Canon FF mirrorless...

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....Slightly off-topic but I have been surprised by how well my Canon 500mm F/4L II performs regarding bokeh when set at any of the wider range of apertures. By "performing well" I mean that there are usually enough hints of the background habitat evident to satisfy my taste. I always shoot Manual-mode.

Being a wildlife photographer, most of my wildlife togger friends I sometimes meet up with shoot on the 600mm F/4L II but they are all very experienced users, more so than I am < I must ask one in particular who is a pro whose work I greatly admire.



....Cheers, Richard!

Is it just me who goes into sniggering schoolboy humour mode whenever the word "flange" is mentioned? :D

"Moist."
 
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Nobody has mentioned the 24 - 105 f4 lens. If it's as good as the EF version it will be a belter.

Much more versatile than the Nikon equivalent.
And heavier ;)
 
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Hopefully this video hasn't been posted earlier in this long thread - Apologies if it has and I missed it.

I have never seen any of this guy's videos before but I find this one very objective and informative....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvh7J6s_tgM&frags=pl%2Cwn
:)
Just watched this review and he seems to have pointed out something that no one else has thought about and that's the touch screen/slide controls and gloves.

I have a 5D MkIV and the touch screen doesn't work very well with gloves on so if the R is the same then choosing focus points is going to be a real problem, got to have a joystick control.
 
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Just watched this review and he seems to have pointed out something that no one else has thought about and that's the touch screen/slide controls and gloves.

I have a 5D MkIV and the touch screen doesn't work very well with gloves on so if the R is the same then choosing focus points is going to be a real problem, got to have a joystick control.
....I think you'll find and can easily get used to using the rear 'compass' wheel to move focus points around - It might even be easier. Personally I don't get on with the joystick very well and hardly ever used the touch screen when I had a 5D-4. But the joystick on the 1DX-2 looks different so I must try it out! < Thank you TalkPhotography!

I think the new EOS R 'slide' bar relies more on physical pressure than a touch in the same way a screen does. It sounds a very useful feature with its ability to be so extensively programmed.

But the gloves aspect is clearly important.
 
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Nobody has mentioned the 24 - 105 f4 lens. If it's as good as the EF version it will be a belter.
....I mentioned it as possible replacement for my EF 24-70mm F/4L but obviously would need to buy an EOS R body (future version as I want higher fps etc for wildlife) first.

It's a pity that RF lenses can't have an adapter to mount on EF mount bodies < This makes sense if you own both EF and RF mount bodies. Or would such an adapter be possible?
 
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....I mentioned it as possible replacement for my EF 24-70mm F/4L but obviously would need to buy an EOS R body (future version as I want higher fps etc for wildlife) first.

It's a pity that RF lenses can't have an adapter to mount on EF mount bodies < This makes sense if you own both EF and RF mount bodies. Or would such an adapter be possible?

The adaptor would need optical elements, if it is, it will be very expensive.

That's presuming electrically they can make them communicate with backwards compatibility.
 
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Nobody has mentioned the 24 - 105 f4 lens. If it's as good as the EF version it will be a belter.

Much more versatile than the Nikon equivalent.
You would think it would be spankingly good, given the (alleged) optical design advantages of the reduced back-focus distance, making shorter focal lengths less complex but with better performance.

It's a shame then, that the new RF 24-105/4 L is more complex with one more optical element, and according to Canon's MTF sharpness graphs it's a virtual carbon copy of the existing EF 24-105/4 L Mk2. The differences are tiny and insignificant, and far less than you'd get with normal copy to copy variation.

The new RF 28-70/2 L looks pretty impressive though, especially for an f/2 zoom. It's at least as good as the current EF 24-70/2.8 L that is already best in class.

What's heavier? Canon EF 24-105/4 L Mk2 weighs 795g, RF version weighs 700g, and the Nikon 24-120mm f/4 weighs 710g.

....I mentioned it as possible replacement for my EF 24-70mm F/4L but obviously would need to buy an EOS R body (future version as I want higher fps etc for wildlife) first.

It's a pity that RF lenses can't have an adapter to mount on EF mount bodies < This makes sense if you own both EF and RF mount bodies. Or would such an adapter be possible?
Not really. Adapting EF lenses to R bodies is easy - just add an extension tube 24mm long. Can't do that with RF lenses to DSLRs and it would require additional optical elements, increasing cost while wrecking optical performance.
 
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You would think it would be spankingly good, given the (alleged) optical design advantages of the reduced back-focus distance, making shorter focal lengths less complex but with better performance.

It's a shame then, that the new RF 24-105/4 L is more complex with one more optical element, and according to Canon's MTF sharpness graphs it's a virtual carbon copy of the existing EF 24-105/4 L Mk2. The differences are tiny and insignificant, and far less than you'd get with normal copy to copy variation.

The new RF 28-70/2 L looks pretty impressive though, especially for an f/2 zoom. It's at least as good as the current EF 24-70/2.8 L that is already best in class.



What's heavier? Canon EF 24-105/4 L Mk2 weighs 795g, RF version weighs 700g, and the Nikon 24-120mm f/4 weighs 710g.



Not really. Adapting EF lenses to R bodies is easy - just add an extension tube 24mm long. Can't do that with RF lenses to DSLRs and it would require additional optical elements, increasing cost while wrecking optical performance.
I believe that jerry was comparing the new EOS R 24-105mm f4 to Nikon's Zed 'equivalent' which is a 24-70mm stating that the 24-105mm is more versatile. No argument there, but of course the sacrifice is weight (700g vs 500g). Of course you could use the Z7 in DX mode giving you 105mm effective reach and still 19MP ;)
 
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....I mentioned it as possible replacement for my EF 24-70mm F/4L but obviously would need to buy an EOS R body (future version as I want higher fps etc for wildlife) first.

It's a pity that RF lenses can't have an adapter to mount on EF mount bodies < This makes sense if you own both EF and RF mount bodies. Or would such an adapter be possible?

Without having seen any reviews of the "R" 24 -105 its impossible to know how it compares with the EF version, but it is a really versatile focal length range.

The adaptor would (of course) add to the weight of the lens so the EF version would probably be adequate for an EF body.
 
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I think the new EOS R 'slide' bar relies more on physical pressure than a touch in the same way a screen does. It sounds a very useful feature with its ability to be so extensively programmed.

But the gloves aspect is clearly important.
From what I have seen so far the slider uses touch technology but are also buttons under the arrows at each end of the slider. It would have been easy enough test if gloves were a problem, just put some material over a finger and try. :rolleyes:
 
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwUHBolbCbU


Well, that's some what surprising. Pushing 5 stops is extreme, but it's clear that whilst it's the same sensor, the R is not able to produce the same results as the 5D4.

Today I took delivery of a 5D4, upgrading from the 5D3. The R is an interesting camera and I'm glad Canon have finally started to make a real start on mirrorless. However, it's not compelling enough to tear me away from DSLR's, as a Canon shooter. No weather proofing, slower burst, no dual memory being the main points. I am very interested to see what canon does with the R MKii though.
 
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwUHBolbCbU


Well, that's some what surprising. Pushing 5 stops is extreme, but it's clear that whilst it's the same sensor, the R is not able to produce the same results as the 5D4.

Today I took delivery of a 5D4, upgrading from the 5D3. The R is an interesting camera and I'm glad Canon have finally started to make a real start on mirrorless. However, it's not compelling enough to tear me away from DSLR's, as a Canon shooter. No weather proofing, slower burst, no dual memory being the main points. I am very interested to see what canon does with the R MKii though.
No point selling my 5D4 for a RF then! (wasn't going to anyway)
 
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The R is an interesting camera and I'm glad Canon have finally started to make a real start on mirrorless. However, it's not compelling enough to tear me away from DSLR's, as a Canon shooter. No weather proofing, slower burst, no dual memory being the main points. I am very interested to see what canon does with the R MKii though.
....Canon started on mirrorless a while ago with their EOS M range of compact cameras.

We don't know yet of course but I think that Canon will release additional R bodies rather than Mk versions of this first release body. These various additional bodies are almost certainly going to be higher spec with better weather proofing, higher burst rates and probably even 2 card slots. In other words an equivalent range to the 5D, 6D, 7D, 1DX etc D-SLR range but mirrorless. The current R body is just entry level.
 
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....Canon started on mirrorless a while ago with their EOS M range of compact cameras.

We don't know yet of course but I think that Canon will release additional R bodies rather than Mk versions of this first release body. These various additional bodies are almost certainly going to be higher spec with better weather proofing, higher burst rates and probably even 2 card slots. In other words an equivalent range to the 5D, 6D, 7D, 1DX etc D-SLR range but mirrorless. The current R body is just entry level.
"I'm glad Canon have finally started to make a real start on mirrorless" - is what I was getting at.

The EOS M range was not really even a half hearted effort. The R seems like it has a little bit more heart about it, a vision, and perhaps a future. For now though; I'll just enjoy the flapping of that mirror. ;)
 
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....Canon started on mirrorless a while ago with their EOS M range of compact cameras.

We don't know yet of course but I think that Canon will release additional R bodies rather than Mk versions of this first release body. These various additional bodies are almost certainly going to be higher spec with better weather proofing, higher burst rates and probably even 2 card slots. In other words an equivalent range to the 5D, 6D, 7D, 1DX etc D-SLR range but mirrorless. The current R body is just entry level.
Not sure about something equivalent to a 7D range, it being a cropped sensor. Maybe there will be a high performance M series camera, they would have to do a major body redesign for that model to attract 7D users, but I think the emphasis will be on the R series, especially if they are charging that much for RF lenses. ;) Not giving the camera a number designation seems a bit odd too. What would they call the next one! :thinking:

Whatever mirrorless cameras Canon, or Nikon, release in the future they have to be better than what they have just released imho. How quickly that will happen is questionable. If Canon, and Nikon, have the capability to get close to something like the Sony a9, and that is a big if, I would expect that in late 2019 or 2020 before the Olympics. Before the Olympics has normally been the time when Canon and Nikon have released their top of the range speed machines, so a 1DXIII and D6 could be out in early 2020 too. Do they have the capacity to release both a fast mirrorless and DSLR around the same time. :thinking: And by then Sony will have the a9II too. ;)

Nikon released a standard megapixel camera (24Mp) and a high resolution camera (47Mp) at the same time mirroring ;) their D750 and the D850 DSLR's, and Sony's a7III and a7RIII. Canon have had the middle megapixel ground with the 5D's (I-IV), and the 6D's slightly lower resolution, but closer in pixels to each other. The first EOS R seems to have 6DII features with a 5DIV sensor. Will they go to 50Mp with another FF mirrorless to match the 5DS and 5DR! And with a warmed over sensor from 2015! :thinking: They would have to offer a lot more in the rest of the camera than to just try and get away with more pixels.Then again, maybe not if the EOS R sells.

Ironically, if they had the released 30Mp and 50Mp EOS R's at the same time they may have got away with small differences like Nikon with the Z's, but to bring a higher res camera later, if they do that, it would have to move further forward in a lot of areas imho and get closer to the third generation Sony's, which is what they should have already done. :rolleyes:

It will be interesting to see what they do next. And what they will call it/them. ;) :LOL:
 
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The EOS M range was not really even a half hearted effort.
I suppose all the millions of owners must be wrong ;)

I’d guess you’ve never handled an M5, 6 or 50?
The best selling APSC mirrorless cameras worldwide?
I’ll bet Canon would really appreciate your help making them at least ‘half hearted’.:LOL:
 
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I suppose all the millions of owners must be wrong ;)

I’d guess you’ve never handled an M5, 6 or 50?
The best selling APSC mirrorless cameras worldwide?
I’ll bet Canon would really appreciate your help making them at least ‘half hearted’.:LOL:
Pop music sells the most too. I’ve got a feeling Kylie isn’t in your stereo ;)
 
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I suppose all the millions of owners must be wrong ;)

I’d guess you’ve never handled an M5, 6 or 50?
The best selling APSC mirrorless cameras worldwide?
I’ll bet Canon would really appreciate your help making them at least ‘half hearted’.:LOL:
I suppose as enthusiasts we're not really all that interest in what sells well to the arguably less enthusiast masses, we're interested more in what interests us and that's more likely to be related to image quality, performance and features.

I suppose it's the same in any area of interest, £10 watches from the supermarket will sell more than top end hand made watches, made to measure suits wont sell as well as off the peg, more Vauxhall Corsas will sell than Lotus Elise's etc... If your measure of what's best is to look at sales then I suppose the smartphone wins every time and Sony and Canikon are wasting their time.

So, I suppose the half hearted comment about the M series is more related to its arguably mediocre spec and performance in how we enthusiasts see things together with the lack of native lenses rather than calling it a winner because they've sold a lot to people who possibly view them as almost white goods with a name they trust on the box.
 
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"I'm glad Canon have finally started to make a real start on mirrorless" - is what I was getting at.

The EOS M range was not really even a half hearted effort. The R seems like it has a little bit more heart about it, a vision, and perhaps a future. For now though; I'll just enjoy the flapping of that mirror. ;)
....As @Phil V suggests, it doesn't sound as if you have ever shot on a M5 or others from the M range. I can only speak from owning a M5 and it's really a miniature 7D-2 in many ways - Obviously without certain features but with its own features to commend it. But the reality is that the M5 demonstrates a whole hearted effort, and a successful one, by Canon to apply their own mirrorless technology.

And also, something which many people seem to forget : The M5 (and the others?) is a full-blooded EOS body fitting neatly into the bigger system when a EF lens adapter is mounted.

I have a love-hate relationship with my M5 but totally respect what it has the potential to offer - With me it's the small size (a big plus to most other photographers) which means that one day I will swop it for a future EOS R mirrorless body. Meanwhile I can't see myself ceasing to love my 1DX-2 as well!
 
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I suppose all the millions of owners must be wrong ;)

I’d guess you’ve never handled an M5, 6 or 50?
The best selling APSC mirrorless cameras worldwide?
I’ll bet Canon would really appreciate your help making them at least ‘half hearted’.:LOL:
Yes, but those millions could have been hard core Canon users who wouldn't consider any other mirrorless offerings (even if they were better), the Canon brand is strong and the name alone would have attracted sales numbers...... just because something sells in vast numbers doesn't mean its the better option.
I think Canon's strategy itself proves that it was a half hearted effort, that's why the system hasn't really gone anywhere in terms of innovation and lens releases.
Canon have opted to start fresh with the EOS R and that itself says a lot about their DSLR / EOS M system.
 
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Perhaps Rixy meant half-hearted because of the stingy lens line up for the M series? There is a point to that. Otherwise I can't see much else wrong with them, I'd be happy enough with something like an M50 and some nice lenses. I see them as mini 80D, they share the same sensor, they even have more up to date processors. What Canon did get right was at least offering an adapter that makes their existing lenses work as good as if they were native on the M bodies.
 
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Perhaps Rixy meant half-hearted because of the stingy lens line up for the M series? There is a point to that. Otherwise I can't see much else wrong with them, I'd be happy enough with something like an M50 and some nice lenses. I see them as mini 80D, they share the same sensor, they even have more up to date processors. What Canon did get right was at least offering an adapter that makes their existing lenses work as good as if they were native on the M bodies.
I agree regarding their lens line-up..... again like the EOS R, it seems they were designed to keep existing DSLR customers happy rather than attract new customers.
In isolation, both the M and R bodies are ok...... :)
 
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Yes, but those millions could have been hard core Canon users who wouldn't consider any other mirrorless offerings (even if they were better), the Canon brand is strong and the name alone would have attracted sales numbers...... just because something sells in vast numbers doesn't mean its the better option.
....Having 'invested' (not a financial investment yielding financial gains!) in the EOS system and enjoying shooting with it very much, I am one of those people who isn't going to jump ship to another brand just because it might be 'better' - The EOS system is plenty good enough for me! And anyway, it never stops being developed.

I think Canon's strategy itself proves that it was a half hearted effort, that's why the system hasn't really gone anywhere in terms of innovation and lens releases.

Canon have opted to start fresh with the EOS R and that itself says a lot about their DSLR / EOS M system.
....Interviews I have read and watched which are with Canon officials, explain and inform how the M5 (that's been the one I researched before buying) is definitely not a "half-hearted effort" - It may not satisfy your requirements but that's a different matter. Lens releases are always slow and every new lens-interchangeable camera suffers if there isn't already an extensive range of lenses < Sony included.

Just as in the same way that Canon have fitted a D-SLR Dual Pixel sensor in the M5, technology developed for the M series bodies can be applied to the EOS R range. All these technical developments within the Canon design teams are doubtless shared - I am convinced that Canon know what they are doing and have long term plans and so do the other major brands.
 
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I agree regarding their lens line-up..... again like the EOS R, it seems they were designed to keep existing DSLR customers happy rather than attract new customers.
In isolation, both the M and R bodies are ok...... :)
....Canon have actually made the statement publicly that the EOS R is intentionally designed to keep existing D-SLR customers happy - Surely with such an existing range of EF lenses it would be very stupid not to.

Think of Canon's mirrorless R body as just another option amongst their existing bodies which happen to be D-SLR. Currently until Canon decide otherwise, I think that ALL of them will be further developed and offered as different versions.

I find it exciting, even at 70yo, to think that camera tools will be offered which potentially might enable my photography to realise its ambitions and be even more enjoyable. Simply giving more info in the viewfinder and easier controls without needing to look away from the viewfinder is a major step forward in my opinion.
 
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I was quite amazed to see how much sharper the R was in comparison to the Sony III in the Northrup video when using adapted lenses. Will be interested to see how it holds up when others test it.
I wonder what the difference would be between the following...

Sony A7 III + 24-70mm f2.8 G Master
Canon R + 28-70mm f2.8 RF L

Would it be worth the price difference? :)
 
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To be fair, the Canon is perfectly fine for pretty much everybody, just like a Ford Focus ST but the RS is just faster. (Without going too much into car analogy, just within Focuses)
....Just to mention another 'C' word : Cosworth!! :D
 
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I was quite amazed to see how much sharper the R was in comparison to the Sony III in the Northrup video when using adapted lenses. Will be interested to see how it holds up when others test it.
....I was very surprised by that too.

I was also surprised that Tony Northrup found the Canon generally sharper than the Sony but that the Canon introduced coloured striping that didn't exist in reality.

Whether you like them or not, the Northrups try hard to be very objective and unbiassed and so their future review of the EOS R will be interesting.
 
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I was quite amazed to see how much sharper the R was in comparison to the Sony III in the Northrup video when using adapted lenses. Will be interested to see how it holds up when others test it.
....I was very surprised by that too.

I was also surprised that Tony Northrup found the Canon generally sharper than the Sony but that the Canon introduced coloured striping that didn't exist in reality.

Whether you like them or not, the Northrups try hard to be very objective and unbiassed and so their future review of the EOS R will be interesting.
But wasn't this explained by the Canons higher mp count?

When compared to the lower mp A7III it's sharper and compared to the higher mp count A7RIII it isn't as sharp. When combined with the banding in pushed images aren't these the results we'd expect from what is in the R an older tech Canon sensor but with a higher mp count than the new tech Sony sensors in the A7III (lower mp) and A7RIII (higher mp.)
 
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