Calling an electrician.

[cowasaki]

Right here goes...

Household ring main.

consumer unit is "A"
sockets are --- B to G

ring goes A > B > C > D > E > F > G >>> A again

now I know that you WERE able to add two sockets to an existing socket as spurs but this has now been reduced to 1. I need to add 6 sockets from point C, so will add then as part of the actual ring (we'll call them H I J K L & M).....

so the ring should go A > B > H > I > J > K > L > M > C > D > E > F > G >>> A again

Right I have no problem with that at all BUT to break the circuit in order to add the extra sockets......

If I remove socket C the wires going to it (from B) will not extend as far as the new socket H and here is my question..........

Do I have to replace the wire from socket B to C with a longer one to reach H then the return wire from H goes back to C?

OR

Is it OK the join the wire that currently arrives at socket C to a new wire that leads to H then the return wire simply goes back to C

OR

Do I simply create a new "ring" with the start and end at socket C in a sort of figure of 8 circuit.

I have no problem creating a ring from scratch and have done in order to wire up the garage and kitchen but this is to extend a current ring so what is the current thinking on such matters.

Thanks

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Are you even allowed to do things like this yourself nowadays in this h+s obsessed country?

 

[PsiFox]

Are you even allowed to do things like this yourself nowadays in this h+s obsessed country?

Yes as long as you get it checked by an electrician afterwards. If you don't no household insurance if a fire can be shown to have started from DIY electrical work.

 

[Defiance]

Don't you have to be 'Part P' registered to do that ? Sorry it's mad isn't it !

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Yes as long as you get it checked by an electrician afterwards. If you don't no household insurance if a fire can be shown to have started from DIY electrical work.

Last "qualified electrician" I let loose in my house replaced a fuse with a nail

British tradesmen - best in the world

 

[PsiFox]

Last "qualified electrician" I let loose in my house replaced a fuse with a nail

British tradesmen - best in the world

Note I did not use the word qualified

 

[trapper501]

I don't know what changes came in with the 17th edition of the IEE rules but I understand they were quite big changes.

Perhaps you should talk to the electrician who will need to sign off this work once you have done it, otherwise it could be quite a costly experience.

When an electrician does that they have to take responsibilty for the whole of the wiring, not just the bit they test, and that might lead to all sorts of problems.

my mum asked an electrician to fit a fan recently and he said she would be better off doing without, as whilst he saw nothing wrong with her wiring, if he had to "adopt" it under the 17th edition there would be loads of work he needed to do first. Made me wonder what was in them.

 

[cowasaki]

I actually did it 5 years ago so its fine I just forgot how I did it all those years back

 

[david1701]

stupid part P grrrrrr

on my way to a masters in electrical and electronic engineering and I'm not allowed to do anything cleverer than change a socket front without having a shaved ape look at it and grunt


sorry for the rant, many electricians are very intelligent and very nice I know a few, but the idea of needing someone to check my work in my house makes my blood boil

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Note I did not use the word qualified

I know...but any inspection would, I imagine, need to be carried out by someone with some sort of accreditation :shrug:

 

[cowasaki]

Yes I re-wired my kitchen completely and wired the garage I built JUST prior to the last regs coming in ! I had checked them in order that my wiring would fit within the new regs even though they hadn't started. They do other than one socket which is 7ft from the ground on top of a cupboard (for the CO detector) which should have been a captive cable thingy but I could change that. The cable and sockets are the same and so who would know that this work hadn't been done at the same time I know what I am doing but this has to be safer and better than two 10 way mains strips going into the double socket that is currently there !

 

[cowasaki]

My current thoughts are that option 2 is looking best.....

ie.

remove socket C
detach socket C from the ring.
check which wire is coming from B and attach the new wire going to H to it using 30 amp connector block behind socket.
re-attach socket C using the return wire coming from M and the wire to D.

:bonk:

 

[Steep]

Sparkies use junction boxes all the time, they tend to be very big though so under floor is the best place to fit one (this would be instead of the iffy safetywise 30amp connection block).

 

[Steve Smith]

I personally hate the idea of a ring main. If one connection goes open circuit in the ring, you are never going to know about it as the socket is still connected in the other direction.

Much better to have spurs on cable capable of taking the whole current. Just not allowed in this country.

I prefer the system used in some American houses where the wire from every socket, light fitting and switch ends up in the basement where they are connected up as required. Also makes modifications easier but is more costly on cable.


Steve.

 

[Steve Smith]

Posted twice for some reason!

 

[Flashman]

As I understand it... If you do the work yourself, you will have a big problem when you come to sell your house and do not have the appropriate certificates. The wiring colours changed when Part P came in so it's easy for an inspector to trace what should be certified. I don't think a certified electrician can issue a certificate for someone elses work.

 

[Steve Smith]

I don't think a certified electrician can issue a certificate for someone elses work.

Possibly not legally but I know one who will for me. I have also had a CORGI registered plumber sign off gas work for me.

If someone is willing to do this for you, they have to be totally confident in your work as they are signing it off as their own work. This is particularly true of gas as you take responsibility for the integrity of the whole system before you start. I don't know if this is true for electrical work.

My view is that I will do my own electrical work and worry about getting it certified if I sell the house. None of the existing wiring or the wiring replaced in the 1980s was ever certified so the whole house would need to be checked at the time of sale anyway under the current stupid home buyers certificate rules.


Steve.

 

[trapper501]

As I understand it... If you do the work yourself, you will have a big problem when you come to sell your house and do not have the appropriate certificates. The wiring colours changed when Part P came in so it's easy for an inspector to trace what should be certified. I don't think a certified electrician can issue a certificate for someone elses work.

Certainly the certification will be called for when selling, same as planning and building regs for extensions mods etc.

I'm a bit confused about the colour change bit, I hadn't noticed a change but then I don't do that much electrics now. I did rewire the kitchen and get the Electrician to test it and approve it and I'm quite happy to put a spur in or change a fitting as allowed under the rules elsewhere in the house.

Electricians have to provide certificates for somebody else's work, the rules are that if they do anything they take responsibility for the whole installation, so they must spend all their time certifying somebody else's work.

 

[Steve Smith]

I'm a bit confused about the colour change bit.

Twin and earth cable is now grey on the exterior instead of white and the internal wires are now brown and blue instead of red and black.

I have no idea why it was changed as it makes no difference to the safety of the system. Electricians were not even allowed to use up their stock of white cable.

The new grey cable looks just like the original grey cable which was installed in my house in the 1950s.

There was some horrible black rubber stuff too but I have replaced that as some of it was starting to perish.


Steve.

 

[trapper501]

Twin and earth cable is now grey on the exterior instead of white and the internal wires are now brown and blue instead of red and black.

Ah yes, I saw it was all grey again. Most of the wiring in my house is grey anyway so that doesn't make much difference.

In a house survey nobody is allowed to remove anything so I don't see how anybody is going to use that to work out things need certifying. In the loft you can see exposed wiring but all mine is grey anyway.

Anyway, I now have the appropriate certificates.

 

[Steve Smith]

In a house survey nobody is allowed to remove anything so I don't see how anybody is going to use that to work out things need certifying. In the loft you can see exposed wiring but all mine is grey anyway.

And so is mine now. Most of mine in the loft is under 4" of loose insulation. If I ever need to get my house inspected, all of it will be!

The cynic in me thinks the change was introduced to give home buyer certificate inspectors a way to tell if wiring is new or not. It is probably covered in their three minutes of 'training'.


Steve.

 

[trapper501]

And so is mine now. Most of mine in the loft is under 4" of loose insulation. If I ever need to get my house inspected, all of it will be!

The cynic in me thinks the change was introduced to give home buyer certificate inspectors a way to tell if wiring is new or not. It is probably covered in their three minutes of 'training'.


Steve.

Shouldn't we all be recalculating cable sizes now we have our cables covered in so much thermal insulation?

The way everybody and his mother seems to be able to make a few quid out of you for doing nothing is very annoying.

Fortunately I know some good tradesman, but the opportunities for being ripped off under licence from the State seem to be multiplying.

 

[Steve Smith]

The way everybody and his mother seems to be able to make a few quid out of you for doing nothing is very annoying.

It does annoy me that someone with a little knowledge and training can judge the work of others in order to issue a home buyers certificate. Something which is not wanted by home buyers, sellers, estate agents or building societies.

Fortunately I know some good tradesman, but the opportunities for being ripped off under licence from the State seem to be multiplying.

So do I, my brother being one of them. The current trend with gas and CORGI registration is that it has become so ridiculously expensive that plumbers are going down one of two routes.

One set have abandonned the registration and do as much of the work as they are allowed and call in a registered plumber to do the rest of the work and comission the system.

The rest of them are maintaining their registration and charging a premium for doing this comissioning work for others.

I can see the electrical trade going down this path too.

Soon you will need a certificate to bang a nail into a piece of wood!



Steve.

 

[a1ex2001]

Part P is an interesting one as you are still actually allowed to do quite alot of work with out acreditation. You can do nothing in a Bathroom or Kitchen which includes low voltage lighting for some reason. You can however replace part of an existing ring main anywhere else in your house without breaking any rules this is to allow for the replacment of damaged cabaling and sockets etc so if anyone asks it was already there but had been done with poor cabaling which you elected to replace for saftey reasons, this is impossible to disprove. You can also have you work inspected for part P approval this has to be done by applying to the council for building regs and will require and inspection at the first fix stage so the inspecting electrician can see all the works exposed.

It is the same with Gas if you are working in your own home you merely need to be a competent person there is no definition of competent person and no court case has ever been bought in this country. You cannot work on other peoples property or in a property which is to be rented out and again you can get your work inspected and certified by a registered engineer which now works through capita not Corgi as tey lost the contract due to being a private boys club obssessed with making there members richer.

Back on topic if you can remove the sire and use a new piece I would purely because I hate junction boxes they are a bit messy for my tastes allthough perfectly legal.

 

[Chaz Photos]

part "P" are only required for Kitchens Bathrooms or outside.
If you keep Socket "C" then take cable to "H I J K L & M" and then cable back to "D"
Not sure on have many outlets you can have on a ring now a days It been a long time fr me as I moved from being an Spark to electronics.

 

[Steve Smith]

It is the same with Gas if you are working in your own home you merely need to be a competent person there is no definition of competent person and no court case has ever been bought in this country.

This is my understanding too. Much easier to prove incompetence than competence!

which now works through capita not Corgi as tey lost the contract due to being a private boys club obssessed with making there members richer.

Lets hope they reverse the trend of plumbers leaving the system as it is too expensive to maintain registration.


Steve.

 

[a1ex2001]

part "P" are only required for Kitchens Bathrooms or outside.

That is simply not true part P is required for all electrical work, except permitted exceptions and applies throughout the dwelling.

This is my understanding too. Much easier to prove incompetence than competence!



Lets hope they reverse the trend of plumbers leaving the system as it is too expensive to maintain registration.


Steve.

If it wasn't the case B&Q would not be allowed to sell gas boilers and fires etc off the shelf, allthough a corgi man did once tell me it was illegal for me to even move the box, I laughed.

Sadly Capita have made the system even more confusing than Corgi with different people being certified for different things using a scale that is dificult to fathom. What we really need is two agencies so you get competition and a simple way for people to become certified the Corgi system was taken the mick with what basically amounted to an unpaid apprenticship being a requirment.

To this day the worst boiler installations I have ever seen have been fully corgi certified and in one case potentially lethal.

 

[Chaz Photos]

a1ex2001
I have to say that apart from - New installation or complete rewire, Consumer unit change, Installation of a hot air sauna, Installation of ceiling or floor heating and Installation of a small scale generator (most prob outside anyhow) I stand by my first comments its only Bathrooms, Kitchens and Outside need part “P”
Areas outside of bathroom, shower room and kitchen- The Installation of an additional socket, Installation of an additional light, Addition of fused connection unit to ring final circuit, Installation or upgrade of main or supplementary equipotential bonding, Replacing damaged cable for a single circuit, Replacing damaged socket outlet, Replacing light fitting and Fitting and final connection of a storage heater, DO NOT require Part”P”

 

[Steve Smith]

Sadly Capita have made the system even more confusing than Corgi with different people being certified for different things using a scale that is dificult to fathom. What we really need is two agencies so you get competition and a simple way for people to become certified the Corgi system was taken the mick with what basically amounted to an unpaid apprenticship being a requirment.

To this day the worst boiler installations I have ever seen have been fully corgi certified and in one case potentially lethal.

That is bad news. I always thought that CORGI tried to encompass too much.

Most plumbers just need a simple certification to enable them to fit domestic boilers, water heaters, gas fires and cookers. All the industrial stuff can be covered by an optional, additional certification process.

I too have seen some awful installations by CORGI members. Conversly, just to bang my own trumpet, I was told by one tradesman that the plumbing I did at a friends house where I fitted the central heating and all other plumbing was the neatest pipework he had ever seen. I suppose where I'm not doing it for a living, I had time to do it to my satisfaction whereas some plumbers will try to do it as quickly as possible.

The worst disregard of CORGI rules I saw was the gas fitter - from British Gas who came to fit the gas meter to my first house. He did the pressure test in about 30 seconds. You are supposed to leave the system pressurised for two minutes before you take the next reading.


Steve.

 

[a1ex2001]

a1ex2001
I have to say that apart from - New installation or complete rewire, Consumer unit change, Installation of a hot air sauna, Installation of ceiling or floor heating and Installation of a small scale generator (most prob outside anyhow) I stand by my first comments its only Bathrooms, Kitchens and Outside need part “P”
Areas outside of bathroom, shower room and kitchen- The Installation of an additional socket, Installation of an additional light, Addition of fused connection unit to ring final circuit, Installation or upgrade of main or supplementary equipotential bonding, Replacing damaged cable for a single circuit, Replacing damaged socket outlet, Replacing light fitting and Fitting and final connection of a storage heater, DO NOT require Part”P”

They are exceptions and still must be done in accordance with the rules laid down in part P for which you the installer are responsible they are just not notifiable to building control. The tricky point is when replacment and extension actually constitutes a new circuit as this is very poorly defined.

 

[The_Bulb]

You need to be careful about the quantity of sockets on your ring main - the 17th edition now requires that all ring mains are protected by individual combined MCB's RCD's (MCBO's) and that these should be rated no higher than 20amps (as if a 32A ring main breaks it effectively becomes 2x 32amp radials over a 2.5mm cable) which is potentially dangerous.

In terms of your original post it would be better if you rewired the two legs of cables so that the end result is a complete ring main, with no joints, and anyone giving advice who knows what they are talking about would always recommend this if it is at all possible.

Your second method of jointing the cable would probably be acceptable if the choc-blocks you are referring to are put in their own backbox with a blanking plate fitted to it, (with plate and backbox being earthed if they are metal) As far as I am aware jointing cables is acceptable if the joint is correctly isolated and accessible for future visual inspection.

Part P of the British Standards prevents you working on your house unless you are a certified electrician and the colour changes obviously mark the change in regulations, however there is a grey area as the new coloured cable was available before the new part p came into effect, so it could be argued that you did the work before the actual start of part P (depending on the age of your house)

There should be no problem in getting the work inspected by an electrician and him/her issuing a new certificate. I always recommend electricians that are registered to the NICEIC as the testing procedure and way of presentation is standardised across all electricians who are registered with them.

 

[Suvv]

You could also install a new socket near C. Call it C2
Disconnect one cable from C and connect it to the new socket C2, then connect from C to your H,I,J,K,L,M sockets and back to C2.
Re: Part P, the more complex answers given already are correct. If you do it yourself contact the council and they will arrange for it to be checked - my brother was quoted £120 about a year ago, cheaper to get an electrician to do the work

 

[joxby]

You need to be careful about the quantity of sockets on your ring main -

This is the main problem before we go any further.......10 sockets per ring provided the ring doesn't cover more than 100sq meters of floor space.

unless its changed in the 17th, I wouldn't know, the update is £600, they can kiss my arse...

I would recommend a new ring for the additional sockets.

 

[david1701]

I would be careful with junction boxes, the problem is you add one carefully then in 20 years someone else adds one - onto it and eventually your house is a maze of wires, mine is and needs a full rewire now and tracking any faults in nigh on impossible