Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[nilagin]

Where does 400k come from? Is that the most up-to-date figures? Or have you taken a figure from years ago and ran all your assumptions based on outdated information.
Where is this article you are quoting?
.

You keep saying Model 3 is selling well because of the backlog. Tesla had 400k pre-orders, so far in America alone, they've registered close to 500k cars. So in US, they ought to have sold more than their backlog by now, current quarter US orders will all be from new orders. It would be interesting to see whether they will continue outsell ICE cars in the same class.
Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/tesla-model-3-vin-tracker/

I rest my case.

 

[PaulF]

I'm afraid to invoke wraith of Neil...... but the link I've replied to you, last time you posted this question, contains the models Tesla have used to compare their Model 3.

Your correct, I didn't take too much notice of the graph. So 3 German saloons the Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Merc C class and the Lexus IS are what Tesla see as their direct competition. All imports to USA, surprised there is no American car that they see as a direct competitor.

 

[nilagin]

So 3 German saloons the Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Merc C class and the Lexus IS are what Tesla see as their direct competition. All imports to USA.

The fact that they are imports and not built in America, is what puts pricing in Tesla's favour, with import duty, those cars are $2k-$5k more expensive than a Model 3. Complete opposite in the UK though, the competition is £5k -£10k cheaper on list price, negotiate a discount and you could be £12k or more cheaper than the Tesla with some of those cars.

 

[dod]

You said regenerative braking in an EV is configurable and can be akin to dropping 2 or 3 gears in an ICE vehicle. He said it wasn't even similar to dropping 2 gears, it was more moderate. You "liked" his post which means you are now disagreeing with your own statement.
You are now seriously losing you your grip on reality.

.

Regen braking in an EV is much more pronounced then engine braking

even just lifting off the accelerator in an EV gives a far greater braking effect than it does in an ICE car.

 

[wyx087]

I read what you said and he said and understood the implications of both perfectly.
You said regenerative braking in an EV is configurable and can be akin to dropping 2 or 3 gears in an ICE vehicle. He said it wasn't even similar to dropping 2 gears, it was more moderate. You "liked" his post which means you are now disagreeing with your own statement.
You are now seriously losing you your grip on reality.

The 400k figure came from you.

*sigh* I won't bother explain regen braking again. Just for your future reference, "more pronounced" is complete opposite to "more moderate".

400k came from me, when a more accurate number did not matter. Tracking data on Bloomberg showed there are close to 500k VIN registered. Thus I did not waste time getting most up-to-date figures. But because you are saying there had only been 300k vehicle produced (why would they register 200k VIN's in advance?) we would need to ensure the pre-order figure is up-to-date before making any comparisons, before coming to conclusions.
But you have made your conclusion before assembling accurate information.

Most Porsche 911 are a weekend toy and at over £90k plus so only sell 35k a year. The Taycan is a sports saloon car, will likely be used everyday of the week and is expected to be cheaper than a base 911, of course they expect to sell more. About the same number as the Panamera in fact, their current sports saloon
So what is the point your trying to make?

Tesla should produce well over 200k Model 3 by end of this year, 2019.
Porsche is matching EV production to their ICE car in the same class in the first year of starting production, 2019/2020.
VW is said to target 330k EV production by 2021. https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/23/vw-first-id-3-production-line-ready-by-august/

Meanwhile, a blue logo manufacturer seems to be saying "oh!....... we'll have some sort of mass production electric car in 2023, can't promise any numbers, no announcement on securing battery supply chain......... but remember, we make best selling cars, so keep buying them"

 

[nilagin]

*sigh* I won't bother explain regen braking again. Just for your future reference, "more pronounced" is complete opposite to "more moderate".

400k came from me, when a more accurate number did not matter. Tracking data on Bloomberg showed there are close to 500k VIN registered. Thus I did not waste time getting most up-to-date figures. But because you are saying there had only been 300k vehicle produced (why would they register 200k VIN's in advance?) we would need to ensure the pre-order figure is up-to-date before making any comparisons, before coming to conclusions.
But you have made your conclusion before assembling accurate information.


Tesla should produce well over 200k Model 3 by end of this year, 2019.
Porsche is matching EV production to their ICE car in the same class in the first year of starting production, 2019/2020.
VW is said to target 330k EV production by 2021. https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/23/vw-first-id-3-production-line-ready-by-august/

Meanwhile, a blue logo manufacturer seems to be saying "oh!....... we'll have some sort of mass production electric car in 2023, can't promise any numbers, no announcement on securing battery supply chain......... but remember, we make best selling cars, so keep buying them"

So now you are saying you made up the number of Model 3 preorders because the number didn't matter. Of course it matters. More b******t from you. We have Tesla's own preorder figure, 325k. We also have Tesla's own production figures. Less than 300k at some point this year. Tesla will still have been recieving orders since production has started. Assigning VIN numbers would just be a way of keeping track of the order in which the cars should be built.
All your digs about Ford are totally inaccurate. Perhaps like Mr Bump you ought to do some research instead of writing more b******t and making yourself look a total idiot.
With 16 fully electric vehicles coming from Ford by 2022/3, not just one as you are trying to make out, it would be impossible at this point in time to estimate a yearly production number, especially as the demand for new cars is falling in a lot of the world's largest markets. If Ford doesn't have a battery supplier, I guess the Ev and mild hybrid Territory and Puma SUV's and Ford's plug in hybrids must all be running on pixie dust.

 

[onomatopoeia]

In other news, Porsche thinks their upcoming performance EV will outsell their 911 performance car.

The comparison is not useful, nothing else in Porsche's range can be usefully compared with the 911. I drive an ICE Porsche with two seats (986 S, which is every day transport and currently sat in the car park outside work) and I wouldn't compare that to a 911, even though it has the same flat six engine as 911s the same age have.

The specs of the Taycan (range, charge time, performance) make it look like an early example of a viable EV finally on its way to market, and finally something I'd consider buying, rather than being told we should expect to sit in service stations for ages waiting for our Leafs or Zoes to charge up enough to do another 80 miles.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

The comparison is not useful, nothing else in Porsche's range can be usefully compared with the 911. I drive an ICE Porsche with two seats (986 S, which is every day transport and currently sat in the car park outside work) and I wouldn't compare that to a 911, even though it has the same flat six engine as 911s the same age have.

The specs of the Taycan (range, charge time, performance) make it look like an early example of a viable EV finally on its way to market, and finally something I'd consider buying, rather than being told we should expect to sit in service stations for ages waiting for our Leafs or Zoes to charge up enough to do another 80 miles.

The 'problem' with the Taycan is the rolling out of the Porsche Fast Charging Network, which at the moment is non-existent. Like all EV infrastructure this will determine the real world uptake of EV.

 

[wyx087]

So now you are saying you made up the number of Model 3 preorders because the number didn't matter. Of course it matters. More b******t from you. We have Tesla's own preorder figure, 325k. We also have Tesla's own production figures. Less than 300k at some point this year. Tesla will still have been recieving orders since production has started. Assigning VIN numbers would just be a way of keeping track of the order in which the cars should be built.

Source on your new 325k number? Are you sure it is the latest figure? Or did you just do what you usually do: use outdated information and never bother to learn new information?

325k reservations is from 2016, before the car was even unveiled: https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/7/11385146/tesla-model-3-preorders-375000-elon-musk
A few months after unveil, it is said to be at 400k: https://electrek.co/2016/08/05/tesla-model-3-reservations-400000-cash-flow-customer-deposits/
This article in 2018 says there had been some cancellations as well as point out only Tesla knows the real number: https://electrek.co/2018/06/04/tesla-model-3-reservations-refunded-report/

It's difficult to know at which point they have cleared all their reservations. But we know for sure there have been new orders fulfilled from stories posted on social media.

If Tesla have assigned close to 500k VIN, nearly 200k more than their reported production. And using the information you have given us, that assigning VIN is a way of keeping track of orders. We could speculate that there is demand for 200k Model 3's awaiting production. That's a healthy demand for a good EV with great charging network.

All your digs about Ford are totally inaccurate. Perhaps like Mr Bump you ought to do some research instead of writing more b******t and making yourself look a total idiot.

Don't worry. I'll shut up when Ford, who taunts a range of best selling cars, produces as many EV's as other car companies next year. Should be an easy task

The specs of the Taycan (range, charge time, performance) make it look like an early example of a viable EV finally on its way to market, and finally something I'd consider buying, rather than being told we should expect to sit in service stations for ages waiting for our Leafs or Zoes to charge up enough to do another 80 miles.

Taycan can utilise 800v to double charge rate of other EV's (they charge at 400v). Unfortunately currently there is only 1 operational charging station and 2 others being built in UK. Though you'd have better luck in Europe, where Ionity has a much better coverage.

Luckily the problem with pre-2017 Leaf or pre-2016 Zoe, where on the motorway, you have to stop every hour for recharge, is no longer true for new EV's. The currently shortest range EV's on the new car market are Mini and Honda E, all will all able to do ~2 hours on the motorway after a rapid charge at service. To be honest, 2 hours drive is about time for a comfort break.

 

[nilagin]

Source on your new 325k number? Are you sure it is the latest figure? Or did you just do what you usually do: use outdated information and never bother to learn new information?

325k reservations is from 2016, before the car was even unveiled: https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/7/11385146/tesla-model-3-preorders-375000-elon-musk
A few months after unveil, it is said to be at 400k: https://electrek.co/2016/08/05/tesla-model-3-reservations-400000-cash-flow-customer-deposits/
This article in 2018 says there had been some cancellations as well as point out only Tesla knows the real number: https://electrek.co/2018/06/04/tesla-model-3-reservations-refunded-report/

It's difficult to know at which point they have cleared all their reservations. But we know for sure there have been new orders fulfilled from stories posted on social media.

If Tesla have assigned close to 500k VIN, nearly 200k more than their reported production. And using the information you have given us, that assigning VIN is a way of keeping track of orders. We could speculate that there is demand for 200k Model 3's awaiting production. That's a healthy demand for a good EV with great charging network.


Don't worry. I'll shut up when Ford, who taunts a range of best selling cars, produces as many EV's as other car companies next year. Should be an easy task


Taycan can utilise 800v to double charge rate of other EV's (they charge at 400v). Unfortunately currently there is only 1 operational charging station and 2 others being built in UK. Though you'd have better luck in Europe, where Ionity has a much better coverage.

Luckily the problem with pre-2017 Leaf or pre-2016 Zoe, where on the motorway, you have to stop every hour for recharge, is no longer true for new EV's. The currently shortest range EV's on the new car market are Mini and Honda E, all will all able to do ~2 hours on the motorway after a rapid charge at service. To be honest, 2 hours drive is about time for a comfort break.

It wasn't outdated information and even if it was, it is better than the b******t information you made up because it "doesn't matter". The article was written June this year.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BxAB&usg=AOvVaw0m_7gicWQBVArCbYK7Ds6l&ampcf=1
It also states that last year Tesla sold just 140k Model 3's, that will be cars built, registered and delivered. Model 3 production started in July 2017, it took until July 2018 before they managed to ramp production up to 5k a week, so there wouldn't have been many cars built in 2017.

If there is 200k orders for Model 3 waiting to be built, that is worldwide orders, 200k isn't that impressive.

I am not worried. You carry on making yourself look an idiot.

You best toddle off now, you must be due a comfort break. Better still get yourself along to a doctor, you may have something wrong with your bladder or something.

 

[broc]

To be fair, there are a number of sources that suggest taking a break after 2 hours driving is a good idea when driving long distances...... so stopping to recharge at 2 hours is not unreasonable as long as it doesn't take longer than say 15 minutes.

 

[nilagin]

To be fair, there are a number of sources that suggest taking a break after 2 hours driving is a good idea when driving long distances...... so stopping to recharge at 2 hours is not unreasonable as long as it doesn't take longer than say 15 minutes.

Yet HGV drivers are allowed to drive for 4.5hrs before having to take a break.

 

[broc]

Yet HGV drivers are allowed to drive for 4.5hrs before having to take a break.

HGV drivers are used to it, many private car owners are not. When I was younger & worked for a living as an IT Consultant I could drive as much as 40,000 miles a year visiting my clients & I got 'used' to driving 3-4 hours without a break.

Since retiring my annual mileage is < 5000 miles & the occasions when I need to travel long distances are much fewer.

These days I now feel ready for a break after driving for 2 hours....... both our cars even 'recommend' taking a break after 2 hours driving . There are plenty of roadside warning signs advising motorists to take a break.

 

[nilagin]

HGV drivers are used to it, many private car owners are not. When I was younger & worked for a living as an IT Consultant I could drive as much as 40,000 miles a year visiting my clients & I got 'used' to driving 3-4 hours without a break.

Since retiring my annual mileage is < 5000 miles & the occasions when I need to travel long distances are much fewer.

These days I now feel ready for a break after driving for 2 hours....... both our cars even 'recommend' taking a break after 2 hours driving . There are plenty of roadside warning signs advising motorists to take a break.

HGV drivers are allowed to drive for 4.5hrs from day one though without being used to it.
Take a Break signs are for tiredness, not to remind drivers they have been driving for 2hrs and need to take a whizz.
In almost 40yrs of driving the largest amount of my driving has been for 10-20 minute driving. But a couple of times a year it isn't a problem to drive for 3-4hrs without a break. I wouldn't qualify that as being used to it.

 

[broc]

HGV drivers are allowed to drive for 4.5hrs from day one though without being used to it.
Take a Break signs are for tiredness, not to remind drivers they have been driving for 2hrs and need to take a whizz.
In almost 40yrs of driving the largest amount of my driving has been for 10-20 minute driving. But a couple of times a year it isn't a problem to drive for 3-4hrs without a break. I wouldn't qualify that as being used to it.

That's fine if you can drive for 3-4 hours without fatigue & maintain full attention (and not need the toilet), some of us (with 50 years driving experience) are happier with the idea of stopping after a couple of hours for a break (to stretch legs, grab some food/have a drink, answer a call of nature whatever). Each to their own.......

If (big IF) I bought an EV, it would have to be a) affordable b) meet my general requirements regarding size, space, ability to tow etc and c) be able to significantly recharge (to give me at least another 2 hours driving range) within the 15-20 minutes 'comfort' breaks I take when on a long distance journey.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Yet, you were going on about how braking does not burn fuel. Meaning you do not understand the concept of energy transformation.

I think we already knew this, there was a thread a while back where certain people were struggling to grasp why adding a dynamo, or air turbine or whatever to an EV didn't mean it could recharge itself while driving around and therefore never run out of power..

 

[nilagin]

I think we already knew this, there was a thread a while back where certain people were struggling to grasp why adding a dynamo, or air turbine or whatever to an EV didn't mean it could recharge itself while driving around and therefore never run out of power..

That has nothing to do with his claim that braking burns fuel. The only way that can happen is by left foot braking, using the handbrake whilst pressure is still applied to the accelerator or braking by whatever means with your foot on the clutch or gearbox is in neutral.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

That has nothing to do with his claim that braking burns fuel. The only way that can happen is by left foot braking, using the handbrake whilst pressure is still applied to the accelerator or braking by whatever means with your foot on the clutch or gearbox is in neutral.

Or anti-lag

 

[wyx087]

That has nothing to do with his claim that braking burns fuel. The only way that can happen is by left foot braking, using the handbrake whilst pressure is still applied to the accelerator or braking by whatever means with your foot on the clutch or gearbox is in neutral.

I think we need to revisit the original post, so you can learn to read:

[braking] is literally burning energy, the energy I had purchased, it feels like burning money!

You then taken this and ran with the idea that I said "braking burns fuel". Yet after many posts, 2 pages later, you are still unable to take in new information and hangs on to your old and wrong initial impression.

It wasn't outdated information and even if it was, it is better than the b******t information you made up because it "doesn't matter". The article was written June this year.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BxAB&usg=AOvVaw0m_7gicWQBVArCbYK7Ds6l&ampcf=1

Again, you are ignoring all new information, only using one (wrong) source. Here is a more accurate with multiple references to its data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
"Within a week of unveiling the Model 3 in 2016, Tesla revealed they had taken 325,000 reservations for the car. These reservations represented potential sales of over US$14 billion.[18][19] By August 2017, there were 455,000 net reservations.[20][21]"
But today, Aug 2019, we do not know how many reservation had been cleared. How many were cancelled. How many new orders where there. So can only use an estimate of the original number.

If I want to make a point regarding X > Y, where both numbers are estimates. The accuracy of Y does not matter as long as X is much greater than Y.

If there is 200k orders for Model 3 waiting to be built, that is worldwide orders, 200k isn't that impressive.

BMW produces 400k a year for their 3 series world wide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series#Production_and_sales)
Tesla able to build ~300k per year for their Model 3. If there are 200k already found owners, looks like demand for EV is very high.

If only there's manufacturers ready to take orders........ Jag/Audi/Merc are starting at luxury end (like Tesla did years ago with Model S and X). VW seems almost there for good price high volume car. Mini is on the ball. Peugeot and Vauxhall are working on it.
Ford........ release a picture, no camouflaged test car seen. Also do a train-pull PR stunt that is totally pointless: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28506476/ford-electric-f150-train-tow-physics-explained/

 

[nilagin]

I think we need to revisit the original post, so you can learn to read:

You then taken this and ran with the idea that I said "braking burns fuel". Yet after many posts, 2 pages later, you are still unable to take in new information and hangs on to your old and wrong initial impression.


Again, you are ignoring all new information, only using one (wrong) source. Here is a more accurate with multiple references to its data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
"Within a week of unveiling the Model 3 in 2016, Tesla revealed they had taken 325,000 reservations for the car. These reservations represented potential sales of over US$14 billion.[18][19] By August 2017, there were 455,000 net reservations.[20][21]"
But today, Aug 2019, we do not know how many reservation had been cleared. How many were cancelled. How many new orders where there. So can only use an estimate of the original number.

If I want to make a point regarding X > Y, where both numbers are estimates. The accuracy of Y does not matter as long as X is much greater than Y.


BMW produces 400k a year for their 3 series world wide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series#Production_and_sales)
Tesla able to build ~300k per year for their Model 3. If there are 200k already found owners, looks like demand for EV is very high.

If only there's manufacturers ready to take orders........ Jag/Audi/Merc are starting at luxury end (like Tesla did years ago with Model S and X). VW seems almost there for good price high volume car. Mini is on the ball. Peugeot and Vauxhall are working on it.
Ford........ release a picture, no camouflaged test car seen. Also do a train-pull PR stunt that is totally pointless: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28506476/ford-electric-f150-train-tow-physics-explained/

So what is this energy you have paid for other than fuel? The fuel has already been used to the point you take your foot off the accelerator and start braking. At that point you are not paying for anything and not burning anything you have paid for.

The Bloomberg article gave Tesla's own total production figures up to a couple of months ago. It was less around 270k cars. Now you are quoting 455k orders by Aug. 17. Not all of those will be pre orders as production started June 17. Tesla only managed to ramp up to 5k a week in June 18. Prior to that production numbers were very low. For Tesla to have cleared their backlog of around 400k preorders, they must have had over 100k cancellations.
Jag and Merc only make luxury cars anyway so not likely to start lower down the market, they haven't done the same as Tesla, as Tesla didn't start with the luxury market S and X.
Not all test cars are camouflaged. Many test cars or mules as they are known are existing cars with the test running gear and engines already fitted. You may well have driven past one and not known anything about it.

 

[wyx087]

So what is this energy you have paid for other than fuel? The fuel has already been used to the point you take your foot off the accelerator and start braking. At that point you are not paying for anything and not burning anything you have paid for.

Keep digging that hole of yours.

Let's put this as simply as possible:
Money is used to buy fuel
-> Larger amount of fuel is used to gain kinetic energy (larger than fuel needed to maintain speed)
-> Momentum of the moving vehicle contains kinetic energy
-> When slowing down, all of the kinetic energy is turned into heat energy
Thus, slowing down in non-EV is burning away energy. Feels like burning money.

But instead of wasting the energy as heat, EV is able to recapture some of it.
Audi took the idea further by capturing 10kWh into the battery when going downhill. Energy usually lost as heat in the brake and drivetrain of ICE cars. https://insideevs.com/news/338980/watch-as-audi-e-tron-gains-energy-downhill/

For me, I had recaptured about 800kWh of energy during ~18000 miles of driving, according to the car telemetric. About 14% of my driving is from energy that would have gone to waste. This percentage would be higher if my commute is not on the motorway at constant speed. When I drove to London science museum on 50th anniversary of moon landing last month, 27% of my driving was using energy from regenerative braking.

The Bloomberg article gave Tesla's own total production figures up to a couple of months ago. It was less around 270k cars. Now you are quoting 455k orders by Aug. 17. Not all of those will be pre orders as production started June 17. Tesla only managed to ramp up to 5k a week in June 18. Prior to that production numbers were very low. For Tesla to have cleared their backlog of around 400k preorders, they must have had over 100k cancellations.

So now, you are spinning the numbers as having huge amount of cancellations. The truth is we don't know anything, the media, you or I can spin the number whichever way we like.

For example: You've said VIN allocation would be used as a way to track orders, there are ~200k more VIN than reported production. IF there had been that much cancellations, there must had been a healthy amount of new orders. Oh dear, are you suggesting there's a very healthy demand for those Tesla's?

 

[nilagin]

Keep digging that hole of yours.

Let's put this as simply as possible:
Money is used to buy fuel
-> Larger amount of fuel is used to gain kinetic energy (larger than fuel needed to maintain speed)
-> Momentum of the moving vehicle contains kinetic energy
-> When slowing down, all of the kinetic energy is turned into heat energy
Thus, slowing down in non-EV is burning away energy. Feels like burning money.

But instead of wasting the energy as heat, EV is able to recapture some of it.
Audi took the idea further by capturing 10kWh into the battery when going downhill. Energy usually lost as heat in the brake and drivetrain of ICE cars. https://insideevs.com/news/338980/watch-as-audi-e-tron-gains-energy-downhill/

For me, I had recaptured about 800kWh of energy during ~18000 miles of driving, according to the car telemetric. About 14% of my driving is from energy that would have gone to waste. This percentage would be higher if my commute is not on the motorway at constant speed. When I drove to London science museum on 50th anniversary of moon landing last month, 27% of my driving was using energy from regenerative braking.


So now, you are spinning the numbers as having huge amount of cancellations. The truth is we don't know anything, the media, you or I can spin the number whichever way we like.

For example: You've said VIN allocation would be used as a way to track orders, there are ~200k more VIN than reported production. IF there had been that much cancellations, there must had been a healthy amount of new orders. Oh dear, are you suggesting there's a very healthy demand for those Tesla's?

The only one digging a hole is yourself. You have spouted so much s*** that you have confused yourself.

You have already burnt the energy you have paid for. The energy that is being burnt when braking or slowing down is free. The fact you think it feels like you are burning energy you have paid for just confirms your lack of understanding or lack of a grip on reality.
You are the one who came up with the figure of 455k orders by August 17. You are the one who suggested they may have had cancellations. You are the one who provided the Bloomberg link with Tesla's own production graph
I don't need to spin anything. You are just s*** at maths.

 

[wyx087]

As we approach 100 pages. I'd like to remind people to always keep an open mind towards EV's and new technology. EV is still in early days, if benefits of EV doesn't suit you right now, doesn't mean it will never suit your needs.

Yes, right now, EV is slightly more expensive to buy. But price is dropping.
Yes, right now, public charging infrastructure is not quite ready, but more is constantly getting built.
Yes, right now, charging speed is a bit longer than usual comfort break dwell time, but they are coming down. (from 50-80kW today to 150kW and Porsche are rolling out 350kW)

When researching, always try to get the latest information. A year or older articles regarding charging network, opinion pieces regarding EV prices and user experience are out of date. Always look for latest information.



Don't be like Neil here: :banghead:

You have already burnt the energy you have paid for. The energy that is being burnt when braking or slowing down is free. The fact you think it feels like you are burning energy you have paid for just confirms your lack of understanding or lack of a grip on reality.

Have you ever considered your physics knowledge needs a refresher? Have you ever considered taking in new information?

Energy does not equal to fuel.
Fuel is purchased, kinetic energy comes from a converter unit (ICE/motor) consumption of fuel.
Your car's momentum is kinetic energy * mass.
Nothing is free, your car's momentum is a result of you putting more energy into your car (by consuming fuel)
Burning energy just means converting energy into heat energy, which is precisely what ICE cars do when slowing down.
So in summary, you needed to put energy into your car to get it moving (by consuming fuel), then convert those energy into heat when stopping. Thus, you are burning the energy you have paid for.

You are the one lacking understanding on physics, and thus reality.

 

[stupar]

Easiest way to look at this braking issue is that in an ICE car, during braking all you are generating is heat and nothing else. In order to convert that heat back into kinetic energy requires the consumption of fuel and depending on your driving style (heavy brake and accelerator user) then you could be consuming more fuel than you might need to in order to keep momentum

In an EV car regenerative braking lets some energy feed back into the battery rather than just be lost like an ICE car.

Having driven both a Nissan Leaf and a Mitsubishi Outlander Phev for my work I can say that regen braking is a breath of fresh air (once you get used to it) and as it puts a little something back into the electrical tank then its a bonus.

As a side note I enjoy driving the hybrid and full EV cars and I'm a massive petrol head. Granted it takes the brain a bit of time to get used to new ways of driving but that's like most things in life that involve big change.

There will be those that love EV
There will be those that are unsure of EV
There will be those that are just plain ignorant to EV

The above three statements would have also been evident at the birth of the internal combustion engine and look where that has taken us!

Don't knock it until you have tried it.

 

[PaulF]

Easiest way to look at this braking issue is that in an ICE car, during braking all you are generating is heat and nothing else. In order to convert that heat back into kinetic energy requires the consumption of fuel and depending on your driving style (heavy brake and accelerator user) then you could be consuming more fuel than you might need to in order to keep momentum

In an EV car regenerative braking lets some energy feed back into the battery rather than just be lost like an ICE car.

Having driven both a Nissan Leaf and a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV I can say that regen braking is a breath of fresh air (once you get used to it) and as it puts a little something back into the electrical tank then its a bonus.

This is basically the point that has been kicked around for the last few days!

It wasn't that complicated really, could have been more clearly made though, not by you Stupar the other contributors I mean.

There is the complication that in an ice car when off the accelerator or braking they do charge the cars battery a little thus saving energy and emissions as the alternator doesn't need to work as hard. Note, not all ice cars I'm guessing but mine does.

But that really is the basic point.

 

[dod]

I think I can summarise the energy in braking thing quite succinctly.

Nobody really gives a s***.

That doesn't change the fact that EV's can be enjoyable to drive (to the point of being addictive) and can be cheaper than equivalent ICE. Some manufacturers are producing vehicles now, others claim they are but there's not much to be seen yet. Teslas figures are open to interpretation but as far as I can see they're the leader out there at the moment. That may change, hopefully it does as it means there's more choice.

EV's biggest issue would still seem to be range anxiety (charging issues ) even though for most people it's really not a problem. The range is more than adequate for most journeys, it's only longer trips where there may or may not be a genuine problem due to alack of infrastructure.

 

[broc]

I would say the biggest EV issue for me (apart from range anxiety) is lack of choice......

 

[nilagin]

Don't be like Neil here: :banghead:

Have you ever considered your physics knowledge needs a refresher? Have you ever considered taking in new information?

Energy does not equal to fuel.
Fuel is purchased, kinetic energy comes from a converter unit (ICE/motor) consumption of fuel.
Your car's momentum is kinetic energy * mass.
Nothing is free, your car's momentum is a result of you putting more energy into your car (by consuming fuel)
Burning energy just means converting energy into heat energy, which is precisely what ICE cars do when slowing down.
So in summary, you needed to put energy into your car to get it moving (by consuming fuel), then convert those energy into heat when stopping. Thus, you are burning the energy you have paid for.

You are the one lacking understanding on physics, and thus reality.

Your EV will also need to use more energy to regain the speed. The fact that your car will stop in a shorter distance than mine when engine braking means you will be back on the accelerator a lot earlier than me.

 

[nilagin]

https://insideevs.com/news/362819/ev-sales-scorecard-july-2019/
After a big increase in USA June sales compared to May's sales,Tesla's sales dipped again in July to lower than the May sales.

 

[DK602]

Your EV will also need to use more energy to regain the speed. The fact that your car will stop in a shorter distance than mine when engine braking means you will be back on the accelerator a lot earlier than me.

Biggest problem with EV - anyone who enjoys driving will not be interested in them; they are far to heavy and weight is the biggest enemy of a performance car, they also lack the beautiful sound of a tuned ICE.

EV will be a form of transport rather than pure driving pleasure.

Even if an EV uses regen technology whilst braking it will still not stop as quickly as an ICE car. What determines the cars stopping distance is the tyres; the higher the vertical load on a tyre the more grip it will have but the tyre performance curve is parabolic so the more weight you add the less efficient the tyre will be - therefore a heavy car will take longer to stop and also corner with less G.

Hence all race cars are made as light as possible to allow better tyre performance.

 

[stupar]

Biggest problem with EV - anyone who enjoys driving will not be interested in them; they are far to heavy and weight is the biggest enemy of a performance car, they also lack the beautiful sound of a tuned ICE.

EV will be a form of transport rather than pure driving pleasure.

Even if an EV uses regen technology whilst braking it will still not stop as quickly as an ICE car.QUOTE]

I enjoy driving and I don't mind EV.
Fact is at some point we will run out of dinosaur juice and EV will be the only option.

You can be a car fanatic without the need to squirt from A to B as fast as you can and not everyone wants a tuned engine/exhaust note.

On the regen braking you will be surprised.
When I did my EV training at work in the leaf one of my challenges was to park between two well spaced cars (approx 50ft apart) without using the brake pedal from 20mph. How did I do - the leaf stopped before it was even parallel against the kerb. You wouldn't be able to do that in an ICE even with down shifting.

 

[Nod]

EV will be a form of transport rather than pure driving pleasure.

Successive governments have removed almost all driving pleasure from the highway so cars are a form of transport anyway, unless you have access to a track.

Hence all race cars are made as light as possible to allow better tyre performance.

Then they add huge amounts of virtual weight to get them to stick to the track.

 

[DK602]

Successive governments have removed almost all driving pleasure from the highway so cars are a form of transport anyway, unless you have access to a track.



Then they add huge amounts of virtual weight to get them to stick to the track.

Adding aero is completely different to the mass of the vehicle and isn't a good comparison as it only acts in one direction hence the massive advantage it gives - it does not add to the kinetic energy a moving mass has.

 

[nilagin]

Biggest problem with EV - anyone who enjoys driving will not be interested in them; they are far to heavy and weight is the biggest enemy of a performance car, they also lack the beautiful sound of a tuned ICE.

EV will be a form of transport rather than pure driving pleasure.

Even if an EV uses regen technology whilst braking it will still not stop as quickly as an ICE car. What determines the cars stopping distance is the tyres; the higher the vertical load on a tyre the more grip it will have but the tyre performance curve is parabolic so the more weight you add the less efficient the tyre will be - therefore a heavy car will take longer to stop and also corner with less G.

Hence all race cars are made as light as possible to allow better tyre performance.

That only works in terms of using the brakes. Our friend has assured us regen braking is effectively like dropping a couple of gears in an ICE car. To brake that quickly in any vehicle is a need to scrub off a lot of speed quickly rather than just taking your foot off the accelerator to allow a car to slow gently as in normal engine braking. In this case an EV will stop quicker.

 

[nilagin]

Adding aero is completely different to the mass of the vehicle and isn't a good comparison as it only acts in one direction hence the massive advantage it gives - it does not add to the kinetic energy a moving mass has.

Actually it can. Correct airflow at the back of a car causes the air to circulate and push the car.

 

[wyx087]

That only works in terms of using the brakes. Our friend has assured us regen braking is effectively like dropping a couple of gears in an ICE car. To brake that quickly in any vehicle is a need to scrub off a lot of speed quickly rather than just taking your foot off the accelerator to allow a car to slow gently as in normal engine braking. In this case an EV will stop quicker.

Your EV will also need to use more energy to regain the speed. The fact that your car will stop in a shorter distance than mine when engine braking means you will be back on the accelerator a lot earlier than me.

The accelerator pedal isn't an on-off switch you know. You can modulate it to regen brake a tiny bit or regen brake akin to dropping 2 gears. You can also hold it at a position to not energise the motor and effectively coast (yet retaining complete control of vehicle). Some manufacturers of EV have put in flappy paddles on the steering wheel, allowing you to change regen strength on-the-fly, so you can go between coasting with foot off, to heavy regen braking by pulling the appropriate paddle.

Actually it can. Correct airflow at the back of a car causes the air to circulate and push the car.

I think DK is referring to the difference between aero downforce and weight. Weight force acts on the car in all 5 directions, 4 less desirable lateral directions.

Biggest problem with EV - anyone who enjoys driving will not be interested in them; they are far to heavy and weight is the biggest enemy of a performance car, they also lack the beautiful sound of a tuned ICE.

EV will be a form of transport rather than pure driving pleasure.

VW ID R are doing a good job of show casing what a performance EV could do. It recently broke the Goodwood record, set by McLaren F1

Of course eco-boxes like the Leaf or Zoe can't be driven like a hot-hatch. But when compared to other eco-boxes, the Leaf drives a LOT better. Its lower centre of gravity means it doesn't lean as much in the corners, its instant torque is addictive to use, both of which are inherent property of ALL EV's. When manufacturers start building EV in its dedicated EV factory using unique EV chassis (Leaf is built in ICE factory, most EV apart from Tesla and i3 are designed with shared powertrain in mind), there's no reason to NOT have a RWD hot hatch EV (eg. VW ID 3, BMW i3)

If you do have access to race tracks:
Tesla Model 3 are also consistently performing on-par, if not quicker, to than likes of M3 on the track.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/2...ance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/
Incidentally, the F80 M3 weighs 1,647 kg, while Model 3 performance weighs 1,847 kg (ref. the car's respective Wikipedia articles). 12%difference, but lower centre of gravity.

 

[PaulF]

Tesla paint process could end up costing them.
The telling aspect is the customer service response of not covered on warranty when the paint on the model 3 flakes within a month.
Hardly the quality or service you'd expect from a supposed premium car manufacturer.
https://insideevs.com/news/363399/tesla-model-3-paint-fragile/

 

[nilagin]

The accelerator pedal isn't an on-off switch you know. You can modulate it to regen brake a tiny bit or regen brake akin to dropping 2 gears. You can also hold it at a position to not energise the motor and effectively coast (yet retaining complete control of vehicle). Some manufacturers of EV have put in flappy paddles on the steering wheel, allowing you to change regen strength on-the-fly, so you can go between coasting with foot off, to heavy regen braking by pulling the appropriate paddle.


I think DK is referring to the difference between aero downforce and weight. Weight force acts on the car in all 5 directions, 4 less desirable lateral directions.



VW ID R are doing a good job of show casing what a performance EV could do. It recently broke the Goodwood record, set by McLaren F1

Of course eco-boxes like the Leaf or Zoe can't be driven like a hot-hatch. But when compared to other eco-boxes, the Leaf drives a LOT better. Its lower centre of gravity means it doesn't lean as much in the corners, its instant torque is addictive to use, both of which are inherent property of ALL EV's. When manufacturers start building EV in its dedicated EV factory using unique EV chassis (Leaf is built in ICE factory, most EV apart from Tesla and i3 are designed with shared powertrain in mind), there's no reason to NOT have a RWD hot hatch EV (eg. VW ID 3, BMW i3)

If you do have access to race tracks:
Tesla Model 3 are also consistently performing on-par, if not quicker, to than likes of M3 on the track.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/2...ance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/
Incidentally, the F80 M3 weighs 1,647 kg, while Model 3 performance weighs 1,847 kg (ref. the car's respective Wikipedia articles). 12%difference, but lower centre of gravity.

It is possible to moderate and balance the throttle pedal in an ICE as well. It isn't something new just because EV has arrived.
The VW I'D R actually failed to beat the official time at Goodwood. It managed to beat the time in a practice run on the Saturday but failed in its attempt on the Sunday.
The Focus EV was rated as a better handling car than the Leaf, a standard Focus handles better than the EV.
The Tesla 3 performance is 4wd, the BMW is RWD.

 

[nilagin]

Tesla paint process could end up costing them.
The telling aspect is the customer service response of not covered on warranty when the paint on the model 3 flakes within a month.
Hardly the quality or service you'd expect from a supposed premium car manufacturer.
https://insideevs.com/news/363399/tesla-model-3-paint-fragile/

It doesn't stop there. There are plenty of complaints regarding build quality. Poorly fitting panels etc. I happened to be behind a 67 plate model S last week and one of the flush fitting door handles was sitting about 2mm below the doors skin. How can you get that wrong? If they aren't all like that, there is something wrong with the door internals or the door skins aren't being drawn to the correct depth and shape.

 

[nilagin]

Successive governments have removed almost all driving pleasure from the highway so cars are a form of transport anyway, unless you have access to a track.

I have never had any trouble enjoying my cars on the roads and all within the safe confines of speed limits.