Can you see a difference?

GardenersHelper

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Nick
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There is an ongoing discussion starting here in my Journey thread about comparing my FZ330 bridge camera and G5 micro four thirds camera for capturing images of invertebrates. David @davholla has very sensibly suggested that in order to get some like for like images I could capture some images of dead insects. And he suggested, again very sensibly I think, that to avoid unconscious bias on my part I should get someone else to compare the shots, with them not knowing which shot was from which camera. This post is asking you to look at some images and say whether you can see that one or other is better.

I want to find out which camera is better for me in real-life conditions. I therefore captured the images hand-held, using flash, and using the smallest available aperture to get the maximum depth of field. I used autofocus with a small focus box in the middle of the frame. This is my normal capture procedure for invertebrates. I captured images of three scenes. The first was about 18mm wide, which is a bit more than 1:1 for those used to thinking in terms of APS-C cameras, or around 2:1 in full frame terms. The other two scenes were smaller, both about 13mm wide.

I used a Raynox 150 close-up lens with the FZ330 and a more powerful Raynox 250 with the G5. Kitted out like this they both have pretty much the same minimum scene width of about 13mm wide. These are the configurations I typically use with these cameras. In both cases I used the KX800 twin flash.

When working hand-held, especially when there is a breeze like there was today, and with fairly small scenes, there can be a lot of variation from shot to shot, so I captured 10 images with each camera of two scenes, 40 images in total. When I came to look at the images the variation was so large that I captured 10 shots each of a third, static, indoor scene, and even with that one there was a lot of variation. For each scene I tried to place the focus box in the same place from shot to shot, and for the shots from each of the cameras, but as you will see the centre of focus is rather different from shot to shot, even with the static indoor scene. I'm afraid the angle of view is also more different than I would like for the first scene.

In order to keep the exercise realistic for the way I handle my images, I have given all the images the batch processing that I normally use in DXO Optics Pro and Silkypix. I usually do image-specific adjustments in Lightroom, but this time I simply exported from Lightroom as 1300 pixel high JPEGs, which is the size of image I normally produce.

The 60 images are in this album at Flickr. I have removed the Exif data. I know it is difficult with all the variation, but do you get a sense that one of these cameras did better than the other? If so, which one? If you could indicate what you saw that influenced your conclusion that would be very helpful.

I would welcome any help you can provide with this. Thanks.
 
Nick I've just had a look and it's very very difficult to pick a winner. Some looked sharper and the right, others on the left. The pen nib I could hardly tell the difference. At those tolerances, it's so hard to judge if it was your focusing or the actual setup.
 
They look very similar to me saying that I didn't check that carefully. A coin might be better than a pen as a test subject as it has more fine details.
 
They look very similar to me saying that I didn't check that carefully. A coin might be better than a pen as a test subject as it has more fine details.

Thanks David. I was thinking of the wiry filaments of the carpet as much as the pen, but I think they were not fine enough. I've found another couple of dead insects and have done indoors tripod shots this time. I'll put them in a separate thread in a while, but it's got rather complicated unfortunately. As when I've tried this before, getting consistent and strongly like for like results is proving really tricky - even with a tripod and remote release. And one of the cameras is being obstinate about focusing accurately even though I know that it can produce good shots.

I'll add some some coin shots. (I started out with a couple of coin shots but went on to the outdoors shots because I thought they would have more fine detail than coins.)
 
Thanks David. I was thinking of the wiry filaments of the carpet as much as the pen, but I think they were not fine enough. I've found another couple of dead insects and have done indoors tripod shots this time. I'll put them in a separate thread in a while, but it's got rather complicated unfortunately. As when I've tried this before, getting consistent and strongly like for like results is proving really tricky - even with a tripod and remote release. And one of the cameras is being obstinate about focusing accurately even though I know that it can produce good shots.

I'll add some some coin shots. (I started out with a couple of coin shots but went on to the outdoors shots because I thought they would have more fine detail than coins.)
I once saw a Tony Northrup video when I was trying to work out what Telephoto lens to buy*. He used a kite in a bird shape to have similar conditions for each lens.
However
A) He has more time than you (I guess)
B) He gets paid
C) I don't know what you could use to replicate a moving insect to compare that, maybe a model train going round on a train track - although that would need a lot of time and effort - unless you have one to spare.

* I got a 150-600 mm Tamron it is fine although heavy - there are shots on my flickr page if you are interested
https://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/with/35297644874/
 
Well, the colour balance is different between them which is the only obvious thing.

IME it is surface texture differences as opposed to things like hairs and definite details that are the differences with sensor size so it would be the surface of the coin or the pen where I would look.

Sticking my neck out I would say that camera 1 is the Panasonic as it looks less obviously sharpened (larger sensors need less sharpening), the background areas are more OOF and the light transitions are more gradual, another sign of a larger sensor.

But, there is very little difference at all and I wouldn't put my mortgage on my analysis.
 
I once saw a Tony Northrup video when I was trying to work out what Telephoto lens to buy*. He used a kite in a bird shape to have similar conditions for each lens.
However
A) He has more time than you (I guess)

Doesn't seem to matter how much time I spend on it. The variation is huge. Mind you, trying to get consistent results at 2:1 is a bit different from working at normal telephoto I suspect.

B) He gets paid

I don't think I'd be getting any better results if I was being paid. :)

C) I don't know what you could use to replicate a moving insect to compare that, maybe a model train going round on a train track - although that would need a lot of time and effort - unless you have one to spare.

I'm having enough trouble getting comparable results with stationary targets!

* I got a 150-600 mm Tamron it is fine although heavy - there are shots on my flickr page if you are interested
https://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/with/35297644874/

Looks like it is going well, especially as you had three stops or so less light than I typically have for my gulls in flight with the 70D. At ISO 1600 and f/7.1 I imagine you were at the edge of the possible in terms of getting shutter speeds of 1/1000+ for the BIF. Is the 150-600 rather heavy?
 
Well, the colour balance is different between them which is the only obvious thing.

IME it is surface texture differences as opposed to things like hairs and definite details that are the differences with sensor size so it would be the surface of the coin or the pen where I would look.

That is a very interesting perspective Ned. It fits with the conclusion I have come to about flowers etc, for which it seems to me that I get better results with larger (APS-C and MFT) sensors than my small (1/2.3") sensor bridge cameras. I find it difficult to pin down (and difficult to be absolutely sure that I'm not just imagining it, or I'm misreading random variations etc), but I get the sense that there is something going on with subtleties of textures, colours and light, and somehow more "presence". That is something that keeps me interested in the possibility of full frame for botanical subjects, to (possibly) benefit in these areas with an even larger sensor.

Sticking my neck out I would say that camera 1 is the Panasonic as it looks less obviously sharpened (larger sensors need less sharpening), the background areas are more OOF and the light transitions are more gradual, another sign of a larger sensor.

They are both Panasonics, but that would be Camera 1 being the larger sensor G5. I don't want to comment one way or the other yet, but the points about looking for sharpening and (see previous comment) light transitions are very interesting.

As to the background being more OOF, the cameras were set up with minimum aperture, which is f/8 on the FZ330 bridge camera and f/22 on the G5, and these are equivalent apertures for DoF (which doesn't mean the OOF rendering would be the same of course). But I think the OOF rendering might not (I really don't know) be simply a matter of sensor size. I don't know how the rendition of the OOF areas would be affected by the differences in equivalent focal length used (for the more magnified shots that was 350mm for the G5 and 600mm for the FZ330) given the use of achromats, and achromats of different power (+4.8 diopters in the case of the FZ330 and +8 diopters for the G5).

I will be very interested to see your observations on the next lot, which I'll put in a new thread.

But, there is very little difference at all

And that too is very interesting of course, given that one of the cameras has a sensor 9 times the area of the other one, which as well as its very small sensor has a massive zoom range (24X) which can't be good for optical performance (the larger sensor camera's lens has a zoom range of 4X. I think they both have the reputation of being quite sharp in their class).

Thanks for your help with this Ned.
 
Looks like it is going well, especially as you had three stops or so less light than I typically have for my gulls in flight with the 70D. At ISO 1600 and f/7.1 I imagine you were at the edge of the possible in terms of getting shutter speeds of 1/1000+ for the BIF. Is the 150-600 rather heavy?
It is heavy and I have shoulder problems so it can be tricky. By edge do you mean the slowest or fastest levels? In good light I think you can get a lot faster speeds
 
It is heavy and I have shoulder problems so it can be tricky.

Oh. :( Do be careful.

By edge do you mean the slowest or fastest levels? In good light I think you can get a lot faster speeds

On the edge In the sense that the light was so low that you could only get 1/1000 sec, which I think one really needs for BIF, by using an ISO that is probably as high as you would want to go and an aperture which is probably as wide as you you would want to use, and possibly (depending on the lens) almost as large as you could use at full zoom anyway. For example for my gulls in flight I'm typically doing it on a fairly bright day and using f/13 and ISO 800.
 
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