C41 developing issues

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Name
James
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Having returned to using film after 15 years or so of digital photography I've also started home developing my colour film (although I did black and white developing years ago). It's been going reasonably well, ie I'm getting images I can see, but I'm getting a couple of recurring issues and would welcome some suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong.

1. An orange bleed from the dividing section between adjacent frames, generally but not always when the image next to the dividing section is light, eg sky, as seen in the three pictures below - which are as scanned from a Nikon CoolScan IV with no cropping but with digital ICE (dust removeal) and ROC (colour restoration) enabled. ROC has been enabled to try and compensate for the use of expired film which has not been refrigerated.
1st film Image25-0.jpg 2nd film Image6-0.jpg5th film 06.jpg

The first picture is the odd one out as it was taken on fresh Kodak ColorPlus 200 (Olympus OM3 with 35mm f3.5 Zuiko lens) - this was my first roll shot in my return to film. The next picture was taken on expired Kodak Gold 200 (use by date 4/2002) (my 2nd roll) which was shot at 100 ASA (Olympus OM2N with 50mm f1.8 Zuiko) and the third picture was on expired Jessops SHR200 (probably 20 years old) (my 5th roll) shot at 25 ASA (Olympus OM2N 50mm f1.4 Zuiko).

The other issue is bright rays across some, but not all, of the images and they also cross the border between adjacent images.

3rd film Image6.jpg3rd film Image11.jpg
Both pictures above were taken on time expired Jessops SHR200 (use by 11/99) (my 3rd roll) which was metered at 100 ASA (Olympus OM4 21mm f3.5 Zuiko). The sun was on the left in the first picture (which also shows the orange bleed issue on the right hand side) but was behind me in the second picture and as the negative scan below shows, which is from the same roll of film, some of the rays cross the border between images. So I don't think the rays are coming from light on the lenses. The rays don't appear on every image.
3rd film Sample.jpg
Although these rays have been most prevalent on this roll (my 3rd roll) they have also appeared on other rolls such as in the picture below which is from the 5th roll (Olympus OM2N). The OM4 is a recent acquisition and the ad claimed that it had new light seals fitted - they look OK as do the ones on the OM3. I replaced the light seals on the OM2N prior to using it. So I don't think a light leak is the problem and instead I think there must be a problem in the development. The rays always seem to run from edge to edge rather than lengthways.
5th film 23-0.jpg
I've been using the Rollei Digibase kit in a Paterson Series 4 tank (loaded in a new changing bag) with a 2min 30 sec pre soak, a very short wash (fill tank and empty) between developer and bleach (as I didn't like the idea of contaminating the bleach by going straight from developer) and washes between bleach and fix and fix and stabiliser. The pre soak was agitated continuously (by inversion) for the first 15 seconds then 2 inversions every 30 secs. Agitation in the other stages has been on a similar basis and the washes between bleach-fix and fix-stabiliser have been continuous through flow from the tap.

I'm wondering if I should use a stop-bath between developer and bleach rather than the short wash and whether I need more or less agitation. The orange bleed from the divider between images has appeared on all films, although not so prevalent on the fresh film, whereas the rays, so far, have only appeared on the expired film (or have not been bad enough for me to have noticed them on the fresh film).

My first development batch (on 14 February) was roll no. 2 along with an exposed film from 15 years ago which i had never got developed at the time. Roll no. 1 (the fresh film) was in the second batch I developed (20 February) along with another old exposed film. Roll 3 was in the third batch (28 February) along with another film which had been sitting in a Zorki 4K for probably 20 years), roll 4 was the only film in my 4th batch (6 March) and roll 5 was the only film in my 5th batch (21 March). So, to date, my 1 litre Digibase kit has developed 8 36 exposure 35mm films and based on its quoted capacity and the time scale I think it should be still OK - the developer is stored in a brown glass bottle using marbles to get the level to the top of the bottle to try and minimize oxidation. Development time was extended by 15 secs after batches 1 and 2 (4 films in total) and will be extended by another 15 secs for the next batch.

All suggestions (other than give it up - your eye is terrible) gratefully received.
 
I use Fuji Express chems and the instructions are specific that you should not wash between developer and bleach as the reaction that occurs between the residual developer, the silver and the bleach are part of the colour dye formation.
 
C41 is a very specific process, so definitely start by ditching the washes between dev and bleach. They are likely to be messing up the chemical processes. Also use fresh film to rule out expiration issues.

If you’re not already, try extending the bleach and fix times by 30 to 50%. Those steps need to fully work on the film and can’t really be overdone. Under bleaching and fixing will cause problems.

The official Kodak C41 process recommends warming the film by immersing the whole tank in warm water, but not soaking the film (I.e. dry warming). I wouldn’t start a C41 process with wet film.
 
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Did you remember to oxygenate the bleach before use? It should be shaken hard for about 30 seconds. I normally do it while the dev is running.
 
Thanks dmb and FujiLove, will try the next batch with no pre-soak and no wash between developer and bleach, and thanks for the tip about the bleach.

My bleach time is 4min 20secs and fix is 6min 30secs.
 
I don't have anything to add but I am soon to develop my first rolls of colour the advice is invaluable.
 
This is a problem that happens to myself at thankfully infrequent intervals. I have also had 'bleeds' that correspond with sprocket holes on the edges of the film but usually more prevalent on the top edge. When I first saw them on the edge I thought about focal plain shutter bounce which can happen with horizontal moving shutters, but these were on my F6 which has a vertical shutter.

I also used to get the same effect with B&W on odd occasions, but this stopped when I went back to hand developing rather than being lazy and using my JOBO rotary. I have also noticed that if I set the rotation on the JOBO to the slowest setting the effect is much reduced. This is a problem that I did not get until quite recently and I have been processing colour since 1992. and I have not changed my processing technique! except I now rinse with plain water before the bleach which stops the 'gassing' when the residual developer is mixed with the bleach.

Is it the film, is it new formulations of C41 developer, the water rinse, or something else I have not considered?


Did you remember to oxygenate the bleach before use? It should be shaken hard for about 30 seconds. I normally do it while the dev is running.

I would have thought this would exacerbate the problem, the reason to oxygenate is to increase the activity and the parts that show up as clear film (orange on prints) shows over activity. One of the last films I processed with this problem showed the problem on odd sections of film and not all the way through. If it was because of lack of oxygenation I would have thought the problem would happend right through the film.

Do others use a stop bath between changes from developer to bleach rather than a plain water rinse? Do others use a seperate bleach and fix or use a blix combined bath?
 
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It's interesting reading all of the comments and advice above, certainly food for thought .

My technique which has worked successfully so far for many rolls of various film is to presoak at 38deg for about 5 mins, then I develop using 5 invertions every minute, I then rinse at 38 deg for a minute before Blixing, final rinse for 3 mins then add the stabliser for a minute, then a quick final rinse .

I use the Tetenal kit.

I may try changing the way I develop C41 to see if there are any discernible differences avoiding the prewash and wash between dev and Blix.
 
I don't use a pre-wash and never have done in the nearly 30 years of dealing with C41. Instead when I fill my Jobo processor it is always with cold water then I put the chemicals in and finally float the developing tank containing the film in the water and only then switch on. As the temperature rises the tank warms up over a long period of time which should mean it is more thorough As the water bath warms up this also warms the tank and film so when I pour in the developer it is at a same temperature as the developer and this levels out over the time of the development. The water rinse is the same temp but the bleach and fix can be anything but within 38C +/-5 degrees (This is in the destructions.-Tetenal). Likewise the rinse and final stabiliser bath are both at 33-38 C.

Notably the problems did not occur for a long time after I started processing C41. Originally it was in the superb Agfa single solution then Rollie digibase. When that became hard to find I started using Tetenal and the problem started. Is that a coincidence? I don't know.
 
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Thanks everyone for your comments.

I developed a batch of two films on Sunday, with no pre-soak, just floating the loaded tank in the middle of the sink filled with hot water and held in place by the 4 bottles of developer, bleach, fix and stabiliser while they warmed up, and going straight from developer to bleach with no rinse or stop bath. I'm pleased to say that the rays have not appeared this time although I'm still getting some brown bleed from the divider between some frames: 5 images were affected on one roll and 6 on the other.

One roll was Kodak Gold 200 with a develop before date of April 2002 which I shot at ISO 50 - two of the bleed affected images are shown below but I'm pleased at how the colours came out - the images below areas scanned by a Nikon CoolScan IV with ICE (dust removal on) but without ROC (colour recovery).

5EBB1846-CFBC-4FC1-8E76-74120DCD1DFD.jpegBD348E28-E1DB-4AD6-A452-CB2AE3F05199.jpeg
 
The other roll was Kodak VR 100 with a develop before date of October 1993. As the Jessops time expired film seemed to respond better to being over exposed than under exposed I metered this one at ISO 12. However, when developed it was rather over exposed so the scans below of some of the bleed affected images were adjusted using the 'auto' facility on the Photos app on the iPad after scanning on the CoolScan (again using only ICE) to remove some of the washed out appearance. Given the age of the film and the fact that it was not refrigerated at all, I'm pleased with the colours though.
1B225000-039E-4938-A7DB-9ED203D24550.jpeg7E477679-9E2C-49AA-83A3-3E894708D67B.jpeg836987DD-DAFE-4ED1-88A8-C55E6BA57C94.jpeg
 
What is puzzling me is why the bleed only affects some images, and only on one side, eg the last image posted above where only the right hand side has been affected. Also, in this case, the left hand side of the following image has not been affected. The bleeding seems to be more severe on the older film so I'm wondering if it is the age of the films that is causing the problem?

Looking at the Digibase instructions they recommend a pre-soak for 2 to 2 1/2mins but there is no mention of any rinse between the various steps. However, the Kodak Flexicolor instructions show no pre-soak but do include rinses between bleach and fix and between fix and stabiliser.

Given my latest results I think I will continue to omit a pre-soak. I may also extend the bleach time from 4mins 20secs to 6mins 30secs to bring it in line with the Kodak times.
c41-process-jpg.192727.jpeg
 
I think in the first post you said you were using the Rollei digibase kit, have you tried following their instructions exactly, including getting the temperatures to within 0.5C?
 
Yes, I'm using the Digibase kit. I try to get as close to 38°C as I can: per the Digibase instructions they say 37.8 +/- 0.3 (they also give times for 45, 25 and 29°C) - having measured the temp at the end of the development stage the sink waterbath seems to maintain the temperature over the development time. My understanding is that both bleach and fix run to completion and I've been advised to err on the side of longer rather than shorter times for these stages.
 
I wonder if it is your scanner that is causing some of the problem the problem? Those marks on the lower centre of the images all appear consistently in that place, but then that does not explain the bleeding at the edges. I too use a Coolscan V and given their age there may be other failings. I sent mine to a person near Doncaster who cleaned and reset it for me and the small 'quirks' it had developed were eliminated.
 
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