Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Cobra]

First Deiselgate, will VW now give Ev's and Hybrids a bad name?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAJegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3EsU78bfHdSl4E275ekbG1

ooops

No sound, no noise, no exzhorst music!

On a more serious note ( sorry )
What about the phone zombies who fail to hear an approaching ICE vehicle and wander across the road in front of that?

 

[StewartR]

What about the phone zombies who fail to hear an approaching ICE vehicle and wander across the road in front of that?

Darwin explained that 150 years ago.

 

[wyx087]

And the big reason is fundamental.... No sound, no noise, no exzhorst music! When on the move, silent cars are very dangerous to all those outside them too. Yuk!

All Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe has a noise maker to generate a ghostly whine when driving below 18mph. Above it tyre noise will make your car audible.

The Jag IPace has got an artificial acceleration sound when you put it in sports mode. A lot of modern fossil fuel cars have artificial engine sound anyway.

I'm very used to driving EV now, I find the engine noise distracting low speed and the engine drone tiresome at high speed.

 

[StewartR]

First Deiselgate, will VW now give Ev's and Hybrids a bad name?
https://www.electricvehiclesresearc...n-may-recall-124-000-electric-and-hybrid-cars

On the face of it, this really is quite shocking:

Cadmium is carcinogenic and therefore prohibited in most car parts ..... the battery chargers in question are said to each contain 0.008 grams of the metal.

I mean, don't they have technical specifications or quality control? Or is there a bit of weasel-wording going on, and is cadmium technically not prohibited in batteries? (Just prohibited in "most" car parts?)

 

[nilagin]

A lot of modern fossil fuel cars have artificial engine sound anyway.

Sound insulation has meant it is harder to hear the sound of the engine which becomes an automatic response to changing gear. So they have an artificial sound played internally. There has been a recent call for Ev's to make more noise externally for safety reasons, tyre noise is nowhere near enough.

 

[Nod]

Sit next to a road and listen to cars passing. Very few engine noises can be heard over tyre noise at 30 MPH. I do tend to agree with the need for more noise at low speeds - fickw*ts keep stepping out in front of us - phone zombies to a man/woman!

 

[RedRobin]

On the face of it, this really is quite shocking:

I mean, don't they have technical specifications or quality control? Or is there a bit of weasel-wording going on, and is cadmium technically not prohibited in batteries? (Just prohibited in "most" car parts?)

....And also when you apply the Dust-to-Dust consideration which takes into account the eco/environmental impact in the real world - From manufacture right through to complete disposal and based on a yardstick of 100,000 miles per vehicle - Batteries and their production and disposal are not exactly planet Earth friendly!

On Dust-to-Dust for example the #1 friendliest is the traditional V8 petrol Jeep and the wretched Toyota Pious is about #80-something on the last rating list I saw.

 

[RedRobin]

I'm very used to driving EV now, I find the engine noise distracting low speed and the engine drone tiresome at high speed.

....Distracting you from what!? - Hearing and knowing how your vehicle's health is? Distracting you from changing into the optimum gear for both braking and acceleration safety reasons? < This applies at all speeds. In fact if you are making progress towards your vehicle's maximum speed it becomes even more important that you can hear what's going on.

A soulful engine sound is not a drone on a high quality car.

 

[nilagin]

Sit next to a road and listen to cars passing. Very few engine noises can be heard over tyre noise at 30 MPH. I do tend to agree with the need for more noise at low speeds - fickw*ts keep stepping out in front of us - phone zombies to a man/woman!

A lot depends on the actual road surface. Nice smooth tarmac and even tyre noise is minimal over 30mph unless you have nobbely off road tyres. A concrete road surface will produce tyre noise at almost any speed.

 

[RedRobin]

What about the phone zombies who fail to hear an approaching ICE vehicle and wander across the road in front of that?

....You don't have to be a 'phone zombie' [great term!] to fail to hear a virtually silent vehicle and that applies to both pedestrians and when driving on motorways.

For common sense safety reasons when driving anywhere, you need ALL your senses on alert. That's sight and sound. Hear and be heard! See and be seen!

 

[Mr Bump]

My citroen C3 petrol 1.4 is very quiet I must admit engine noise in a car is just tedious to me also.

 

[wyx087]

....Distracting you from what!? - Hearing and knowing how your vehicle's health is? Distracting you from changing into the optimum gear for both braking and acceleration safety reasons? < This applies at all speeds. In fact if you are making progress towards your vehicle's maximum speed it becomes even more important that you can hear what's going on.

A soulful engine sound is not a drone on a high quality car.

So a Rolls V12 isn't your type of car?

Gear changes are so 1980's

Engine braking is hardly braking compared to EV regenerative braking. The latter can be much more noticeable, to the point it can be driven with only 1 pedal.

....And also when you apply the Dust-to-Dust consideration which takes into account the eco/environmental impact in the real world - From manufacture right through to complete disposal and based on a yardstick of 100,000 miles per vehicle - Batteries and their production and disposal are not exactly planet Earth friendly!

On Dust-to-Dust for example the #1 friendliest is the traditional V8 petrol Jeep and the wretched Toyota Pious is about #80-something on the last rating list I saw.

Care to post your source?

I've previously posted sources that suggest the opposite for battery EV (energy for Prius still comes from fossil fuel, it's not really an EV).

Seriously, you need to go and try a good EV. If your preferred type of car is a 300bhp car, then you should go try a 300bph Tesla. Or compare a 1.0 litre 110bhp Golf against 110bph Nissan Leaf. You'd be surprised at the driving dynamics of EV.

 

[Cobra]

to the point it can be driven with only 1 pedal.

I see many BMW & Audi drivers daily that do that !
(The right hand one, if there was ever any doubt)

Gear changes are so 1980's

Its all part of the driving experience.
But I get it, people are either becoming lazy or just plain incompetent with normal driving manoeuvres and practices.
a car that parks itself? ffs! rear camera's and beepers for the inept What ever next?

As Zager and Evens noted in 1969 ...
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you

 

[nilagin]

Its all part of the driving experience.
But I get it, people are either becoming lazy or just plain incompetent with normal driving manoeuvres and practices.
a car that parks itself? ffs! rear camera's and beepers for the inept What ever next?

As Zager and Evens noted in 1969 ...
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you

Some people sadly just don't like the whole driving experience thing.
As you say, it leads to laziness. My previous car had reversing sensor and the current one also has a reversing camera. I try to, or so I thought, not rely on them, yet when I drove my wife's car, which has neither and also a lot smaller, I found myself struggling to reverse into a car park space. Mind you the odd position she has her door mirrors pointed wasn't exactly helpful.

 

[Cobra]

I found myself struggling to reverse into a car park space.

Well if you need lessons I'm happy to help.

A van with no rear windows or side panel windows and a car with the worst rear / side rear view vision I have ever driven ..
you soon get the hang of it. It becomes instinct

 

[andya700]

Well if you need lessons I'm happy to help.

A van with no rear windows or side panel windows and a car with the worst rear / side rear view vision I have ever driven ..
you soon get the hang of it. It becomes instinct

With my (and my wife's) cars - Skoda Octavia and Alfa GT - I like to park next to the curb between vehicles thus, avoiding kerbing the wheels (my very nice wheels).
From either side - OF or NS - drive forward half a car distance from the car in front, then full lock on the steering wheel to go into the kerb, changing to full lock the other way when you clear the vehicle in front's nose.
I have now thought that there are so many variables, that even this isn't clear.
Basically it is all down to coordination and spatial awareness.

 

[nilagin]

Well if you need lessons I'm happy to help.

A van with no rear windows or side panel windows and a car with the worst rear / side rear view vision I have ever driven ..
you soon get the hang of it. It becomes instinct

I coped. Earlier, when I got home from work in my car, I just looked in my mirrors when reversing and all was fine. I put yesterday's trouble down to my wife's poorly positioned door mirrors.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Gear changes are so European

FTFY

 

[Nod]

I coped. Earlier, when I got home from work in my car, I just looked in my mirrors when reversing and all was fine. I put yesterday's trouble down to my wife's poorly positioned door mirrors.

I'd put it down to your laziness in not bothering to adjust her mirrors properly... :

 

[StewartR]

Some people sadly just don't like the whole driving experience thing.

I'm one of them, but I don't think it's sad. (YMMV!) I find driving tiring. I sometimes wonder whether that's because I try to concentrate properly the whole time and some other people don't, but that's another discussion for another day. If I have to get from A to B, I would rather be in the passenger seat than the driving seat, and I would much much rather be on a train with a coffee / beer / book / newspaper / view. I can't wait for proper self driving cars. Hopefully they'll come along just in time to extend my independent personal mobility (I'm 56 now so the timing looks good).

I get it, people are either becoming lazy or just plain incompetent with normal driving manoeuvres and practices.

I personally don't take any particular pride in doing something manually when a machine could do it just as well, or better. (YMMV!) I don't wash my clothes by hand - the machine does it better. Does that make me lazy? I frequently don't wash the dishes myself, either - the machine does it better using less water. Does that make me lazy? If not, what is the fascination with moving a clutch pedal or a gear stick or a steering wheel yourself?

a car that parks itself? ffs! rear camera's and beepers for the inept What ever next?

A car that drives itself, please. I can't wait. (Actually I can, but probably only about 20 years.)

 

[nilagin]

I'd put it down to your laziness in not bothering to adjust her mirrors properly... :

I don't drive her car that often. Drivers door mirror position is ok, but the passenger side is pointed at the floor and that is the one I forget about. She reckons it's so she can see the kerb. Odd seeing as she won't reverse into a parking space.
Laziness, possibly forgetfulness as we are running late as she is slow to get ready, much more likely.

 

[nilagin]

I'm one of them, but I don't think it's sad. (YMMV!) I find driving tiring. I sometimes wonder whether that's because I try to concentrate properly the whole time and some other people don't, but that's another discussion for another day. If I have to get from A to B, I would rather be in the passenger seat than the driving seat, and I would much much rather be on a train with a coffee / beer / book / newspaper / view. I can't wait for proper self driving cars. Hopefully they'll come along just in time to extend my independent personal mobility (I'm 56 now so the timing looks good).


I personally don't take any particular pride in doing something manually when a machine could do it just as well, or better. Does that make me lazy? If not, what is the fascination with moving a clutch pedal or a gear stick

I am concentrating the whole time behind the wheel, not only taking in what is happening in my immediate surroundings but also further afield, so I can anticipate what other motorists maybe about to do. But it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the actual driving any less.
I can't abide public transport. I would much rather be in my own space and find using a car much more flexible and quicker.
As far as driving is concerned, auto is not always better. I think it was Sabine Schmidt that drove an Audi R8 with DSG around a race track. She did one lap allowing the box to make the gear changes and then did a faster lap changing the gears herself.

Automated cars will remove a lot of the troublesome drivers on the road, me personally, I would much rather drive.

 

[Nod]

I don't drive her car that often. Drivers door mirror position is ok, but the passenger side is pointed at the floor and that is the one I forget about. She reckons it's so she can see the kerb. Odd seeing as she won't reverse into a parking space.
Laziness, possibly forgetfulness as we are running late as she is slow to get ready, much more likely.

Mine automatically drops to the kerb when I go into reverse. Sometimes a PITA but the reversing camera helps - and lets me get far closer than I'd dare with mirrors only! Both of hers stay "normal" but are easily and quickly adjustable remotely so I do that.

Auto v. manual is a hard one. Successive governments have taken most of the fun out of driving (on the highway) so auto is fine. I have the flappy paddle option in mine so don't have to rely on its (fast) kickdown and the EV is single speed anyway (with the option of switching off the Eco mode to sharpen the "throttle" response [which works very well!]). The MX5 is manual and a bit more involving - a lovely 'box to use too, compared with most other cars I've driven.

 

[Cobra]

Basically it is all down to coordination and spatial awareness.

And some people are just not capable of it either. I could tell you loads of stories, during my (circa) 1200 miles / week journeys all over East Anglia,
A funny one recently I watched someone try and reverse park a golf, in a space, where one of these giant Q Audi's had just driven out of, several attempts at that, she tried front end in, several attempts
and she drove off, I've no idea if she ever parked it or is still driving around several days later ....

I coped. Earlier, when I got home from work in my car, I just looked in my mirrors when reversing and all was fine. I put yesterday's trouble down to my wife's poorly positioned door mirrors.

If all else fails, blame the wife

I frequently don't wash the dishes myself, either - the machine does it better using less water. Does that make me lazy?

I've never owned a dish washer, never felt the need. I hope they have improved over the years though, many of my friends had them, and yet were still washing pots and pans by hand,
AFTER they came out of the wash, as the little machine failed to do the job properly.

If not, what is the fascination with moving a clutch pedal or a gear stick or a steering wheel yourself?

I would rather be fully in charge of a lethal weapon that weighs a ton + than let some machine make the "call"

Automated cars will remove a lot of the troublesome drivers on the road,

Lets hope so eh?

 

[nilagin]

If all else fails, blame the wife

Just been out in her car again, but remembered to adjust the mirrors beforehand, parking was no problem at all so definitely her fault.

 

[Cobra]

Just been out in her car again, but remembered to adjust the mirrors beforehand, parking was no problem at all so definitely her fault.

Point proven, conclusively, I'd say

 

[Nod]

I've never owned a dish washer,

Me neither. However, since she's not looking over my shoulder, I'll admit to marrying one!!!

 

[StewartR]

As far as driving is concerned, auto is not always better. I think it was Sabine Schmidt that drove an Audi R8 with DSG around a race track. She did one lap allowing the box to make the gear changes and then did a faster lap changing the gears herself.

It probably won't surprise you that I can't drive like Sabine Schmidt. Automatic is definitely better for me, not least because it frees up cognitive resources that I think are better directed towards other more valuable and important tasks. I suspect the same is probably true for most people who can't drive like Sabine Schmidt.

 

[neil_g]

I like vag dsg, my next car will have it. But a manual change will always win for balls out performance.

Problem is I find I'm more distract able in an auto where I have less to think about.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I personally don't take any particular pride in doing something manually when a machine could do it just as well, or better.

I suspect we're more than 20 years away from that for cars (although modern driving capability seems to be diminishing rapidly, so perhaps they'll meet heading in opposite directions). You wouldn't use a camera to take a portrait just relying on 'smile detection' etc to choose when to fire the shutter, so it is that I would expect human drivers to be capable of handling a car better in extreme situations than an automated system. I enjoy mechanical, technical challenges, and driving a car provides some of the challenge that I enjoy.

It probably won't surprise you that I can't drive like Sabine Schmidt. Automatic is definitely better for me, not least because it frees up cognitive resources that I think are better directed towards other more valuable and important tasks. I suspect the same is probably true for most people who can't drive like Sabine Schmidt.

A manual car offers the driver - probably an average driver - more fine control over speed, especially when driving in traffic compared to an automatic. Not everyone will use small amounts of engine braking to adjust their speed in the general flow, but *in my experience* lifting off an auto results in the thing effectively free-wheeling, with less control of speed. I end up driving autos whenever I'm in North America, and while some European models are definitely better, it just makes things a bit less certain, a little less safe.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Interesting thread.

A friend of mine is set on getting a Tesla 3 as his next car within the next 12 months, personally I am in no hurry in getting to an EV, not because I won’t save money, not because of performance or even battery degradation but simply because the infrastructure isn’t there. I live in Herefordshire, the nearest Super Charge point is in Gloucester, and I think on the way to Heathrow there are 1 on route. I fly in and out of Heathrow a few times a year, with my petrol car I can get there and back in 1 tank of fuel with spare. In an EV this will be a problem because it is about 130miles in distance. Even the longest range EV will struggle to get there and back in 1 charge and the car don’t re-charge whilst I am parked in the airport car park meaning I will have to charge once on the way back home. At minimum I will be forced to stop at the Super Charge station for about 30mins. This isn’t a problem per-say because it would have to be planned but I would like that to be optional and would like there to be more charging station so not every man and his dog doing the same journey will be doing the same thing I am…with only 2 bays (I think) in that service station a 30min charge may turn into 1 hour if I am in a queue.

The obstacle for me isn’t speed (0-60 in 5sec for the base Tesla 3 is MORE than fast enough), but range and charging time.

You also need a garage at home to charge this which makes 95% of normal average earners living in london. Out of the equation

 

[Nod]

You also need a garage at home to charge this which makes 95% of normal average earners living in london. Out of the equation

A garage for what? While we do have a garage, it's full of bikes rather than the cars (which include an EV) - the charger for the EV is mounted on the wall outside the garage and the EV lives on the drive.

 

[jonneymendoza]

A garage for what? While we do have a garage, it's full of bikes rather than the cars (which include an EV) - the charger for the EV is mounted on the wall outside the garage and the EV lives on the drive.

Soz I mean a drive at least.

 

[Nod]

Apparently any off road space next to the property is good enough for the installers to put a charger in.

 

[nilagin]

Automatic is definitely better for me, not least because it frees up cognitive resources that I think are better directed towards other more valuable and important tasks.

Like what? You are still driving a car, you should still be using the same mental awareness when driving, all you have removed is the action of changing gear, which takes very little thought and you are likely to do it without any real recognition as it becomes an "automatic" reaction.

 

[Cobra]

Apparently any off road space next to the property is good enough for the installers to put a charger in.

*If* that is the overriding criteria ( and I've no idea) it falls at the first hurdle certainly for a lot of the newer builds)
As I've mentioned before a lot of the estates around here, for circa the last 10 years have been built with a front door that opens onto a narrow road side pavement,
With parking in bays on the opposite side of the road, or a little way away, "Around the corner"

Even here, this estate ( early 70's) and other local ones ( mid /late 50's) there are several satellites, if you like, with in the estate, a couple of dozen houses built around and facing into a large green, laid back from the road, and no vehicle access. Some have off road parking bays laid back from the road and adjacent, others have on road parking.
Either way the closest parking to the closest house would be 50 yards.

These town planers have no foresight whatsoever

 

[Nod]

Loads of student housing being built with no provision for parking. Or deliveries. I wonder if the planners' kids get guaranteed places...

 

[mrtoad]

after a long consideration and check on prices....

fitted to my 58 skoda fabia 1.4Tdi its DP and whacks out 80bhp and can break the speed barrier on any uk road cruising....low revs make it better
10 gall tank...630 miles...driving sensibly
being a level 3 its got all a chap could need including £30pa road tax
no smelly fumes and with the appropriate additives clean mot's
parts courtesy of VAG and available at your local ebay site...oem in most cases but if you arent too stuck up you can use afmkt at a fraction of the cost...door switches and such...
everyone drives a skoda....
they made bikes once...
bird with an arrow..!!

 

[neil_g]

Wut?

 

[wyx087]

I feel, like EV's, automatic gearbox get a bad rep because many people just don't understand it and/or have not tried the latest ones.

Dual-clutch autos are lightning fast, when you use it right (most of the time, see below)
Traditional autos are now also very good, especially the ZF ones used in BMW and Jag.
Avoid automated manual (aka single clutch auto) like a pledge though.
CVT is a good idea for economy and efficiency. But it will take some getting use to, perhaps too big a leap from manual (which is why it's not popular despite the efficiency benefits)

I personally don't take any particular pride in doing something manually when a machine could do it just as well, or better.

I suspect we're more than 20 years away from that for cars (although modern driving capability seems to be diminishing rapidly, so perhaps they'll meet heading in opposite directions). You wouldn't use a camera to take a portrait just relying on 'smile detection' etc to choose when to fire the shutter, so it is that I would expect human drivers to be capable of handling a car better in extreme situations than an automated system. I enjoy mechanical, technical challenges, and driving a car provides some of the challenge that I enjoy.

A manual car offers the driver - probably an average driver - more fine control over speed, especially when driving in traffic compared to an automatic. Not everyone will use small amounts of engine braking to adjust their speed in the general flow, but *in my experience* lifting off an auto results in the thing effectively free-wheeling, with less control of speed. I end up driving autos whenever I'm in North America, and while some European models are definitely better, it just makes things a bit less certain, a little less safe.

I'm pretty sure Stewart is talking about the gearbox

I'd have to say especially in traffic, driving a manual is sooooo cumbersome and tiresome. My left leg felt like doing a leg-day after a 2 hour congestion into Glasgow, back in 2000's. I personally don't take any particular pride in doing something manually when a machine could do it just as well, or better.

In my DSG car, I can regularly use engine braking by putting the gearbox into sport mode (quick pull on the leaver). It'll shift-down and engine brake if you are not on accelerator. Total control of speed without the leg-day workout, perfect for a lazy sod like me.

I like vag dsg, my next car will have it. But a manual change will always win for balls out performance.

I have a DSG in my dirty diesel Skoda Octavia 3 now, it's not as good as people makes them out to be. Biggest problem is when cruising along at 50mph in top gear behind a slow car and decide to slip into a gap in the fast lane. The kickdown needed to drop down 2 gears, taking second(s) rather than the instant downshift it promised.

But that was due to coming from EV, I was used to instant power at drop of a hat. If you put it into sport mode before you kick-down, it would have dropped a gear imminently and ready for another gear drop when you kick-down.