Buzzard nests destroyed by Natural England

Gaz J

Gaz J

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Natural England have issued a license to destroy four buzzards nests in Northumberland to protect young pheasants for a shoot.

Natural England have been accused of being far too close to landowners and other sporting interest groups to do their job properly.

Seems that raptors are being predates on not only by people who destroy them for their own ends but now by official organisations that are tasked with nature conservation.
 
Mindless vandalism!
 
From their site "so that people and nature can thrive" So shooting pheasants and killing buzzards is helping them thrive is it :thumbsdown: Could have fooled me!
 
It is not acceptable for a wild buzzard to kill and eat young pheasants but it is perfectly acceptable for grown men to blow the adult pheasants head off with a shotgun.

Just about sums this bloody country up.
 
I'm really in two minds about this, I come from a countryside background and can see both sides of this, I love to see all forms of wildlife especially birds of prey, though having come from a family that loves country pursuits with part of my family running a very successful company that is involved in a part of the country sports industries...

Looking at the grand scheme of things the Buzzard is not exactly endangered, we are not talking about a bird that has a massive economic pull, sorry to have to quantity it like this but it's not like hundreds of people will be visiting the area just to see them, pumping much needed funds into the local area, where as like it or loath it the shoots do bring in a vast amount of money to the local economy providing employment opportunities that otherwise would not exist

Personally I'd rather see Natural Englands budget used to pay such hunting estates to bolster there populations to account for losses to BoF etc
 
Birds of prey account for 1-2% of pheasant chicks, which is probably a considerable number. I doubt however that every pheasant reared is shot during the season and probably equate to a similar percentage as that predated.

The worst part about Natural England's decision to grant the license is that is was done without discussion with the RSPB but the National Gamekeepers Association was involved in the discussions!! Go figure that one out.

The information was only given after a freedom of information request was made. After it became public Natural England release their justification for granting the licenses and a copy of the license with the names of the applicants redacted.

Using the argument that the population of buzzards in the area is high is no justification for granting the license. That are a protected species and enough are lost to illegal methods without giving shoots the opportunity to kill more.
 
Gaz J said:
Birds of prey account for 1-2% of pheasant chicks, which is probably a considerable number. I doubt however that every pheasant reared is shot during the season and probably equate to a similar percentage as that predated.

The worst part about Natural England's decision to grant the license is that is was done without discussion with the RSPB but the National Gamekeepers Association was involved in the discussions!! Go figure that one out.

The information was only given after a freedom of information request was made. After it became public Natural England release their justification for granting the licenses and a copy of the license with the names of the applicants redacted.

Using the argument that the population of buzzards in the area is high is no justification for granting the license. That are a protected species and enough are lost to illegal methods without giving shoots the opportunity to kill more.
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What you've posted is sensationalist, as far as I understand they've been given a licence to destroy the nest, not kill the birds as I understand it...
 
Maybe not our time but in the not too distant future people will look back and ask why we treated wildlife the way we do and what happened to it.
A very sad attitude these days towards wildlife that if we don't like it then just kill it. :shake:
 
MWHCVT said:
What you've posted is sensationalist, as far as I understand they've been given a licence to destroy the nest, not kill the birds as I understand it...
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Exactly - and NE have always had the ability to grant licences for things that are usually protected - thats how bird protection in the UK works - if its on the general licence or the game list then suitably authorised people can take it/destroy nests - if its not then its protected unless subject to a specific licence.

(herons and fish farms are a classic example)

In order to get a licence the landowner has to demonstrate that the bird concerned is causing substantial loss, damage, or harm and that they have already tried all legal means and taken all reasonable steps short of applying for a licence.

People are getting excised about this particular case because its a shooting estate - but specific licences are issued to all manner of people for all sorts of reasons , so this is just business as usual for NE not a case of back handers or being 'too close' to certain concerns
 
big soft moose said:
In order to get a licence the landowner has to demonstrate that the bird concerned is causing substantial loss, damage, or harm and that they have already tried all legal means and taken all reasonable steps short of applying for a licence.
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You obviously have no idea how things work up North regarding BOP :LOL:
 
Neil B said:
Maybe not our time but in the not too distant future people will look back and ask why we treated wildlife the way we do and what happened to it.
A very sad attitude these days towards wildlife that if we don't like it then just kill it. :shake:
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This isn't actually true though, almost everything has some sort of protection - including buzzards, and a special reason is required to over-ride the protection.

They no doubt had a localised problem with predation making a shoot unviable.
Shooting is generally 'good' for wildlife as they plant cover strips and put out feed, and plant small copses etc.

I don't shoot myself but kneejerk reaction that shooting = wealthy landowners who can bend the rules to suit themselves is simply laughable if you know how things are really run.
 
4wd said:
This isn't actually true though, almost everything has some sort of protection - including buzzards, and a special reason is required to over-ride the protection.

They no doubt had a localised problem with predation making a shoot unviable.
Shooting is generally 'good' for wildlife as they plant cover strips and put out feed, and plant small copses etc.

I don't shoot myself but kneejerk reaction that shooting = wealthy landowners who can bend the rules to suit themselves is simply laughable if you know how things are really run.
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I have had some very open and frank conversations with various gamekeepers and ex-gamekeepers, lets just say things don't look good for anything that takes their game birds.
My area is a hotspot for persecuting BOP and that is common knowledge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20665220

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19269992

I won't bother filling the thread with links but if people think that all the dead birds have been found and it's just one or two then they should spend a while up on the shooting areas of the dales looking for BOP.
 
The % of game birds lost to BOP is minimal compared to other predators or traffic.However, if the BOP concentration went up, as it does on shooting estates, then that % rises. Well run shoots actually help wildlife, it is the not so well run ones that don`t.

Keepers trap mink, kingfishers increase, just one example.

Time some keepers stopped living in the past and got into the current century. I suppose I can count some land owners in that as well.But, let us not tar all with the same brush hey guys.There are good ones out there as well.
 
fracster said:
The % of game birds lost to BOP is minimal compared to other predators or traffic.However, if the BOP concentration went up, as it does on shooting estates, then that % rises. Well run shoots actually help wildlife, it is the not so well run ones that don`t.

Keepers trap mink, kingfishers increase, just one example.

Time some keepers stopped living in the past and got into the current century. I suppose I can count some land owners in that as well.But, let us not tar all with the same brush hey guys.There are good ones out there as well.
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Yip - makes sense. 4000 pheasant poults brought in where I live every July. As soon as they are released from the pens they are all over the place. Many killed on roads. Given that the number of predators is directly related to the availability of prey the fox, crow family, rodents etc all thrive. I watch nesting buzzards every year and a very common food brought to the nest are weasels and stoats, both of which are trapped by the gamekeepers. Buzzards used to be poisoned, but now clam traps are used. Keepers are killing the very creatures that control the rodents.
I don't think that shooting, per se, is a problem, but driven shoots where enormous numbers of birds are put on the ground to satisfy those that want to kill in large numbers certainly is.
Over 30 million pheasant poults are produced every year in the UK to satisfy shooting demand. Never been an investigation into how that affects the balance of nature/environment, but such numbers have got to have a significant impact.
 
Neil B said:
You obviously have no idea how things work up North regarding BOP :LOL:
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*I know there's a lot of abuse and illegal persecution - my wife is quite senior in the rspb so its fair to say I have a reasonable insight into what goes on - however none of that is relevant here as by definition abuses and illegal persecution aren't licenced.

The fact remains that it isn't easy to get a licence from NE , nor are they easily influenced by backhanders etc.
 
arclight said:
Over 30 million pheasant poults are produced every year in the UK to satisfy shooting demand. Never been an investigation into how that affects the balance of nature/environment, but such numbers have got to have a significant impact.
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Good shoots will have a .....:thinking:......maybe 40% bag on what they release. That is a very good shoot,most shoot between 25 and 35%.

So where do the ,circa 17 million poults go?

They feed just about every single predator that you can imagine, they get knocked over for the scavengers and some even end up as pets. Even more end up eating all my bloody songbird food................:D
 
MWHCVT said:
What you've posted is sensationalist, as far as I understand they've been given a licence to destroy the nest, not kill the birds as I understand it...
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You're splitting hairs. Or are you saying that destroying anything before it becomes recognisable as one of its species is ok?

And I've posted the facts. Not added or taken away. It was Natural England's statement that made the comment about there being a high population of buzzards in the area.
 
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Gaz J said:
Birds of prey account for 1-2% of pheasant chicks, which is probably a considerable number. I doubt however that every pheasant reared is shot during the season and probably equate to a similar percentage as that predated.

The worst part about Natural England's decision to grant the license is that is was done without discussion with the RSPB but the National Gamekeepers Association was involved in the discussions!! Go figure that one out.

The information was only given after a freedom of information request was made. After it became public Natural England release their justification for granting the licenses and a copy of the license with the names of the applicants redacted.

Using the argument that the population of buzzards in the area is high is no justification for granting the license. That are a protected species and enough are lost to illegal methods without giving shoots the opportunity to kill more.
Click to expand...

Gaz J said:
You're splitting hairs. Or are you saying that destroying anything before it becomes recognisable as one of its species is ok?

And I've posted the facts. Not added or taken away. It was Natural England's statement that made the comment about there being a high population of buzzards in the area.
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I'm splitting nothing, and your benefit I re-quoted and highlighted exactly what you posted and I'll make my point again, NE have not granted the shoot a licence to kill live birds, it's given a licence to destroy the nest's, you'll find that most animals will soon find somewhere else to live/bread if they're forced from there chosen location, so please take off your blinkers and read what has actually been licensed, this is a shoot/hunting estate that is actually following the rules, not illegally killing predators just for there own ends, they should be applauded not dragged across hot coals...
 
If you can be bothered to read the original thread title it says "Buzzard nests destroyed by Natural England". Nowhere have I said they have given a license to kill live birds. I see destroying eggs no differently from killing live birds.

My belief is that it should not happen and the fact that an estate is being "dragged across hot coals" is entirely down to the reputation that estates and gamekeepers have acquired by historically and repeatedly breaking the law and killing raptors.

Whilst I accept that perhaps they are now changing their approach to this problem their morality in some people's eyes is brought about entirely by their own actions.
 
Apparently, it's not just the nests they want to destroy but any eggs too!

Read this... LINK

The DEFRA minister has sanctioned this and he's a bloody shooting estate owner! Double standards at work maybe? :shrug:
 
fracster said:
Good shoots will have a .....:thinking:......maybe 40% bag on what they release. That is a very good shoot,most shoot between 25 and 35%.

So where do the ,circa 17 million poults go?

They feed just about every single predator that you can imagine, they get knocked over for the scavengers and some even end up as pets. Even more end up eating all my bloody songbird food................:D
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Spot on Ade. 4000 poults put down here last year plus what ever were bred naturally and the total bag for the season was just under 1200 birds. I carried seed for the small birds in the woods about 30 mins walk from my house every day last winter (reckon I humped about 700lb of seed all told). Latterly pheasants and pigeons were hoovering it all up.
 
Neil B said:
Maybe not our time but in the not too distant future people will look back and ask why we treated wildlife the way we do and what happened to it.
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only when there is no more wildlife, all the land is covered in concrete, steel, glass and plastic.

so about 10 years then

badgers, deer, BoP it's all inconvenient, it all costs us money and means we don't make as much profit.....

we have done this throughout history (hence why we have no bears (native) or wolves (again .. native) in the british isles anymore.

and people wonder why I am ashamed to be called a human :shrug:

the population of this country ( and indeed the world) needs to be culled by about 70% until that happens wildlife will be made extinct.

where are we heading? in the star wars films there is a planet called corosant .. all steel, glass and concrete..... that's earth in a couple of hundred years.... thank god i'll be dead long before
 
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oops dbl post sry
 
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andyst2409 said:
where are we heading? in the star wars films there is a planet called corosant .. all steel, glass and concrete..... that's earth in a couple of hundred years.... thank god i'll be dead long before
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sightly odd reaction to the actions of a shooting estate - I don't agree with illegal bird persecution which is the action of a minority of gamekeepers and farmers, but both shooters and farmers need the countryside kept countryside - they are in fact the best line of defence against a half witted government trying to "stimulate the economy" by relaxing planning laws to allow a lot of greenfield building which is a far greater threat than the legal destruction of a few buzzard eggs
 
big soft moose said:
sightly odd reaction to the actions of a shooting estate - I don't agree with illegal bird persecution which is the action of a minority of gamekeepers and farmers, but both shooters and farmers need the countryside kept countryside - they are in fact the best line of defence against a half witted government trying to "stimulate the economy" by relaxing planning laws to allow a lot of greenfield building which is a far greater threat than the legal destruction of a few buzzard eggs
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But that's my gripe Pete, the attitude we have towards wildlife, do they really think that the Buzzards will not just re-nest and lay more eggs :wacky:
 
If the average shoot is killing 40% of the available birds then the buzzards in that area must be absolutely knackered killing pheasant chicks from dawn to dusk to warrant the application to destroy the nests.

I am sure that farmers do lots of good in managing the land but they have also been responsible for changes to the landscape that have been detrimental to wildlife. Whilst an estate will manage the land for its shoot and there will be knock on benefits for other wildlife they do so because its a business. If ever the cost of rearing and running shoots exceeded the income then they will stop and the land which they look after in this way will not receive the same attention and will gradually return to nature. That in itself will change the wildlife that inhabits it.

It has been proved many times over that nature can manage itself without the intervention of man. Invariably when we are involved something has to give. Eventually a species becomes endangered and huge efforts are made to increase the population which is then hailed as a success story until, as now with red kites, people say they are becoming too numerous again.
 
Gaz J said:
If ever the cost of rearing and running shoots exceeded the income then they will stop and the land which they look after in this way will not receive the same attention and will gradually return to nature.
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Maybe, but I very much doubt it.

The upkeep on private country estates is huge, and I mean huge.These estates have to be self sufficient to a certain degree. So that means the owners have to find other income,one near me now has a holiday park on it,chalets and caravans. His shoot costs a mere £25k rent per year, I doubt anyone will take it on next year. So that estate now has to recoup that money from elsewhere, the owner is talking of 4x4 tracks,quad tracks and the like,how does that help wildlife?

Another estate has no shooting and has not had for some years now, his estate is subsidised by building let to private businesses and personel use. The owner still works damned hard in the oil industry to be able to afford the upkeep and is always looking for ways to increase revenue to keep the estate in tip top condition. We are currently working on something that may interest some on here, he has to explore all avenues to keep his estate as he wishes. So yes, he is wealthy, but has worked damned hard for it,a lot of estate owners have to do the same now.
 
I'm sure that these estate owners put huge amounts of effort and money into their land. I see the effort that local farmers put in for not a lot of income in some cases. I wouldn't and couldn't do it.

Diversifying in your business can reap significant benefits. I have a friend who has a small camera shop. He has found that he has been forced to take on a variety of other products to try and keep his business going, and it seems to be working for him.

You're right 4x4 tracks etc isn't going to do much for wildlife but I'm sure that opportunities exist for income by looking at opportunities to exploit the wildlife that they do have. It seems to be successful for several businesses around the country if the booking rates are anything to go by.

By beef is with the destruction of the nests. I have no axe to grind with estate owners. I think that attitudes are changing towards wildlife among all landowners which is to be applauded.
 
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I think that the biggest problem is that people who do wrong on private estates,think they can get away with it and that ,certain,landowners think they are above the law.

I will post it again ,and will do so until the day it happens,until land owners are held accountable for what happens on their land, are held accountable for the actions of their employees whilst carrying out their duties,then nothing will change.

Be that farm shoots,syndicate moorland shoots or the Duke of wherevers estate.
 
I think in Scotland the landowners can be prosecuted for the actions of their staff in illegal killing of protected species. Don't woof that exists in England and Wales. Probably not with this government. I was told on a recent trip to Yorkshire that gamekeepers from some of the Scottish estates had been seeking work in the county after parting company with their previous employers.
 
Gaz J said:
By beef is with the destruction of the nests. I have no axe to grind with estate owners. I think that attitudes are changing towards wildlife among all landowners which is to be applauded.
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:shake: Not around my area, maybe on the surface but if you dig a bit the truth is they do things their way and no law is going to change that.

fracster said:
I think that the biggest problem is that people who do wrong on private estates,think they can get away with it and that ,certain,landowners think they are above the law.

I will post it again ,and will do so until the day it happens,until land owners are held accountable for what happens on their land, are held accountable for the actions of their employees whilst carrying out their duties,then nothing will change.

Be that farm shoots,syndicate moorland shoots or the Duke of wherevers estate.
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In reality that's never going to happen, would certainly nip things in the bud if it did.

Gaz J said:
I think in Scotland the landowners can be prosecuted for the actions of their staff in illegal killing of protected species. Don't woof that exists in England and Wales. Probably not with this government. I was told on a recent trip to Yorkshire that gamekeepers from some of the Scottish estates had been seeking work in the county after parting company with their previous employers.
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Can't blame them for that as their seems to be no rules or BOP up on the dales. Someone's already done most of the dirty work for them.
 
Without naming and shaming Neil, i`m fully aware of what goes on up here and it is an absolute disgrace.

Keeper from a very large estate near you is in court soon for poisoning red kites. Land owner is very high in the aristocracy.
 
Just a thought... What's the legal position regarding the release of non native wildlife? AFAIK, it's technically illegal to release a trapped grey squirrel and even to deliberately feed them - do the same laws apply to pheasants?
 
What do you think?
 
Gaz J said:
I think in Scotland the landowners can be prosecuted for the actions of their staff in illegal killing of protected species. Don't woof that exists in England and Wales. Probably not with this government. I was told on a recent trip to Yorkshire that gamekeepers from some of the Scottish estates had been seeking work in the county after parting company with their previous employers.
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Yes - Vicarious Responsibility it is called. The law exists, but has never been used. I wonder why? People in high places with influence, maybe.
 
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