Camera Upgrade - The Sporting Dilema

Geoff Moore

Geoff Moore

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Geoff
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Hey folks.
So, I'm in the market to upgrade from a Canon 7D to something newer. I think the Canon R6 is the route i'm going to take. My budget is around £2.5k

Question: Is there any reason why I should consider the 1Dx Mark 2 (used) over the R6 (New)?

From a pricing point I can get the R6 new for the same price of the 1dx2 which would have at least 50k shutter actuations and likely body/cosmetic blemishes.
I have bias towards the 1dx as I like the look of it and it's all I have read about for years is 1d series offering the best performance and image quality etc...

Further context: I'm typically shooting grassroots football, under the worst floodlight's you could buy in the 1970's - That's not going to change. So i'm looking for a strong low light performer.
Output will be social media and perhaps the occasional print should a player retire and replace the outgoing club secretary :) Lenses are the 70-200mm 2.8 ii and an aging 400mm 5.6 l - I will from time to time be shooting other sports as the opportunities arise etc.

Thoughts? - On Paper the R6 is no brainer, but it looks to good to be true for real world usage. Also I'm not seeing used at the sporting events on TV yet. - New hobbies is spotting the tog on TV and trying to see what they are shooting with.

Thanks
Geoff
 
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Paul Kane in Australia used the R5 and R6 for his sports until the R3 came along. He uses the R3 for sports and the R5 for commercial work now. I had a look at the website you listed - do you have a different body for that already? I have used the R6 for basketball and last week on the coast for BIF. The 1Dx2 is too heavy and my photography is going in a different direction. I still want to do some basketball next season. I like to have two bodies so switching focal length is easy. Switching between the 1dx2 and the R6 confused my hands. I might buy a second R6 but I would never buy a second 1dx2 - too big, too heavy and too specialised for me {5'2" tall}. I am selling the 1dx2.
 
Bare in mind you loose the crop factor going from the 7D to a full frame body as well. This is the biggest thing I noticed when I upgraded my 7D to an R5 this time last year especially shooting Motorsport

My 7D was a shocker under low light - iso 400 max for clean cropable photos. The R5 is light years ahead and I am sure there is no big difference between it and the R6 - I just wanted the top screen as I use it all the time (which is not on the R6).

I would say move to the newer body for sure - best decision I’ve made photography wise.
 
Geoff Moore said:
Further context: I'm typically shooting grassroots football, under the worst floodlight's you could buy in the 1970's - That's not going to change. So i'm looking for a strong low light performer.
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I got a loan R6 from canon for a week... second day out I put it back in the box and never used it again


I thought the extra megapixels cut down to say 2000 pixels at longest would make for cleaner images.. It didnt (compared to 1dx mkii)

All the extras on the r6 over a 1dx are pretty useless for football..eye detection and all that (which worked great under poor lights but its not good for football)

But what killed it for me was shooting under poor floodlights at iso 25600 on a 400 2.8 was that it hunted... it just wouldnt focus on anyhtign without hunting for a second or two which is a lifetime in sports.. i would have missed goals and celes...

I already have 1dx and 1dx mkii .I eventually went for a used 1dx mk3 and so glad i did...

You can gte a FREE loan off canon for 2 of days (which is really three as they dont count the day it delivered and you can get to a match that evening) .. pick a time when you ahve a couple of night matches and see for yourself..

TrytheKit Test Drive

Get the first 48 hours for free when you try selected Canon products for up to 7 days with Free Next Day Delivery
www.4fill-testdrive.com www.4fill-testdrive.com


PS the R6 is even more flimsy than a 7d ..its like a toy :(
 
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That’s very high iso compared with the indoor basketball; I think doing the test drive the R series camera is a good idea. Plenty of videos to help set it up quickly. MPB have 1Dx3 used already; can’t remember the prices.
 
Mike.P said:
Think @KIPAX recently tried the R6 for football and he normally uses a 1Dx II so hopefully he will be able to give you a comparison.

Pretty sure he posted about it in the Canon R thread.
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Thanks Mike. The Pentax 60-250mm you sold me is still going strong. Not taken it of the K1 since I received it in the post :) - back on topic I see others are penning their thoughts on the R6 so I'm hoping it provides me some guidance.
 
Chipper said:
Paul Kane in Australia used the R5 and R6 for his sports until the R3 came along. He uses the R3 for sports and the R5 for commercial work now. I had a look at the website you listed - do you have a different body for that already? I have used the R6 for basketball and last week on the coast for BIF. The 1Dx2 is too heavy and my photography is going in a different direction. I still want to do some basketball next season. I like to have two bodies so switching focal length is easy. Switching between the 1dx2 and the R6 confused my hands. I might buy a second R6 but I would never buy a second 1dx2 - too big, too heavy and too specialised for me {5'2" tall}. I am selling the 1dx2.
Click to expand...

Did you decide not to accept the MPB quote in the end, I did contact you via PM on how much you wanted for the 1Dxii
 
A_S said:
Bare in mind you loose the crop factor going from the 7D to a full frame body as well. This is the biggest thing I noticed when I upgraded my 7D to an R5 this time last year especially shooting Motorsport

My 7D was a shocker under low light - iso 400 max for clean cropable photos. The R5 is light years ahead and I am sure there is no big difference between it and the R6 - I just wanted the top screen as I use it all the time (which is not on the R6).

I would say move to the newer body for sure - best decision I’ve made photography wise.
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Thank you for the comment. I cant stretch to the R5/R3 as I make zero income on the sports. Doing it mainly to help my local football club out and to get me out of my home office which I'm spending 16 hours a day living and working out of! :) ... that being said never say never and perhaps the sports photography will lead to something more healthy
 
KIPAX said:
I got a loan R6 from canon for a week... second day out I put it back in the box and never used it again


I thought the extra megapixels cut down to say 2000 pixels at longest would make for cleaner images.. It didnt (compared to 1dx mkii)

All the extras on the r6 over a 1dx are pretty useless for football..eye detection and all that (which worked great under poor lights but its not good for football)

But what killed it for me was shooting under poor floodlights at iso 25600 on a 400 2.8 was that it hunted... it just wouldnt focus on anyhtign without hunting for a second or two which is a lifetime in sports.. i would have missed goals and celes...

I already have 1dx and 1dx mkii .I eventually went for a used 1dx mk3 and so glad i did...

You can gte a FREE loan off canon for 2 of days (which is really three as they dont count the day it delivered and you can get to a match that evening) .. pick a time when you ahve a couple of night matches and see for yourself..

TrytheKit Test Drive

Get the first 48 hours for free when you try selected Canon products for up to 7 days with Free Next Day Delivery
www.4fill-testdrive.com www.4fill-testdrive.com


PS the R6 is even more flimsy than a 7d ..its like a toy :(
Click to expand...

Thank you for the detail. Its interesting to read a negative about the Camera. The internet is awash with glowing reviews that I was starting to wonder if there is not some sort of affiliate/commission going on :) - I think the test drive could be a really good option. Although image quality is paramount, I do put some stock in to how the camera feels and handles and its concerning you say the R6 is flimsy in comparison to the 7d - I think that was my suspicion looking at the endless screenshots that the R6 just doesn't look as robust.
 
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Chipper said:
That’s very high iso compared with the indoor basketball; I think doing the test drive the R series camera is a good idea. Plenty of videos to help set it up quickly. MPB have 1Dx3 used already; can’t remember the prices.
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I regularly have to start at iso 25600 and thats at f2.8 and less than 1000ss so no option really .. it sounds like the OP shoots in same sort of places

Yes I got my 1dx3 from MPB I posted a review here https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/i-bought-a-used-camera.736286/
 
Geoff Moore said:
Thank you for the detail. Its interesting to read a negative about the Camera. The internet is awash with glowing reviews that I was starting to wonder if there is not some sort of affiliate/commission going on :)
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Its probably a perfectly good camera 90% of the time... But I havent seen any of these reviews from extreme conditions that i shoot in and maybe you do...
 
KIPAX said:
Its probably a perfectly good camera 90% of the time... But I havent seen any of these reviews from extreme conditions that i shoot in and maybe you do...
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likewise I'm sure its a great camera, like you I live in the UK so getting blueskies and sunshine rather than rain and heavy cloud on match day is rarity. Typically shooting mid week football at night under floodlights next to a river which often includes shooting in fog and mist and topping out at 12800 ISO with a shutter less than1000 at 2.8 - the images are utter rubbish hence the want to improve that image quality where at all possible within a price range that's manageable for a non agency/professional.

I cant change the conditions, and I cant change the quality of the pitch lighting... and the R6 like I said in OT looks to like its the perfect camera on paper, but your real world view is giving me food for thought.
 
Thanks for the insight into the R6 @KIPAX good to hear some first hand knowledge.

I shot with the 1dxii (I've got a second on the way.... ) and they are absolutely brilliant cameras. The iii i have read is even better and Kipax speaks highly of his experience. But the ii is an amazing camera and little out there betters it imo.

The high iso is excellent on the ii but also, the dynamic range off the sensor even in good light is hard to beat at any price point. It's the real deal in every way. It's big, heavy and loud so if that's going to be an issue, look elsewhere.
 
toohuge said:
Thanks for the insight into the R6 @KIPAX good to hear some first hand knowledge.

I shot with the 1dxii (I've got a second on the way.... ) and they are absolutely brilliant cameras. The iii i have read is even better and Kipax speaks highly of his experience. But the ii is an amazing camera and little out there betters it imo.

The high iso is excellent on the ii but also, the dynamic range off the sensor even in good light is hard to beat at any price point. It's the real deal in every way. It's big, heavy and loud so if that's going to be an issue, look elsewhere.
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The mkIII for less than 3.5k used is a bargain.. its more than a stop better iso.. so what your seeing at iso 12800 I am seeing at iso 25600 and higher..

For daytime matches I am happy to use the two 1dx bodies I have.. I wont gain much using mk2 or mkiii ... but for anyhting less than sunshine I use the mkii on a 70-200 and mkiii on 400 .. perfect :)
 
@Geoff Moore have a trial wiht the r6 it costs nothign .. you can gtet 3 nights out of it.... better than spending all that money and regretting..

You might love it! :)
 
KIPAX said:
@Geoff Moore have a trial wiht the r6 it costs nothign .. you can gtet 3 nights out of it.... better than spending all that money and regretting..

You might love it! :)
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I think I will.... although the 1dxii seems to be a tried and tested solution to the problem. Poor weather is also a concern and I have read the R6 weather sealing isn't as comprehensive as the R5 which i suspect the R3 betters.... I'm confident the 1dxii weather sealing was no compromise at its price point at release, again, what I may loose in technological advance in the R6 i make up for in the 1d professional sports heritage I think.
 
Geoff Moore said:
I think I will.... although the 1dxii seems to be a tried and tested solution to the problem. Poor weather is also a concern and I have read the R6 weather sealing isn't as comprehensive as the R5 which i suspect the R3 betters.... I'm confident the 1dxii weather sealing was no compromise at its price point at release, again, what I may loose in technological advance in the R6 i make up for in the 1d professional sports heritage I think.
Click to expand...


I ahve never had a 7d but a guy who does football wiht me has one and I can tell you ...the difference betwen that and a 1dx2 is massive.. you will be blown away :)
 
Chipper said:
That’s very high iso compared with the indoor basketball; I
Click to expand...

I can imagine the R6 would be good for basketball and the eye detection usable for that.. Boxing and many other sports.. just not football :)
 
KIPAX said:
I can imagine the R6 would be good for basketball and the eye detection usable for that.. Boxing and many other sports.. just not football :)
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It is good for basketball but the eye focus gets really confused very quickly in the melee under the basket so I don't use it. Having said that, I think I am a firmware upgrade behind so it might be better.
 
Geoff Moore said:
Did you decide not to accept the MPB quote in the end, I did contact you via PM on how much you wanted for the 1Dxii
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Hi Geoff. Apologies - I didn't see the message; just went and looked and nothing there - I did delete my DM to you as I had believed it was going to be sorted on Monday and there was no chance of us sorting anything out by then but they were closed. Anyway, I am sending it to them tomorrow; if they change the quote significantly, I will not accept it. If you are still interested on that basis, I may well post on here as I can't according to forum rules do anything else. I am in Worcestershire too.
 
Chipper said:
Hi Geoff. Apologies - I didn't see the message; just went and looked and nothing there - I did delete my DM to you as I had believed it was going to be sorted on Monday and there was no chance of us sorting anything out by then but they were closed. Anyway, I am sending it to them tomorrow; if they change the quote significantly, I will not accept it. If you are still interested on that basis, I may well post on here as I can't according to forum rules do anything else. I am in Worcestershire too.
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No problem. If it does fall through post on the forums as per the rules and let me know asap as I have cash ready. (price dependent of course)
 
KIPAX said:
I ahve never had a 7d but a guy who does football wiht me has one and I can tell you ...the difference betwen that and a 1dx2 is massive.. you will be blown away :)
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I'm hoping to find out sooner rather than later... in comparison to my original post I feel I'm now leaning to a 1dxii as the cost used and performance uptick over my 7d combined with the amount of usage it will get is now outweighing the additional cost of the R6 Plus adaptor and tech I probably wont use. The weight saving would have been nice, but as Boris the blade would say "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work you can always hit them with it."
 
Geoff Moore said:
I'm hoping to find out sooner rather than later... in comparison to my original post I feel I'm now leaning to a 1dxii as the cost used and performance uptick over my 7d combined with the amount of usage it will get is now outweighing the additional cost of the R6 Plus adaptor and tech I probably wont use. The weight saving would have been nice, but as Boris the blade would say "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work you can always hit them with it."
Click to expand...

I am a pensioner and I use the whole 1dx range....... whats all this weight worry haha
 
I agree with the difference between 7D2 and 1DX2- no contest.
 
Geoff Moore said:
I think I will.... although the 1dxii seems to be a tried and tested solution to the problem. Poor weather is also a concern and I have read the R6 weather sealing isn't as comprehensive as the R5 which i suspect the R3 betters.... I'm confident the 1dxii weather sealing was no compromise at its price point at release, again, what I may loose in technological advance in the R6 i make up for in the 1d professional sports heritage I think.
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Will do. It would be good to be able to hand it over to someone locally if they play hardball.
 
KIPAX said:
I got a loan R6 from canon for a week... second day out I put it back in the box and never used it again


I thought the extra megapixels cut down to say 2000 pixels at longest would make for cleaner images.. It didnt (compared to 1dx mkii)

All the extras on the r6 over a 1dx are pretty useless for football..eye detection and all that (which worked great under poor lights but its not good for football)

But what killed it for me was shooting under poor floodlights at iso 25600 on a 400 2.8 was that it hunted... it just wouldnt focus on anyhtign without hunting for a second or two which is a lifetime in sports.. i would have missed goals and celes...

I already have 1dx and 1dx mkii .I eventually went for a used 1dx mk3 and so glad i did...

You can gte a FREE loan off canon for 2 of days (which is really three as they dont count the day it delivered and you can get to a match that evening) .. pick a time when you ahve a couple of night matches and see for yourself..

TrytheKit Test Drive

Get the first 48 hours for free when you try selected Canon products for up to 7 days with Free Next Day Delivery
www.4fill-testdrive.com www.4fill-testdrive.com


PS the R6 is even more flimsy than a 7d ..its like a toy :(
Click to expand...
Wasn’t it the R5 you loaned?
The R6 has the same pixel count (sensor) as the 1dxIII (so… no point)

To the OP, the answer is fairly straightforward, if you want a pro body built to take knocks, the 1dx series is it.

But if you could live without that? Then the R6 is amazing.
 
KIPAX said:
I got a loan R6 from canon for a week... second day out I put it back in the box and never used it again


I thought the extra megapixels cut down to say 2000 pixels at longest would make for cleaner images.. It didnt (compared to 1dx mkii)

All the extras on the r6 over a 1dx are pretty useless for football..eye detection and all that (which worked great under poor lights but its not good for football)

But what killed it for me was shooting under poor floodlights at iso 25600 on a 400 2.8 was that it hunted... it just wouldnt focus on anyhtign without hunting for a second or two which is a lifetime in sports.. i would have missed goals and celes...

I already have 1dx and 1dx mkii .I eventually went for a used 1dx mk3 and so glad i did...

You can gte a FREE loan off canon for 2 of days (which is really three as they dont count the day it delivered and you can get to a match that evening) .. pick a time when you ahve a couple of night matches and see for yourself..

TrytheKit Test Drive

Get the first 48 hours for free when you try selected Canon products for up to 7 days with Free Next Day Delivery
www.4fill-testdrive.com www.4fill-testdrive.com


PS the R6 is even more flimsy than a 7d ..its like a toy :(
Click to expand...
One of the very few negative reports on the R6 I have seen. I have only recently acquired a 1DX and I find it great compared with my 7dii and 5d iii so I am hardly up to date. Yet to be tempted by the latest mirrorless Canons.
 
Brentor said:
One of the very few negative reports on the R6 I have seen. I have only recently acquired a 1DX and I find it great compared with my 7dii and 5d iii so I am hardly up to date. Yet to be tempted by the latest mirrorless Canons.
Click to expand...

I'm swaying towards the 1dxii as its tried and tested and requires nothing more to support my current canon lens line up and for what I need i think it will give me better image quality im looking for at a price thats close to £500 cheaper than the R6 - I have to remind myself that since having a go at shooting sports in January, the canon gear has been on the shelf unused in 4 years. So, investing in the latest and greatest for me, might end up the shelf again at some point.
 
Geoff Moore said:
I'm swaying towards the 1dxii as its tried and tested and requires nothing more to support my current canon lens line up and for what I need i think it will give me better image quality im looking for at a price thats close to £500 cheaper than the R6 - I have to remind myself that since having a go at shooting sports in January, the canon gear has been on the shelf unused in 4 years. So, investing in the latest and greatest for me, might end up the shelf again at some point.
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It’s probably the right move for you.
Just a couple of assumptions to challenge:
Depreciation wise, the R6 will fare better than a 1d.
The R6 is the same image sensor as the 1dxIII so in IQ terms should be a slight improvement on the 1dxII.

But I think if my primary aim was shooting sports, I’d have gone the 1d route years ago, as it is, I mostly shoot the grandkids and travel nowadays, so the smaller lighter R6 is perfect for me.
 
Phil V said:
Wasn’t it the R5 you loaned?
The R6 has the same pixel count (sensor) as the 1dxIII (so… no point)

To the OP, the answer is fairly straightforward, if you want a pro body built to take knocks, the 1dx series is it.

But if you could live without that? Then the R6 is amazing.
Click to expand...


OMG was it! OMG serious? aaaaaaaaaaaaargh :(

I GIVE UP :(
 
Thanks for everyone's advice and recommendations. Decided to go with the Canon 1dxii found a mint one with box and accessories and <20k shutter count for £2k on the Mark. Surprisingly no heavier than the 7D with battery pack which is a good thing!

Now, I should list the Canon gear I know longer use or need :)
 
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