Can I please get advise on my first product photo/lighting setup?

[SLR-Roger]

I am using a Nikon D7500 with a 18-140mm lens and a decent tripod. The lights I have are 2 5x40watt soft boxes as can be seen in the photos. A 150watt metal halide to light the backdrop, I also have 2 umbrellas and some house lamps. In the seine I only use one light-bulb per soft-box, also I forgot to turn the ceiling light off resulting in a little orange on the object. If I turn all 10 softbox lights on I do not have enough power to wash out the back drop. I could spend money on a second MH hood/bulb, as I already have a second ballast, or I could upgrade to a 600watt for 100-200USD but I would rather save the money as I see no need as shooting at 2 second speed is no big deal.

• The product photo is shot at 2, F22, 100 ISO. Focul lengtrh of 42mm, white balance set to auto 1 0,0. Color space sRGB
• My goal is to sell some of my junk on ebay and craigslist.
• The studio pictures were shot at 1/10,F22,ISO100,18mm: 1/10,F6.3,ISO100,18mm: the one showing the sine foil covered window with studio lights off is 1/10,F6.3,ISO2200. All pictures are shot with JPEG. Non product photos I always shoot in RAW. They can be found here at my future personaly gallery site: http://slrroger.com/Product-Photos/

Things I already plan to do for today's shoot:

• VR was on probably should have had that off.
  
• Rotate the foam a few degrees clockwise so it is perfectly horizontal.
• Wash the item and roll the cord neatly.
• Turn the obnoxious orange halogen ceiling light off.
• Try a few different angles and rotate the controller.

Questions:

1. Do I have enough room between the tripod and backdrop, how is my spacing from object to camera and object to backdrop?
2. Is my dollar store foam board a detriment to the photo, do I need to upgrade it?
3. Is there a way to make the foam board washed out like the background, will it actually matter? Would I use suspended glass for this with overexposed white floor?
4. Should I change the up and down pitch angle of the head, and/or the height of the tripod, adjusting the height? (seems like a lot of hassle when I will need to do this over 100 times) maybe there is a way to do this by just changing the angle of the foam?
5. Is the fact that the backdrop is a different type of light effecting the white balance?
6. Do I need to change the white balance to manual and set it to the soft-box temp?
7. Other then the window, is there any other places I should cover with cine foil?
8. Any other things I need to change to make the shot look more appealing/any extra advise? I r noob, need to gitgud.
9. Would you send me a message back in time telling me that spending almost 3k the first year on this hobby might have not bean the best idea? ;-)

 

[Cobra]

Post approved from the queue, make one more post and you are off the mark

Edit make that 2 as you have deleted your own posts..

 

[riddell]

By your post it shows that you have the wrong attitude when it comes to product photography, and indeed any photography.

You can't obsess about a setup and post all the little micro details on a forum and expect a straight answer. I'm a professional product photographer and the simple answer is that there is not one setup, not even close to it. It totally depends on the product you are shooting and how you want to shoot it. I often vary or even change my setup two dozen times a day. It constantly changes as the product changes or for different customers.

If this is something you want to do, then you need to get into that headspace and just learn and work out what you need to change constantly all the time.

One piece of advice though, it would be a lot better to use proper studio strobes though.

 

[Garry Edwards]

OK, I've looked at your link and the only comment I can make from that is that you've put the lights where convenient to you, i..e. out of the way, instead of where they should be, which is much, much closer to the subject. I'll try to answer your specific questions.
1. You have enough space. As for the background, see my answer to 3.
2. It doesn't matter, for this purpose
3. Yes, you can make it white by putting extra light on it but again, for this purpose, it doesn't matter
4. Ideally, you need lots of photos taken from different angles and with the camera at different heights
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Doesn't matter
8. What you're doing isn't really product photography at all, it's just illustrative photos for selling on Ebay, and what you should be concentrating on really is getting lots of photos that show the various products at different angles, that show any faults that they may have, and that show potential customers exactly what they will be buying. Now, I am primarily a product photographer (or at least I was before I retired) so I tend to have strong views about doing things properly, but I am also involved in a charity that raises money by selling second hand things on Ebay. A while ago, we experimented with making both the listings and the photography much more 'professional' and you know what? Sales went down! All of our charity sales are 100% genuine but we found that most people feel that amateurish photos and poor copywriting look more genuine, so all that we now do is to take lots of photos in a light cube, and just crop them to size. My guess is that you're over-thinking this, and that there is no need to go for a 'quality' look.

EDIT - post crossed with Paul.
I pretty much agree with Paul's viewpoint, but think he is being a bit harsh - and anyway, I'm the guy with the reputation for being brutally honest and rude on this forum

Just about everyone and his dog seems to believe that there's a 'professional setup' for product photography, whatever that actually is, and this mis-belief is also shared by many who consider themselves to be professional - included in that is what I call "Packshot Factories" - those commercial studios that have a huge throughput of so-called professional product photos, staffed almost entirely of min pay people whose only training is clearly in producing over-lit, bland photos against a white background - so who are we to be critical of amateur photographers who share the same misconceptions?

The simple fact of the matter is that there is nowhere where even professionals can learn, the large specialist photography firms are no more, and everything today is based on large-volume Amazon selling, where 'good' photography isn't needed and where the vast majority of photos are, and need to be, produced in-house to keep costs down and to keep up with the massive SKU range.

When I was workign with Lencarta I produced a range of detailed lighting tutorials for their Learning Centre and, popular though these were, I got constant negative comments about the quality, simply because every one of my tutorial shots is totally unretouched, simply because I strongly feel that a tutorial about lighting should show what the lighting actually does, which means posting shots that are SOOC - obviously, as I constantly make clear, there will be pp work later. But look on the most popular "Learning Resource" - Youtube - where the vast majority of tutorials include shots that are so heavily retouched that that it's virtually impossible for anyone to actually learn anything from the video, and in some cases it's obvious to a knowlegeable viewer that the shots weren't even taken using the lighting setup shown. These videos usually take one of two forms, either they are 'fluff' videos designed to sell the equipment shown in them, or they are designed to sell subscriptions to an online tutorial site.

So, I come back to the question - where are people supposed to learn these skills? And the answer, as always, is that they can only learn by first understanding the principles of lighting, and then by experimentation.

 

[SLR-Roger]

So basically If I am understanding correctly:

1. I need to bring the lights closer to the object.
2. Set white balance manually.
3. Trial and Error until I get better results.
4. Take 'many photos', is that around 10? (Front, back, right, left, 4 O clock, straight on from top and a few angle shot in between) Or are you saying closer to 50?
5. Do not call it "product photography"
6. Do not fear them falling short of perfection as having to nice of photos might give the impression I am a 'used car salesman' or such.

10.So it gets me thinking, can I group my items by size and change height of tripod after taking pictures of all same size items to save time would that be the way to go about it?
11.Should I use Capture one to fine tune the photos for ebay? (Just seems like overkill as I can use a basic photo viewer to crop them so much quicker.)
12.whats the history behind this?
Thank you both for the feedback, I need more practice, and yes I WANT nice strobes. Sad though as I am already over budget. Most of what I like doing is landscape photos, and pictures of buildings and things I want to save for later. Consider me the proto-tourist! Thanks Cobra for letting the link through! I deleted second post as it added nothing to the thread.

 

[Cobra]

whats the history behind this?

It goes way back even before the Dinosaurs rules the earth, traditionally its bribe for Mods, but I prefer a brown envelope stuffed with fivers

Thanks Cobra for letting the link through!

No problem
All new members that post a link, in their first 3 posts the post goes into a "mod queue" we then check it manually to see that its not spam.
And yes spam ( posting) is a real issue, at times, it can be dozens per hour.

 

[riddell]

1.I need to bring the lights closer to the object.
No, not really, but maybe, but probably not. It all depends. This is the kind of thing that without be rude or too harsh you need to understand the basics of lighting. Bringing a light back or forth alters its properties, bringing it closer makes it more contrasty, changes the shadows, alters the angle of the light falling on the product and the spread. And it really depends on the modifier too, and the power setting.

2. Set white balance manually.
That's a more straightforward answer. Yes. Always.
3. Trial and Error until I get better results.
Read, study, learn, practise, practise, practise, read, learn study some more and practise, practise, practise, again.

4. Take 'many photos', is that around 10?
Whatever you want, I have many clients whom take about 3 or 4 and many that also take around 10.
5. Do not call it "product photography"
You can, but its well known and documented that the bottom of the totem pole photography wise is ebay photography, packshot stuff can be low too, but ebay is definitely at the bottom. Amazon is much more demanding, they insist on pro quality photography. But saying that, over the last year or two I'm picking up clients who sell on ebay, and are trying to stand out from their rivals and look more professional by using proper professional photography, and they are saying it is making a huge difference to sales. I have one client who sells allsorts of Chinese made products, but so do about 30 rivals, all using the same stock photography from the manufacturers. It was becoming a cut throat price war. Since I've been shooting for him he has put his prices up about 20 - 30% and is reporting sales increases of about 30% as well, despite competitors still selling the same products much cheaper. He tells me he receives loads of feedback that he just looks so much more professional and trustworthy because of the quality images that they are going with him.
6..So it gets me thinking, can I group my items by size and change height of tripod after taking pictures of all same size items to save time would that be the way to go about it?
Maybe. Or group them by type or reflectiveness or whatever you need to. But if you need to change the tripod / lighting or indeed anything else. Change it. Get a better photo.

7.Should I use Capture one to fine tune the photos for ebay? (Just seems like overkill as I can use a basic photo viewer to crop them so much quicker.
Capture One is way more than just a cropping tool.

 

[SLR-Roger]

"Capture One is way more than just a cropping tool." I know that. But should I be messing around with contrast and ramps and such or is that cheating? Do other sellers 'enhance' there images?

 

[Garry Edwards]

- and then go back to taking them themselves

6..So it gets me thinking, can I group my items by size and change height of tripod after taking pictures of all same size items to save time would that be the way to go about it?
Maybe. Or group them by type or reflectiveness or whatever you need to. But if you need to change the tripod / lighting or indeed anything else. Change it. Get a better photo.

Once again, I agree. But I would add that they should be grouped by shape, reflectivity or texture, because each of these groups require different lighting.
For example, highly reflective subjects almost invariably need a large light source very, very close to the subject, so that the specular reflections (reflections of the light source) are large, soft and diffused, and you can see through them to the product below https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-blog/controlling-specular-reflections/#.VjzW6ysl-hE
And if the subject has a strong texture, the light usually needs to be much further away, and at an acute angle, to reveal the texture.


The problem is, the (real) answer to almost every question has to be "it depends" - which isn't helpful.
All of the answers become much clearer once you have established some kind of plan, for example what is it that you are trying to show in your photos?
If the answer is simply to show exactly what it looks like (typical catalogue-style shot for Ebay, then you don't need to get clever with the lighting, and you'll be fine with bland, flat lighting that doesn't create shadows.
But, if you want to produce photos that create a 'want' in the prospective buyer, so that they want to own it, touch it, enjoy it, then it becomes much more complex because you then need to create the right highlights and the right shadows in the right places, and effectively turn a 2-D shot into a 3D one

Edit: Half of what I wrote seems to have disappeared, will try to put it right, at which point my post will hopefully make sense.

 

[SLR-Roger]

I posted a few more photos up. Well when I move the diffuse boxes closer to the object I run out of back drop lighting really quick. First I used cine foil under the built in flash at max power that thing is a joke. I almost had it with the soft boxes about 2 feet from subject with the umbrella stand lights using cine foil for light blocking. I like the look when the soft boxes are real close, it seems better. I have a couple of options the first I will try tomorrow which is take the defuse sheets out of the boxes and turn all 10 lights on to light the back drop and use the umbrellas for the subject. The other option is buy more lighting to flood it out all the way. For this I seem to have a few options:

1. buy a nice used 400/600/ or 1000 watt MH setup with a nice high color spectrum. (This has the downside of having a bulky box on the floor were it might get in the way of future models legs or having to hang it at a angle pointing at the backdrop.)
2. Buy a set of used lights such as 'DYNALITE COMET TWINKLE TWO F II HEAD KIT W/STANDS, UMBRELLAS, CASE' which I can get for $340 kind of pricey at the moment. (another downside is that it is a strobe and I do not think it can flash and sink to 24fps video so it would not work for video.)
3. I could also get a bunch of 5500K LED lights and make them work I have the ability to custom build that type of thing.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I posted a few more photos up. Well when I move the diffuse boxes closer to the object I run out of back drop lighting really quick. First I used cine foil under the built in flash at max power that thing is a joke. I almost had it with the soft boxes about 2 feet from subject with the umbrella stand lights using cine foil for light blocking. I like the look when the soft boxes are real close, it seems better. I have a couple of options the first I will try tomorrow which is take the defuse sheets out of the boxes and turn all 10 lights on to light the back drop and use the umbrellas for the subject. The other option is buy more lighting to flood it out all the way. For this I seem to have a few options:

1. buy a nice used 400/600/ or 1000 watt MH setup with a nice high color spectrum. (This has the downside of having a bulky box on the floor were it might get in the way of future models legs or having to hang it at a angle pointing at the backdrop.)
2. Buy a set of used lights such as 'DYNALITE COMET TWINKLE TWO F II HEAD KIT W/STANDS, UMBRELLAS, CASE' which I can get for $340 kind of pricey at the moment. (another downside is that it is a strobe and I do not think it can flash and sink to 24fps video so it would not work for video.)
3. I could also get a bunch of 5500K LED lights and make them work I have the ability to custom build that type of thing.

I think that you're now seeing some of the downsides of using continuous lighting - very little real power, very little power adjustment and you're getting a horrible green colour from somewhere - it could conceivably be light reflected from the green curtains but more likely it's from your metal halide lights, that go green once they are past their best.

As I keep saying, your photos really don't need to be anything special for selling second hand bits and bobs on ebay, but if you're seriously thinking about doing portraiture, or serious still life, then my advice would be to get studio flash, and the first job for it would be to photograph your continuous lights and then put them on ebay...

 

[SLR-Roger]

Ok I just swapped out the soft boxes for the umbrella and posted the results they are at 1/2,F22,ISO125, I think I need to step the exposure up a bit. The umbrellas do not defuse as nicely but for the 400-1000 I would need to spend on a new lighting set up I think this will be good enough for now. Anything else I can do for free/cheap to improve? Thanks for the all the advise so far! Although I get the impression that I am too much of a noob for this forum, am I right? This is my first SLR and I have not even had a camera sense 2012 when my ~$200 GE all in one got nabbed at a gas station during a road trip. Any tutorial series you could recommend to me? I have been thinking about picking up a couple library books on the subject, are most books decent for a new hobbyist or are most of them just like the 'free' content online, just printed to make the author money as they are not good enough to make a living from there photos? (Or at least I get that impression from Paul's commit and my own experience with other things online) I like the idea of a book, as I do not have a 10bit monitor so the colors would look more accurate in print.

Edit: I just added a few more pictures with grey scale sheet, each one is one setting step down on shutter speed from 1/2 down to 2.5 sec. Which is the closest to best exposure, I think it is likely DSC_9451 which was
Shutter Speed: 1.6 sec
Aperture: f/22
ISO Sensitivity: 125
would you agree?

 

[Faldrax]

One thing that might be worth noting - you have set your aperture to F/22, which is a very small aperture, more usually you would use something like f/8 to f/11.
This will effect the exposure, which will give you a faster shutter speed, which will make things simpler for you.
- If you are unsure of the 'exposure triangle' of Shutter, Aperture and ISO I would suggest reading up on it (there are a number of free explanatory tutorials on the web which will explain things for you).

 

[riddell]

I get the impression that I am too much of a noob for this forum, am I right? This is my first SLR

No, you are not too much of a noob for the forum, everyone is welcome, but you are a noob when it comes to product photography, specifically that you are trying to achieve professional results, without doing things in a professional manner.

Unfortunately a lot of people think its easy and lots of other noobs will tell you so, but its not. As a full time professional photographer who shoots lots of different work, fashion, architecture, events, products, I can tell you in a straight manner that product photography is in the trickiest bracket. Its also the photography that requires the most equipment out of everything I shoot. Basic event photography requires only a single bag of equipment, most architectural photography just 2 bags. For on site product photography I take along about 12 bags of kit along and all of those are much bigger and heavier bags than the single bag I'd take along to basic event photography.

Its for this reason that a huge percentage of ebay sellers just take images with a phone, upload, done, especially those with one off secondhand equipment. Are you just making a mountain out of a molehill for yourself?

my advice would be to get studio flash, and the first job for it would be to photograph your continuous lights and then put them on ebay...

Have to totally agree with Garry here. Again I know you'll read on the internet about loads of noobs trying to use them for photography, but the reality is that no one really does professionally for so many negative reasons.

The only pros are they are cheap, and easy to achieve a so, so result.

 

[SLR-Roger]

So are strobes a lot better then LED by a large margin, as you did not seem to like option 3? I can use two separate power supplies for the slightly color and the slightly warmer LED so it can be balanced with two knobs. I just do not like the idea of spending a ton on strobes as I do not think they flash fast enough for video work, and I would like to keep that option open.

"One thing that might be worth noting - you have set your aperture to F/22, which is a very small aperture, more usually you would use something like f/8 to f/11." Well everything is on a steady tripod so I could have a 5 sec exposure and be just fine if needed, I just set it to max as I wanted to not have to worries about anything being out of focus. You are right though F22 is a bit extreme, I will try setting it to F8 or so, with my lens how many feet of sharp depth of field will that give me would you say?
Edit: When holding the camera for still life/objects I can get ok results at 1/10 and I have a friend who can do it at 1/8, does that seem about right or do you go faster or slower when standing still holding camera viewfinder up to your eye?

 

[SLR-Roger]

I am learning how much of a pain it is to put the SD card in my computer to check, I think I will set up my laptop to tether to the camera. Lots of work to be done!

 

[Garry Edwards]

No, you are not too much of a noob for the forum, everyone is welcome, but you are a noob when it comes to product photography, specifically that you are trying to achieve professional results, without doing things in a professional manner.

Unfortunately a lot of people think its easy and lots of other noobs will tell you so, but its not. As a full time professional photographer who shoots lots of different work, fashion, architecture, events, products, I can tell you in a straight manner that product photography is in the trickiest bracket. Its also the photography that requires the most equipment out of everything I shoot. Basic event photography requires only a single bag of equipment, most architectural photography just 2 bags. For on site product photography I take along about 12 bags of kit along and all of those are much bigger and heavier bags than the single bag I'd take along to basic event photography.

Its for this reason that a huge percentage of ebay sellers just take images with a phone, upload, done, especially those with one off secondhand equipment. Are you just making a mountain out of a molehill for yourself?



Have to totally agree with Garry here. Again I know you'll read on the internet about loads of noobs trying to use them for photography, but the reality is that no one really does professionally for so many negative reasons.

The only pros are they are cheap, and easy to achieve a so, so result.

I agree, and although you have already said as much, I would stress that product and other still life photography also requires a far higher standard of both skill and knowledge than any other genre that I have personally worked in.

So are strobes a lot better then LED by a large margin, as you did not seem to like option 3? I can use two separate power supplies for the slightly color and the slightly warmer LED so it can be balanced with two knobs. I just do not like the idea of spending a ton on strobes as I do not think they flash fast enough for video work, and I would like to keep that option open.

"One thing that might be worth noting - you have set your aperture to F/22, which is a very small aperture, more usually you would use something like f/8 to f/11." Well everything is on a steady tripod so I could have a 5 sec exposure and be just fine if needed, I just set it to max as I wanted to not have to worries about anything being out of focus. You are right though F22 is a bit extreme, I will try setting it to F8 or so, with my lens how many feet of sharp depth of field will that give me would you say?
Edit: When holding the camera for still life/objects I can get ok results at 1/10 and I have a friend who can do it at 1/8, does that seem about right or do you go faster or slower when standing still holding camera viewfinder up to your eye?

f/22 is a bad idea for various reasons, even with the camera on a heavy duty studio stand. If your camera has a cropped sensor you shouldn't use any aperture smaller than f//11 unless you really need to, and if it's full frame then you should regard f/16 as your minimum, because at very small apertures you will suffer quality loss (variable, depending on the f//) caused by diffraction limitation.
Depth of field depends on a lot of factors that we don't know about, so measure your shooting distance, key in sensor size, F and f into a DOF chart and you'll get the answer.

You'll need to keep your continuous lighting for video, that's what it's for, flash won't do.

Typical minimum shutter speed for hand holding a camera is around 1/60th to 1/100th for most people. Personally, I've always managed with very slow speeds but that's because I've been a rifle shooter all my adult life and so know how to keep still.

 

[MidnightUK]

Please do not be intimidated by being new at product photography or discouraged from posting here, people are clearly happy to try and help you. Lighting can be hard to explain in words, it is easier to show people in real life. Also no one is born knowing things, we all start somewhere and we all ask basic questions to start with, whatever we are learning about.

It may be worth you trying to find a product lighting or studio lighting course to go on, or to see people in your own residential area who do studio photography and who may let you observe some sessions. Facebook or a local camera club may be able to help with this. Lencarta used to do lighting days, lots of other places too. The RPS at Bath do product lighting courses sometimes now.

Re video lighting, which I think no one has answered yet:

No, strobes will not work as video lights, they illuminate only for a fraction of a second. You will not get enough rapid flashes for long enough to cope with filming.

It is possible to buy pre made LED Panels but the light from them is difficult to control (shape) in some ways, when compared to strobes. There are a lot less light modifiers available to help control where the light from them falls. I suspect this will improve in the next 2 - 5 years along with LED technology. Most LEDs are combined togeather in panels of many LEDs. In the last couple of years single source (1 LED) light units, which look very like strobes are beginning to appear but they are not very bright yet, but are more suitable for light shaping than the flat panels are.

Strobes do have modelling lights, which are continuous lights built into the flash unit. These can stay on for long periods (unless your modifier restricts air flow and cooling too much, depends on the design) and are intended to help you set up your light placement, so you can see how the strobe light will fall upon your subject, when the strobe is fired.

Modelling lights can be LED bulbs or Halogen. The halogen ones are usually 150w or 250w, if you buy a strobe find out first what power modelling lights it can cope with. I do not know if the higher 250w lights would be bright enough for filming as I do not do filming. I would think you would might need multiple strobes with modelling lights to get light levels high enough - it would also get very hot, they are not suitable for heat sensitive subjects over long periods. However the modelling light might be bright enough to film small objects with - perhaps someone else can say more about video light level requirements?

Modelling lights are bright enough to do long exposures of static subjects, if for any reason you do not want to use the main flash (note that colour temperature can change slightly as you turn the brightness up and down on modelling lights, they are less consistent than flash tubes are).

If you get strobes, get ones with built in cooling fans. Also get ones with built in handles as if you have to keep readjusting them all the time, ones lacking handles are a total pain.

 

[SLR-Roger]

Just an update: I got my Sunpak DF400U back, it is able to wash out the background so long as I only use 2 florescent lights for the object or put the soft boxes back several feet from the object. Thank you all once again!

 

[Phil V]

Just an update: I got my Sunpak DF400U back, it is able to wash out the background so long as I only use 2 florescent lights for the object or put the soft boxes back several feet from the object. Thank you all once again!

You’ve asked for advice and completely ignored everything that’s been said.

However I will try a final time.

DONT MOVE THE LIGHTS TO CHANGE THEIR INTENSITY.

The whole point of controlling lighting is so we can change the nature of highlights and shadows, you know the light looks ‘better’ when they’re closer. As they’re continuous you can make them less bright on the image in 3 ways:

• Moving them further away; not a great idea.
• Using a smaller aperture; your aperture is already too small. Despite being told, F11 is about the smallest you need
• Using a shorter shutter speed, here’s where you have lots of leeway, 2 1/2 seconds is madness, and whilst it’s getting you a ‘result’, you’re talking of using lights with human beings in the future, where 1/30 is unacceptable and 1/60 is pushing your luck.

Put the lights where they look good, and see what ISO you need for 1/60, f8.

 

[SLR-Roger]

"You’ve asked for advice and completely ignored everything that’s been said." Not true at all, other then not spending thousands on a nice set of strobes, what advice have I ignored? The biggest take away for me has been:

• never using a f setting over 11 and I have stayed under f9 most of the time ever sense Faldrax mentioned it!
• Not being so overly concerned about perfection for ebay/craigslist posts. -Riddel/Garrey

"However I will try a final time." I do not recall you trying a first time, this is actually the first post you have sent me, am I mistaken?

Now you have added something new: "see what ISO you need for 1/60, f8." What advantage does having 1/60 at iso 1100 have over 1/5 iso100 when my items are stationary and I have a sturdy tripod? Or are you suggesting that I not use a tripod as to take pictures from different angles faster?

"wash out the background so long as I only use 2 florescent lights for the object or put the soft boxes back several feet from the object." Maybe you just misunderstood me, I still keep my lights within a foot or two! I only said 'or several feet back' to give a feel for how much power I have on my backdrop. It is enough for my needs but not ideal. My original goal has been met, which was to take decent eBay photos (Not product photos, I have been corrected in my terminology) with a washed out background to eliminate the need to GIMP out the background manually each image! I only bumped this thread to let Garry/Riddell/UK/Faldrax know that my goal has been achieved and that I appreciated there advice.

That is all, have a fantastic morning and a tasty cup of coffee if you are so inclined!