canon image quality

odd jim said:
Especially over 400 ISO. That renders the Merrill out if the equation for me.
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Actually, as far as the technology goes, it's rendered a niche because of the low light performance. If the sensor design is limiting the number of photons that hit the 2nd and 3rd layer sensors, it'll never be able to compete at high ISO's with a Bayer sensor, thus leaving the 'improved image quality' as marketing hype. Because most of my shooting is at or above 800 ISO, I'd have been sold a camera for 'better IQ' which actually has worse IQ in my hands.
 
Exactly. It's only limited and far from perfect. It would be useless for me.
 
Wow! That's truly horrible.

What's with his hair and beard.

And those moire patterns.

That can't be an example to show how good the camera is - surely?
 
I
 
The Merrill range for IQ is very hard to beat especially for the price. This video shows it taking on the D800 for IQ in print:

 
Laudrup said:
The Merrill range for IQ is very hard to beat especially for the price. This video shows it taking on the D800 for IQ in print:

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At what ISO? It seems only to be able to produce good IQ at base level, it's very limited.

Also that video is a sales video, do they won't exactly point out its shortfalls :)
 
odd jim said:
At what ISO? It seems only to be able to produce good IQ at base level, it's very limited.

Also that video is a sales video, do they won't exactly point out its shortfalls :)
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You could see that the Merrill was holding its own against the D800 there in print at quite large sizes. For a £300 camera that is pretty remarkable. Landscape shooters or portrait or macro then high ISO isn't much use anyway. The Merrill cannot be faulted in IQ and produces so,e of the best black and white converted photos I've seen.
 
I'm sure it's good at base ISO. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great little camera for £300, but it only dropped to that after it was clear people wouldn't pay full price for it, which was £800 to £1k dependant on where you looked.

That's a lot to pay for a camera that only really produces the advertised goods at very low ISO's.

IQ is not just what it produces at base ISO, it's also how it performs when the going gets tough.

That's why I could never have one as a walkabout / travel camera as a lot of my stuff is shot in low light, where it would produce pretty horrid IQ.
 
Laudrup said:
You could see that the Merrill was holding its own against the D800 there in print at quite large sizes. For a £300 camera that is pretty remarkable. ***Landscape shooters or portrait or macro then high ISO isn't much use anyway***. The Merrill cannot be faulted in IQ and produces so,e of the best black and white converted photos I've seen.
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Also, I take it you haven't shot much in the way of macro?? High ISO's are always required with macro photography more than anything!
 
Honestly, how many people appreciate what needs to happen in combination for a fair and accurate comparison of any aspect of image quality? The sensor, the light, the use of that light, the kit used to alter that light, humidity? the tripod, the lens, the lens/camera combo, the eyeball viewing the result???

So many factors involved and very little point in making comparisons of what is after all an art form cursed with technical tools that keep evolving.
The Mona Lisa would probably look completely different if Leo had painted her with a modern synthetic bristle brush and paints.

True natural human skill and art are a far cry from the absolutes you can achieve with the modern technically and absolutely comparable, that is possible with digital kit.
You will never agree on whats best when there are so many evolving techniques and equipment.

There is no 'best' kit, just great results from it.
 
odd jim said:
I'm sure it's good at base ISO. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great little camera for £300, but it only dropped to that after it was clear people wouldn't pay full price for it, which was £800 to £1k dependant on where you looked.

That's a lot to pay for a camera that only really produces the advertised goods at very low ISO's.

IQ is not just what it produces at base ISO, it's also how it performs when the going gets tough.

That's why I could never have one as a walkabout / travel camera as a lot of my stuff is shot in low light, where it would produce pretty horrid IQ.
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It dropped in price because the Sigma dp Quattro is coming out soon. The IQ at low ISO is superb and incredible for the money. That video shows it competing with a D800 very well so for the money and the right circumstances it is excellent value.
 
odd jim said:
Also, I take it you haven't shot much in the way of macro?? High ISO's are always required with macro photography more than anything!
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There is the DP3M with a 50mm f2.8 MACRO lens that seems to cope well. Look at the thousands of flickr examples.
 
odd jim said:
At what ISO? It seems only to be able to produce good IQ at base level, it's very limited.
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That limitation might not be a limitation for some people though. As primarily a film user, I tend to use ISO 100 film most of the time and with digital, I tend to keep it at 100 and just occasionally go up to 400.

I have never been interested in photographing black cats in coal cellars at night so high ISOs have never interested me. If I want more exposure, I just open the shutter a bit longer - preferably with the camera on a tripod.

I think with a bit more development, the Foveon sensor could be great. The idea of having photosites in the same place for all three primary colours is a good idea and is how colour film works.


Steve.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
Challenge accepted.

Post up a full res image from your Merrill please.... choose the one you feel best represents this quality you discuss. Preferably an un-retouched RAW file.
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As Steve T says above, nothing but a direct A-vs-B side by side comparison will prove very much, and that in only one low ISO situation.

We know Foveons can be very sharp, and we know Bayer sensors can also be very sharp. The other upsides and downsides are also not really in dispute, so what is there to prove?

If the Foveon wins, it's not going to change many people's minds, and if the Nikon wins, it'll be because it's full-frame. Situation normal.
 
Steve Smith said:
That limitation might not be a limitation for some people though. As primarily a film user, I tend to use ISO 100 film most of the time and with digital, I tend to keep it at 100 and just occasionally go up to 400.

I have never been interested in photographing black cats in coal cellars at night so high ISOs have never interested me. If I want more exposure, I just open the shutter a bit longer - preferably with the camera on a tripod.

I think with a bit more development, the Foveon sensor could be great. The idea of having photosites in the same place for all three primary colours is a good idea and is how colour film works.


Steve.
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It's not about shooting black cats in coal cellars though is it? For example, on holiday, a shot of the GF in the lamplight, friends at the bar, street lit scenes, and I for one don't want to be lugging a tripod around when I'm on holiday. That's why it falls short for me, as I'd like it as a travel companion, something it's not capable of based on my requirements.

It's a niche thing at the moment, but I'm sure as with anything, development will improve it. But with Bayer sensors as good as they are, will they really spend the money on the Foveon to make it as capable? I'm not sure.
 
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Steve Smith said:
That limitation might not be a limitation for some people though. As primarily a film user, I tend to use ISO 100 film most of the time and with digital, I tend to keep it at 100 and just occasionally go up to 400.

I have never been interested in photographing black cats in coal cellars at night so high ISOs have never interested me. If I want more exposure, I just open the shutter a bit longer - preferably with the camera on a tripod.

I think with a bit more development, the Foveon sensor could be great. The idea of having photosites in the same place for all three primary colours is a good idea and is how colour film works.


Steve.
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The new quattro is developing on the Merrill:

http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/camera/dp-feature/
 
Interesting, but I couldn't live with that flare!

The saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind.
 
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HoppyUK said:
As Steve T says above, nothing but a direct A-vs-B side by side comparison will prove very much, and that in only one low ISO situation.

We know Foveons can be very sharp, and we know Bayer sensors can also be very sharp. The other upsides and downsides are also not really in dispute, so what is there to prove?

If the Foveon wins, it's not going to change many people's minds, and if the Nikon wins, it'll be because it's full-frame. Situation normal.
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The OP said the Faveon sensor in his Merrill is awesome, and he knows this because he has a D800E to compare it too.


Challenge accepted. Post your RAW.
 
pingu666 said:
http://www.thephoblographer.com/wp-...-extras-13-of-20ISO-1001-160-sec-at-f-2.8.jpg
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That's not particularity impressive. Maybe post up a RAW instead of a JPEG from a website. Although colour fringing and moiré in the beard is probably a product of the sensor and not the JPEG compression.

I'm not sure why you think that's impressive though.


pingu666 said:
that its very sharp ;), it is ugly on him tho

bayer needs sharpening processing to be sharp, foveon doesnt
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It's not that sharp.


I think you're just convincing yourself of something doesn't exist. It's a nice image from a compact, and I'd be more than happy with a compact that delivers quality like that, but all this talk of it being superior to other sensors, and full frame DSLRs etc.... sorry, just not seeing it.
 
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pingu666 said:
that its very sharp ;), it is ugly on him tho

bayer needs sharpening processing to be sharp, foveon doesnt
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There's nothing there an entry level DSLR and a half decent lens couldn't achieve?
 
Comparisons here and here

Foveon has been out a while now in Sigma cameras. When I first bought my 300D there was the option to buy the sigma dp1 i think. Whilst the idea is pretty good and should allow full colour capture the reality is it is less than perfect and has more issues than Bayer sensors. This is why probably one of the reasons the likes of Nikon/Canon/Sony haven't tried to make their own version
 
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you don't get the same sharpness from a normal dslr bayer sensor, foveon is like hard edged lego blocks, its the scene condensed into pixels neatly. Bayer throws away a bunch of data, then smears things slightly, its not the same trueness
 
as ive said I want total image quality ..I appreciate people with canon 6d and 5d mk 3 etc will love the images but they cant get near to the foveon sensor at iso 100...im not interested in high iso images as I mainly use a tripod...I have a feeling canon may have something big up there sleeve ....http://www.canonwatch.com/whatever-canon-going-announce-august-will-ship-october/ if they can get the image quality and dynamic range to a standard close to foveon I will go back to canon purely for the lens selection...but I will never sell my dp Merrill cameras as they have given me so much joy over the last year ..here is an image of my friends garden with dp2 and also a nex 6 with metabones adapter and canon 17 40mm..yes I know the test isn't the best and I know people will say the nex isn't the best example but it will give people an idea of the resolving power of the merrills..wear the merrills exel is gras and leaves and timy details ..I don't like saying other cameras are bad because they have there own merits like usability higher iso etc..but for detail and I mean fine detail nothing touches the merrills
 
tray271 said:
as ive said I want total image quality ..I appreciate people with canon 6d and 5d mk 3 etc will love the images but they cant get near to the foveon sensor at iso 100...im not interested in high iso images as I mainly use a tripod...I have a feeling canon may have something big up there sleeve ....http://www.canonwatch.com/whatever-canon-going-announce-august-will-ship-october/ if they can get the image quality and dynamic range to a standard close to foveon I will go back to canon purely for the lens selection...but I will never sell my dp Merrill cameras as they have given me so much joy over the last year ..here is an image of my friends garden with dp2 and also a nex 6 with metabones adapter and canon 17 40mm..yes I know the test isn't the best and I know people will say the nex isn't the best example but it will give people an idea of the resolving power of the merrills..wear the merrills exel is gras and leaves and timy details ..I don't like saying other cameras are bad because they have there own merits like usability higher iso etc..but for detail and I mean fine detail nothing touches the merrills
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Really can't see much from those images, they're pretty low res!
 
I will setup a fliker account at some point to day and post images from all 3 Merrill cameras..at least will give people an idea...ive got some I did with a 6d and zeiss 50mm ,will see what I can find
 
here are the images to download and compare ...you will see that the Merrill is far sharper .I could upload loads of pictures but I cant see the point ..im just trying to point out that it would be nice if canon bring something that has superb detail ..bayer sensors are old now and they cant do fine detail like tree leaves and grass..what I see with my eyes is what the Merrill produces...I think after reading things about canons next camera it s goin to be a revolution rather that a small upgrade...fingers crossed

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124891402@N06/
 
tray271 said:
here are the images to download and compare ...you will see that the Merrill is far sharper .I could upload loads of pictures but I cant see the point ..im just trying to point out that it would be nice if canon bring something that has superb detail ..bayer sensors are old now and they cant do fine detail like tree leaves and grass..what I see with my eyes is what the Merrill produces...I think after reading things about canons next camera it s goin to be a revolution rather that a small upgrade...fingers crossed

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124891402@N06/
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The Sigma picture certainly has better contrast and a bit more detail. But then you're comparing a nice prime to a reasonable zoom on an adapter...
 
manualfocus-g said:
The Sigma picture certainly has better contrast and a bit more detail. But then you're comparing a nice prime to a reasonable zoom on an adapter...
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More importantly, it's a comparison of two images on a very poor medium - a computer monitor. The only valid test would be to have them both printed at the best quality possible at a decent size.

This is much like the ridiculous film vs. digital comparisons people used to make with uploaded scans and camera files which were really digital vs. scanner comparisons with the scanner being the weak link.

I do agree that the Sigma picture looks better on Flickr but any number of things could make it appear that way. Even just a change in contrast.


Steve.
 
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tray271 said:
here are the images to download and compare ...you will see that the Merrill is far sharper .I could upload loads of pictures but I cant see the point ..im just trying to point out that it would be nice if canon bring something that has superb detail ..bayer sensors are old now and they cant do fine detail like tree leaves and grass..what I see with my eyes is what the Merrill produces...I think after reading things about canons next camera it s goin to be a revolution rather that a small upgrade...fingers crossed

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124891402@N06/
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Not hard to beat a NEX 6 though is it. Earlier on in the thread, you were saying that the Merrill kicks the asses of high end DSLRs :)

Anyhoo... yeah, a foveon type sensor in a DSLR maybe a good thing, but in practical terms.. in the actual images, I'm wondering how much of an advantage it is. I'd rather they spend R&D money on more useful features like seriously low noise/high ISO.
 
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tray271 said:
here are the images to download and compare ...you will see that the Merrill is far sharper .I could upload loads of pictures but I cant see the point ..im just trying to point out that it would be nice if canon bring something that has superb detail ..bayer sensors are old now and they cant do fine detail like tree leaves and grass..what I see with my eyes is what the Merrill produces...I think after reading things about canons next camera it s goin to be a revolution rather that a small upgrade...fingers crossed

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124891402@N06/
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The new Sigma DP2 Quattro is due out soon boasting a 30% resolution gain over the Merrills so might be worth keeping your powder dry and buying one of those.
 
ive done tests with canon 6d ,nikon d800e ,sony a7r ..and nearlt all the same outcome ..canon or should i say bayor sensor for grass detail is dreadful ..anyway im just waiting for the canon announcment interesting times ahead
 
tray271 said:
ive done tests with canon 6d ,nikon d800e ,sony a7r ..and nearlt all the same outcome ..canon or should i say bayor sensor for grass detail is dreadful ..anyway im just waiting for the canon announcment interesting times ahead
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I can only think it is user error if you are getting dreadful results from a D800E in terms of detail.
 
tray271 said:
ive done tests with canon 6d ,nikon d800e ,sony a7r ..and nearlt all the same outcome ..canon or should i say bayor sensor for grass detail is dreadful ..anyway im just waiting for the canon announcment interesting times ahead
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Lol, I've never had an issue with the way grass looks, this is becoming ridiculous!
 
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