Capturing good audio help!

T

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Tony
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Hi, I have a job coming up where I need to get good audio with the video. I have just bought a rode NTG4+ and have a XLR to 3.5mm adapter going into my EOS R.

The levels seem low, turning to up so they just touch the yellow when peaking and there is a lot of hiss. I am guessing the camera amp is being pushed too far! The hiss can be eliminated in post, but the levels are still low, to the point I have the mac on full volume and it sounds just about right!

I do have a cheap lad mic that seems to do a much better job (i.e. I can lower the recording levels and get good, loud sound, with a bit of hiss that can be dealt with), but on this job I won't be able to use it for some shots.

I have been doing some research and think I need a pre amp. so the input is higher and then I can turn the camera levels down. Was looking at the Saramonic SmartRig+ but would appreciate any advise as to:

  1. if I need a preamp
  2. am I doing something else wrong
  3. if I do need a preamp, is the smartrig+ the right one

Appreciate any help or advise anyone can give.

T
 
garryknight said:
Condenser mics need phantom power and if your camera doesn't supply that you'll need an interface. I don't know anything about the Smartrig, but here's an article that might be helpful:
https://www.diyphotography.net/hack-get-phantom-powered-microphone-camera/

A Google search for "EOS R phantom power" should turn up more info.
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The NTG4+ has an onboard lithium battery and does not need phantom power, it just seems to have a low level of sound into the camera.

Turning the levels up in camera then makes a lot of high hiss. I wondered if a preamp will help with this, or cause its own noise making it worse.

T
 
Tony ha I found your other thread:).................. read the post with the link in where your alert is, I think I've found a solution for maybe you and Neil. But you would need to do a bit more research as I can't verify any of this. i've no experience of camera/ sound interface it's slightly different to recording a band in a studio.

Tony i'm as sure as I can be that a mic pre is your answer, Every stage in the signal chain has to be set towards an optimal level ( it's called unity gain if memory serves?) ,to keep the noise floor down.If one is drastically boosting then in comes the noise, and sure just like images we can mess with it in the digital domain and reduce. But as with in camera the more you get right the less work later. Forgive me not being 100% first steps being taken in video also trying to understand and use constant lighting for the first time ,as my videos are nocturnal so my head is spinniing. I simply haven't even mused sound yet

There is one place in the signal path where gain is boosted significantly and that is the pre. Hence pre amps can be incredibly expensive as there is a real need for quality, A pre amp is probably the biggest single influence on sound quality, sure mics differ from condensors to ribbons to dymanics all come in forms needing phantom, although ribbons and dymanics usually don't need phantom. Phantom is usually the domain of large and small condensors So just to re -inforce and answer your last line above A good mic pre amp is designed to boost a signal without boosting noise,that is it's job

Mics sort of flavour the sound. A good pre makes the sound,does that make sense?? Providing the mic is ok the sound quality you need will logically come from the pre just like music

hope that helps a bit mate ,as before wish I could be spot on for you ,but one can't without experience and simply I don't have that in this particular field,
all the luck with it

stu
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Tony ha I found your other thread:).................. read the post with the link in where your alert is, I think I've found a solution for maybe you and Neil. But you would need to do a bit more research as I can't verify any of this. i've no experience of camera/ sound interface it's slightly different to recording a band in a studio.

Tony i'm as sure as I can be that a mic pre is your answer, Every stage in the signal chain has to be set towards an optimal level ( it's called unity gain if memory serves?) ,to keep the noise floor down.If one is drastically boosting then in comes the noise, and sure just like images we can mess with it in the digital domain and reduce. But as with in camera the more you get right the less work later. Forgive me not being 100% first steps being taken in video also trying to understand and use constant lighting for the first time ,as my videos are nocturnal so my head is spinniing. I simply haven't even mused sound yet

There is one place in the signal path where gain is boosted significantly and that is the pre. Hence pre amps can be incredibly expensive as there is a real need for quality, A pre amp is probably the biggest single influence on sound quality, sure mics differ from condensors to ribbons to dymanics all come in forms needing phantom, although ribbons and dymanics usually don't need phantom. Phantom is usually the domain of large and small condensors So just to re -inforce and answer your last line above A good mic pre amp is designed to boost a signal without boosting noise,that is it's job

Mics sort of flavour the sound. A good pre makes the sound,does that make sense?? Providing the mic is ok the sound quality you need will logically come from the pre just like music

hope that helps a bit mate ,as before wish I could be spot on for you ,but one can't without experience and simply I don't have that in this particular field,
all the luck with it

stu
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Thank you, I think you are confirming what I have found. I just didn't want to blow money on a pre amp and then find it makes things worse!

T
 
Tony as above some caviats ,with gaps in my knowledge base, Before spending as I mentioned to Neil maybe speak to rode, I'd hit their tech support. they might have workarounds they are making this product (mic) so will be aware of limitations for video usage and aware of differing out put levels. Mate in the past i've done this not specifically with rode but other makers, i've always found talking to a guy whom knows how to strip down these tools and rebuild gives me sound ( sorry ) advice to move forwards from.

Tony one last thing while recording sound in the digital domain you MUST NOT let the recording overload,base stuff buddy ,but same as with a camera blow out the hi lights and the file looks horriblel. In the anolgue domain distortion can be a tool to be used creatively, but in the digi world an overload is just white noise horrible to listen to. For You to achieve best quality of recording the levels will be a good way up the scale right through the signal path but don't let it clip. . A silly little thing you probably know tony ,but best said in front of the job rather than learning after.

Don't spend on what I can give you mate speak to someone with more specific knowledge. I honestly thought there would be many more replies as this seems something many must have problems with ?
 
Could you give a bit more detail about what you are trying to do.
 
ah5168 said:
Could you give a bit more detail about what you are trying to do.
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At the moment I have only done some tests at home. But I have a job coming up where I need to capture sound and bought a rode ntg4+. I went for this mic as it has an onboard battery so does not need phantom power. I can't use the lav for all of this job as I need to get room and action sounds.

I have put a XLR to 3.5mm adapter on it and plugged it into my canon eos r.

The sound being captured is very quiet, if I adjust the levels so there is no hiss when playing back I have to have the computer on full volume just to hear it.

If I up the levels so it peaks at the yellow, there is a lot of hiss. When cleaning this up in post it takes something away from the sound.

As a comparison, I have a cheap lav mic and the onboard camera mic and these seem to record at a much higher volume, so the in camera levels can be lower and very little hiss.

I have tried this on two cameras now, but don't have anything with xlr input so have only used the 1 adapter. Not sure how much noise this could generate.

My thoughts so far are to use a preamp to up the levels from the mic, so I can lower the levels in camera, louder recording with lower hiss.

I am going to send so samples into rode today as I have asked their advise and they want to hear the issue.

In an ideal world I would like to just plug in a mic and get great sound, but it seems it needs a bit of effort to get 'great' sound!!

T
 
Tony could you briefly post what rode come back with please, I'd love to know how you eventually solve this problem

many thanks
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Tony could you briefly post what rode come back with please, I'd love to know how you eventually solve this problem

many thanks
Click to expand...

Hi Stuart,

Rode said it was the adapter creating noise, which I am now struggling to believe!

Ended up buying a tascam DR-60D mkII and running the mike straight into there with an xlr cable. Sound is good, but have to have the gain set to high to get decent levels.

Running the mic through the Tascam on channel 3/4 with the same adapter yields OK results!

My conclusions are:
  • The levels are very low coming out from the mic, not sure if this is inherent with this model or if I have a duff model.
  • I am 100% sure I cannot run this directly through the camera which was my intention and why I paid the extra for a powered mic.
  • The adapter is ok and has no issues.
Overall, disappointed with the rode thinking it would be a market leader and tick all the boxes, but ended up having to pay the same again on cables and preamps/recorders just to get satisfactory sound, which makes my whole job as a one man crew a lot more tricky.

I have asked Rode if there is normally much variance from mic to mic with the NTG4+.

T
 
I have great success with a Seinnheiser MKE400 which takes 1x triple a battery. Don't think you will do much better

taken on board ship and great sound


iew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQiztj-wtM8

AGXtBgV.jpg

on ninon camera

GL4XFUS.jpg
 
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beyond the blue said:
Rode NTG2. I tried a few different cables and none worked properly until I made my own. The wiring description in their user guide is wrong for my setup. What make and wiring configuration are you using that give the problem?
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I'm using an adapter from xlr to 3.5mm, this one https://hosatech.com/products/analog-audio/camcorder-mic-cables/xvs-100f/ which has a wiring diagram on that link. Into the camera is useless (worse than the onboard mic). Using this adapter into the Tascam and sound is ok but have to have the gain up high.

Even now I am using a sssnake 6m xlr cable into the tascam https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk233-6_mikrokabel.htm?sid=334f6bc91437aa9cbfe8c09760f3689a and seems ok but have to have the gain up high as well.

I think the rode has a very low output, just not sure if it is mine only (i.e. a fault) or if all NTG4+'s are like this.

T
 
beyond the blue said:
Rode NTG2. I tried a few different cables and none worked properly until I made my own. The wiring description in their user guide is wrong for my setup. What make and wiring configuration are you using that give the problem?
Click to expand...

I guess you are not going straight into a dslr with xlr, have you got an adapter?
What did you do differently wiring wise?
does the mic have a decent output level or do you have to up it in camera?

T
 
Ok, first of all I'm no expert, I solved my problem through trial and error. Why are you using an adaptor instead of a female XLR to 3.5mm stereo jack? That adaptor is wired for a stereo mic but the Rode is a mono mic. The wiring to send the signal from a mono mic to a 3.5mm stereo jack is different and that was the problem with my setup. Let me know why you need to use an adaptor and we can go from there.
 
beyond the blue said:
Ok, first of all I'm no expert, I solved my problem through trial and error. Why are you using an adaptor instead of a female XLR to 3.5mm stereo jack? That adaptor is wired for a stereo mic but the Rode is a mono mic. The wiring to send the signal from a mono mic to a 3.5mm stereo jack is different and that was the problem with my setup. Let me know why you need to use an adaptor and we can go from there.
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I'm going from XLR to my dslr so need 3.5mm, so just assumed that was a standard thing to use, female XLR to 3.5mm with a short bit of cable, which is what I am calling an adapter (but I'm less of an expert than you!!).

Does this wiring diagram look wrong to you?XVS-100F_diagram1.jpg
 
Yes that wiring was wrong for me, and that could be your problem as well. Look at the wiring in this link, this is the wiring that worked for me. What length of lead would you need? The link between ground and terminal 3 is important, without that there is a lot of interference. My rode will pick up a bird song in a tree 40ft away on 90% gain as well as I can hear it.
 

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beyond the blue said:
Yes that wiring was wrong for me, and that could be your problem as well. Look at the wiring in this link, this is the wiring that worked for me. What length of lead would you need? The link between ground and terminal 3 is important, without that there is a lot of interference. My rode will pick up a bird song in a tree 40ft away on 90% gain as well as I can hear it.
Click to expand...
I only need it about 30cm, wanted it for quick mobile mic on camera. Will have to look at buying the connections and some cable and see what happens! Where did you source the parts?

The tascam is great but won't use it for every job, just not enough time unless sit is a planned controlled shoot.

Cheers for your help, much appreciated.

T
 
I can knock one up for you if you like and post it to you, I've made a few different lengths for myself since solving the problem. It would be better, lighter and more flexible than most that are being sold these days and probably the same price.
 
beyond the blue said:
I can knock one up for you if you like and post it to you, I've made a few different lengths for myself since solving the problem. It would be better, lighter and more flexible than most that are being sold these days and probably the same price.
Click to expand...
Very kind, how much for a 30cm one?
 
How about if it works stick a few quid in a cancer research box, if it doesn't just bin it. Would a straight jack plug be ok as angled ones are not available at my local store and are slightly more difficult to solder?
 
beyond the blue said:
How about if it works stick a few quid in a cancer research box, if it doesn't just bin it. Would a straight jack plug be ok as angled ones are not available at my local store and are slightly more difficult to solder?
Click to expand...
That is very kind, will stick some money in a box either way, working or not, its only fair!

Straight connector is fine, looking forward to hopefully solving the problem!!!!

Will send my address by PM.

Thankyou again, T
 
On the bright side, spoke with Rode uk support today and the mic has a 10 year warranty, so no rush and they can test it whenever. Cant complain at that service!
 
Tony. Neil, i'm still following, can you keep up with the updates. Tony i'm very curious if, you have a duff mic, I know from personal experience it can happen.!!

I came across similar, bought a pair of big condensers, as overhead drum mics, different company SE, I mentioned this i think to Neil. One had something like half the output of the other, mic. SE just changed it instantly, they didn't even take it back to test, I had a new mic sent next day and they picked up the old at the same time and yes it was duff they came back incredibly apologetic, but their service and ownership of the problem was so good I'd recommend SE to anyone . So Tony it may well be worth your while getting that mic tested

Neil the above help to another is lovely nice one !! also cool to see you finally got there,although i've never come across wiring like your link before it's nice to know how you finally got around the problems

many thanks both


stu .

PS tony I also mentioned this to Niel, there is a company called Studio Spares,they might not help you now specifically but a good one to know of maybe for the future

Home Recording & Studio Equipment

Studiospares is the number one pro audio supplier in the UK. We have the best prices, free delivery over £99, plus excellent customer support.
www.studiospares.com www.studiospares.com
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Tony. Neil, i'm still following, can you keep up with the updates. Tony i'm very curious if, you have a duff mic, I know from personal experience it can happen.!!

I came across similar, bought a pair of big condensers, as overhead drum mics, different company SE, I mentioned this i think to Neil. One had something like half the output of the other, mic. SE just changed it instantly, they didn't even take it back to test, I had a new mic sent next day and they picked up the old at the same time and yes it was duff they came back incredibly apologetic, but their service and ownership of the problem was so good I'd recommend SE to anyone . So Tony it may well be worth your while getting that mic tested

Neil the above help to another is lovely nice one !! also cool to see you finally got there,although i've never come across wiring like your link before it's nice to know how you finally got around the problems

many thanks both


stu .

PS tony I also mentioned this to Niel, there is a company called Studio Spares,they might not help you now specifically but a good one to know of maybe for the future

Home Recording & Studio Equipment

Studiospares is the number one pro audio supplier in the UK. We have the best prices, free delivery over £99, plus excellent customer support.
www.studiospares.com www.studiospares.com
Click to expand...

Sorry forgot to update this post in all my excitement!!

Neils cable worked a treat, mic is working perfectly now, because it is going from balanced to unbalanced, the signal was cancelling itself out.

I reported this back to the rode uk service guy and he replied that he didn't realise and would have suggested that in the first place if he knew it was a balanced adapter.

I do have the tascam dr60dmkii now and will probably just keep it as it does record nicer audio and will let me use multi channels, which now I have the option will probably try and fit it into appropriate jobs! Will probably need a decent lav mic and another with xlr so I can get the most from it... but spent enough for now!!

T
 
Chuffed you are both sorted tony, and also cheers for the come back.............. at some stage I'll find this very useful !!
 
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