sales tax. Unless you live in New York, perhaps. I'm not sure about that last bit.
But the general thrust is that prices advertised on US retailers' websites do not include sales tax.
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I've wondered about that too, but I don't think so.
Prices in Japan seem to be a bit cheaper than here, but not hugely so. I checked a couple of the big Japanese retailers for their Canon 70-200 Mk II: Kitamura are selling it for 229,780 yen and Map Camera are selling it for 228,400 yen. Both these prices include 8% sales tax. With today's exchange rate being £1 = 186.893 yen, those equate to pre-tax prices of £1138 and £1131 respectively.
So if you were to:
* buy from the same distributors they use;
* get the same trade prices they get (despite not having their volumes);
* ship it to the UK for free;
* pay import duty and VAT;
* make the same profit margins they do;
your UK retail price would be £1457 or £1448. That's a bit cheaper than the mainstream UK retailers, but still absolutely nowhere near what HDEW charge.
And in all these situations I'm a big fan of Occam's razor. You have to ask yourself why Amazon themselves aren't selling it for £1275 instead of £1499...
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It's all clear now since their reply:-
* "INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.
Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered.
* "INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.
Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered.
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Thanks for the reply,
For me, there are possibly a few scenarios for the lower prices looking at the Yen rate you have posted.
They are buying in HK/US Dollars. Not sure if this would make a difference. They may even buy in different currencies depending on pound strength?
They are undervaluing import. With threads like these and their expansion with HDEW Extra wouldn't C&E be all over them. I find this hard to believe with their trading presence.
They get fanatstic prices due to volumn sold. In your example of the 70-200mm lens, they may commit to 100 pieces over a calendar year or similar, multiply that by each item and it soon adds up. I worked for Jewsons for a while in the eighties and I remember that they made something like 8 pence on a bag of cement. It was due to volumn and the hope of the customers buying other items with a higher value profit. IIRC the mark up in those days was something like 33%. Not sure these days.
I suppose we will never find out their business model, but they seem to be a successful company which is growing and been in business for a while now.
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Yeah, there always are *possible* scenarios. But it always, always, comes down to this. How likely is it, really, that there is a clever legal trick but only HDEW have sussed this out? Why aren't WEx or LCE or Jessops doing it? Why aren't Amazon doing it, with all their resources?
No disrespect intended, but I sometimes think a lot of people are in denial here. Maybe this, maybe that, maybe something else, but we never want to believe the most obvious explanation.
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So what about the other obvious explanation, why doesn't HMRC intervene? They've got access to the tax records, they've got access to the turnover, they've got access to comparative industry submissions, they've got access to the import export systems, they've got access to the postal systems, etc...
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I can't answer that properly because I'm not in HMRC, but I have a couple of ideas.
One thing is that it's essentially impossible to report a company for suspected tax evasion. I've tried it. The amount of detailed information you need to supply on the HMRC reporting form is such that realistically only an insider could do it.
Another thing is that I don't think HMRC's access to data is as joined up as you imply. For example corporation tax is charged to companies but VAT is charged to 'persons' which could be actual people, partnerships, companies, groups of companies, etc. Matching up VAT records against turnover etc in corporate accounts certainly wouldn't be straightforward, and may not even be possible. And even then you're relying on the reported data being accurate and honest. I'm fairly sure that, if I chose to do so, I could run my business with two parallel sets of accounts, with the one for HMRC only displaying part of my turnover.
HMRC obviously have access to import export systems, but if stuff is being imported illegally then by definition it doesn't appear in the data. And 'personal imports', which grey market retailers are so keen on, don't have the retailers' fingerprints on them. I don't think there's much HMRC could do with that data.
I realise that this comes across as the same sort of special pleading that the deniers use. They come up with a range of possible explanations as to why a retailer might be acting legally; I'm offering a range of possible explanations as to why HMRC aren't investigating. Ironic, isn't it?
But at the end of the day we still have Occam's Razor to deploy, and I keep asking myself why Amazon aren't doing whatever it is that HDEW are doing.
Amazon are sort of doing it. If you look at the Canon 100-400 mkII on .co.uk all the sellers are from Europe starting at around £1600 from Germany, the UK sellers all selling around £1800 (apart from one). On Amazon.de the same lens is on at €1982 which is £1433 from Amazon themselves, but they don't ship to the UK. HDEW list the lens at £1449.
So are Amazon shipping grey stock into Europe? Why would Canon Europe sell lenses to Germany/France/Italy cheaper than the rest of Europe when we're supposed to have a free movement of goods?
So are Amazon shipping grey stock into Europe? Why would Canon Europe sell lenses to Germany/France/Italy cheaper than the rest of Europe when we're supposed to have a free movement of goods?
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Who says Amazon aren't doing it?
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Very interesting data, and I can't pretend to understand it.
Back to my benchmark, the Canon 70-200 Mk II:
£1159 @ Panamoz
£1235 @ Map Camera (228,400 yen) incl 8% sales tax (£1144 excl)
£1275 @ HDEW
£1294 @ B&H ($1999, excl tax)
£1313 @ Amazon DE (€1816)
£1359 @ Digital Rev
£1454 @ Amazon FR (€2011)
£1499 @ Amazon UK incl 6.7% import duty and 20% VAT (£1171 excl)
£1499 @ just about every other UK retailer incl import duty and VAT (£1171 excl)
£1504 @ Amazon IT (€2081)
The Map Camera and Panamoz prices suggest to me that there may be a global floor somewhere around £1100-£1120 excluding all taxes and import duties. But that would make the minimum legal price in Germany (6.7% import duty and 19% VAT) around £1397-£1422.
I have absolutely no idea what's going on there. As I've said frequently, I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor, and the simplest hypothesis which explains the observations is usually correct. But suddenly I find that my calibration has gone awry. I think I'll go away and wrap a cold towel round my head.....
There are cheaper deals to be had for HK locals
http://www.price.com.hk/product.php?p=115067
One seller has a grey import at 12,280 HKD which is about £1025 - and they must still be making money so the wholesale price is probably down around £900 if you are sourcing as cheaply as possible.
In most cases the HDEW price makes it plausible that tax has been paid, but I tend to agree that this is not indicative of tax actually being paid every time. Ultimately I would still be willing to buy from Panamoz or HDEW, though I appreciate that it must be an equally valid decision if you decide that is not right for you.
More than anything else, the difference between 'proper' and 'grey' prices also shows how much authorized distributors are skimming off the top. I think we should all agree that this is not in the best interests of the consumer!
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big soft moose
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big soft moose
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your uk prices are not necessarily the lowest for example WEX are doing the 6D for £1033 - so Hdew's price is only about 50 quid less
also its 0% on bodies but 6.7% on lenses
also its 0% on bodies but 6.7% on lenses
big soft moose
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fair point on WEX I must have misread it last night
However I'd still say that the majority of the price increase is duty while the rest is down to paying UK price for labour, staffing, premises etc (all of which supports the UK economy)
However I'd still say that the majority of the price increase is duty while the rest is down to paying UK price for labour, staffing, premises etc (all of which supports the UK economy)
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Well, having in the past bought from HDEW until I found out their "strange" T&C's I thought I'd try another importer that clearly states on there website "Prices Include VAT".
Camera has arrived (promptly) with a "Commercial Invoice" declaring goods worth £127. I can only assume that somebody else has received my Invoice (for a 7D MKII) by mistake...
Camera has arrived (promptly) with a "Commercial Invoice" declaring goods worth £127. I can only assume that somebody else has received my Invoice (for a 7D MKII) by mistake...