Car tyres a minefield ?

Overexposed said:
True driving skills are being able to recognise and not putting yourself in the situation where you are a passenger - there's too much crap written about how important premium tyres are essential, premium driving skills are far more important ie not getting yourself in a situation where you are beyond your limits and the vehicles limits.
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....I entirely agree but you are somewhat misrepresenting what I said by not quoting the whole context.

Driver education to improve roadcraft and learn yours and your car's limits, are key.

:)
 
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Most accidents are caused by going too quickly for the conditions , i'm not saying that driving skills are how you respond on and over the limit, but not putting yourself in the situation in the first place, yes there's situations like oil patches but in general that grey matter between your ears will help you far more than a set of premium tyres - if you are going too quick they may stop slightly quicker, but if you aren't going too quick for the conditions the problem doesn't arise
 
Driver education and road craft are one thing....... cheap tyres are another!

If there are two very average drivers in the same car doing the same speed on a damp road and they both react at the same time and have the same reaction time, the one that's fitted better tyres will come to a standstill quicker and if you believe the videos that are on youtube some cheaper tyres take significantly longer to stop you.

And that's just straightline braking, add trying to take evasive action in the the mix and it's a bit of a lottery.

In some situations there is no amount of driver training that will help. An example off the top of my head would be say on a motorway, you've got a safe gap between you and the car in front of you in lane 1, there's nothing in lane 2 or 3 as you're planning to pass a lorry that's ahead in lane 1.

You move out into lane 2, as you close in on the lorry one of it's tyres bursts sending rubber flying in all directions and the lorry is swerving all over the place. You're in a situation where you're just trying to react and you're fairly reliant on the car's handling to get you out of the situation in one piece. If you've fitted cheap tyres you're going to be at a disadvantage to start with.
 
Russ77 said:
Driver education and road craft are one thing....... cheap tyres are another!

If there are two very average drivers in the same car doing the same speed on a damp road and they both react at the same time and have the same reaction time, the one that's fitted better tyres will come to a standstill quicker and if you believe the videos that are on youtube some cheaper tyres take significantly longer to stop you.

And that's just straightline braking, add trying to take evasive action in the the mix and it's a bit of a lottery.

In some situations there is no amount of driver training that will help. An example off the top of my head would be say on a motorway, you've got a safe gap between you and the car in front of you in lane 1, there's nothing in lane 2 or 3 as you're planning to pass a lorry that's ahead in lane 1.

You move out into lane 2, as you close in on the lorry one of it's tyres bursts sending rubber flying in all directions and the lorry is swerving all over the place. You're in a situation where you're just trying to react and you're fairly reliant on the car's handling to get you out of the situation in one piece. If you've fitted cheap tyres you're going to be at a disadvantage to start with.
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Who ever said fit cheap tyres?
 
For those preaching against cheap tyres, i'll provide a 6 month review of the 2 Jinyu tyres I've just had fitted. Hopefully.
 
I always stick to the top brands when it comes to tyres as they are the only thing keeping you in contact with the road.

Never had a problem with the Michelin Pilot Sport 3's
 
Overexposed said:
Who ever said fit cheap tyres?
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OK, you're picking on me using the word "cheap"........

Obviously your standard ditchfinders i.e. makes no one has ever heard of and the likes of Wanli, Fullrun, Nangkang etc are poor in comparison to even the mid-range makes like Falken, Avon, BF Goodrich etc. Whilst the latter named tyres will still give adequate levels of grip in most conditions, it's likely that they will be outperformed by the likes of Bridgestone, Pirelli, Goodyear etc.

Now that's a broad sweeping generalisation and doesn't take into account the model of tyre. Each manufacturer will tend to have a low, mid and upper end tyre so I guess it's possible that a top of the range Avon may out perform a low end Pirelli.

If you fit out and out budgets you're asking for trouble really, mid-ranges are a good compromise (which I think we all pretty much agree on) but let's be honest, if money was no object we'd all be putting top of the range premium tyres on our cars as they're most likely to give us the best performance and safety.
 
Using tyres that are much wider than the manufacturer recommends can be dodgy! Due to the increased contact area the ground pressure is reduced and so is grip,especially when its wet-I found out the hard way.

eddie
 
Russ77 said:
OK, you're picking on me using the word "cheap"........

Obviously your standard ditchfinders i.e. makes no one has ever heard of and the likes of Wanli, Fullrun, Nangkang etc are poor in comparison to even the mid-range makes like Falken, Avon, BF Goodrich etc. Whilst the latter named tyres will still give adequate levels of grip in most conditions, it's likely that they will be outperformed by the likes of Bridgestone, Pirelli, Goodyear etc.

Now that's a broad sweeping generalisation and doesn't take into account the model of tyre. Each manufacturer will tend to have a low, mid and upper end tyre so I guess it's possible that a top of the range Avon may out perform a low end Pirelli.

If you fit out and out budgets you're asking for trouble really, mid-ranges are a good compromise (which I think we all pretty much agree on) but let's be honest, if money was no object we'd all be putting top of the range premium tyres on our cars as they're most likely to give us the best performance and safety.
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In total agreement with everything you said.
My gripe is with people who think fitting premium tyres give them some sort of god like ability to drive like a loon in any conditions and they'll be ok! Wrong the benefits they offer are marginal
 
Russ77 said:
OK, you're picking on me using the word "cheap"........

Obviously your standard ditchfinders i.e. makes no one has ever heard of and the likes of Wanli, Fullrun, Nangkang etc are poor in comparison to even the mid-range makes like Falken, Avon, BF Goodrich etc. Whilst the latter named tyres will still give adequate levels of grip in most conditions, it's likely that they will be outperformed by the likes of Bridgestone, Pirelli, Goodyear etc.

Now that's a broad sweeping generalisation and doesn't take into account the model of tyre. Each manufacturer will tend to have a low, mid and upper end tyre so I guess it's possible that a top of the range Avon may out perform a low end Pirelli.

If you fit out and out budgets you're asking for trouble really, mid-ranges are a good compromise (which I think we all pretty much agree on) but let's be honest, if money was no object we'd all be putting top of the range premium tyres on our cars as they're most likely to give us the best performance and safety.
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I'm almost in total agreement except for the differentiation between mid range and premium. I know it exists but I think this is a false differentiation created by the marketing people to sell tyres at a premium price but I don't think there is any evidence that the manufacturing process, tread design or compound technology is much different between any of these brands. The deals between the car manufacturers and the likes of Continental, Pirelli etc to supply tyres as original equipment are only there to maximize revenue from those people who assume that more expensive=better and just from this thread there seem to be plenty of those around.

I would guess the marketing and advertising budgets of a Continental or Pirelli are huge compared to someone like Vredestein and I wonder how much pressure that puts on other areas of the business of the big 5, such as outsourcing manufacture to the far East or cutting back on R&D. I do agree that looking at specific models of tyre is important but don't get blinded by the old "you get what you pay for" mantra. The marketeers love that!
 
Spuff said:
I'm almost in total agreement except for the differentiation between mid range and premium. I know it exists but I think this is a false differentiation created by the marketing people to sell tyres at a premium price but I don't think there is any evidence that the manufacturing process, tread design or compound technology is much different between any of these brands. The deals between the car manufacturers and the likes of Continental, Pirelli etc to supply tyres as original equipment are only there to maximize revenue from those people who assume that more expensive=better and just from this thread there seem to be plenty of those around.

I would guess the marketing and advertising budgets of a Continental or Pirelli are huge compared to someone like Vredestein and I wonder how much pressure that puts on other areas of the business of the big 5, such as outsourcing manufacture to the far East or cutting back on R&D. I do agree that looking at specific models of tyre is important but don't get blinded by the old "you get what you pay for" mantra. The marketeers love that!
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Agreed :)

I've just fitted Hankooks to my car, second set of them as I was impressed by them first time around. The grip in wet & dry is great but they do wear quite quickly (just under 12000 on my 2.0TDCi Focus). I guess the "premium" tyres probably don't perform much better but might last a little longer ...... that's if you believe the hype :LOL:

As it happens I paid £116 per tyre (225/40/18), it was about another £20 per tyre when you jumped to premium brands.
 
I have used various brands over the years - Pirelli, Goodyear, Dunlop, Bridgestone, Firestone, and the worst by a very long way, were Bridgestone Turanza, a couple of years ago on a Mazda 3. They lacked any grip in the wet, and were hard and jittery on anything but the best surfaces.
I used Pirelli P6000's for a long while - a tyre with a reputation as a "ditchfinder", and they were totally reliable and safe in all weathers.
Sometimes I think that scare stories start, largely as a result of people repeating what they have heard without experiencing something first hand.
 
Spuff said:
I would guess the marketing and advertising budgets of a Continental or Pirelli are huge compared to someone like Vredestein and I wonder how much pressure that puts on other areas of the business of the big 5, such as outsourcing manufacture to the far East or cutting back on R&D. I do agree that looking at specific models of tyre is important but don't get blinded by the old "you get what you pay for" mantra. The marketeers love that!
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I'm not entirely convinced, In my (small but growing) experience of the tyre industry the big companies do most of the R&D, they source western rubber making equipment (Michelin have told one of their suppliers if they move their production to the east they'll change supplier), they also tend to produce tyres locally for each region.

I've also heard some stories from people who have visited some of the budget tyres manufacturers, and they don't instil a level of confidence about purchasing the tyres they make.
 
Might have to look at Blackcirles. Need at least 2 245/40 ZR 19s. Ouch!
 
It's probably been mentioned but I will say it anyway. Be careful of what tyres you choose. Some are summer tyres which are shocking in the cold. I run toyo's on my nissan which are next to useless when the temps go down below ~10oc. I also wouldn't always go by the advise of people with a different car to yourself. Some tyres work better on some cars than others due to weight, driven wheels etc.

Goodyear f1 asymmetric's are meant to be a good tyre and they do an all seasons variant too.
 
Chriscooke said:
It's probably been mentioned but I will say it anyway. Be careful of what tyres you choose. Some are summer tyres which are shocking in the cold. I run toyo's on my nissan which are next to useless when the temps go down below ~10oc. I also wouldn't always go by the advise of people with a different car to yourself. Some tyres work better on some cars than others due to weight, driven wheels etc.

Goodyear f1 asymmetric's are meant to be a good tyre and they do an all seasons variant too.
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How often do temperatures fall below -10C? Seldom in the UK I'd have thought.
 
[quhe'
onomatopoeia said:
He used a tilde rather than a negative sign.
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So he is saying summer tyres don't perform as well below 10ºC? I'm sorry but that is bull or he has only had experience of really poor summer tyres. My Continental's are fantastic, no drop off in performance, hot, warm or cold, even subzero. if I were him I'd look to the condition of his shock absorbers. They may well be old, worn and less able to cope with the cold and reducing the level of grip.
 
nilagin said:
[quhe'

So he is saying summer tyres don't perform as well below 10ºC? I'm sorry but that is bull or he has only had experience of really poor summer tyres. My Continental's are fantastic, no drop off in performance, hot, warm or cold, even subzero. if I were him I'd look to the condition of his shock absorbers. They may well be old, worn and less able to cope with the cold and reducing the level of grip.
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I am afraid that a tyre compound which does not show any performance difference over such a wide range of temperatures simply does not exist.
 
JamesBryan said:
andy700 said:
I am afraid that a tyre compound which does not show any performance difference over such a wide range of temperatures simply does not exist.
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Magical tyres :LOL:
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Pah! Of course they exist! I use Nankangs and they're absolutely perfect on my 50bhp 998cc Mini! Recommend 'em! And the combination works far better than any over-tyred 300bhp garbage in snow - though that might be the 145 section ;)

See! I have tyres that are both CHEAP and MAGICAL!! :p
 
Yves Geza said:
Pah! Of course they exist! I use Nankangs and they're absolutely perfect on my 50bhp 998cc Mini! Recommend 'em! And the combination works far better than any over-tyred 300bhp garbage in snow - though that might be the 145 section ;)

See! I have tyres that are both CHEAP and MAGICAL!! :p
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The main reason for using Nankangs is they still make tyres for 10" and 12" wheels that you can find for sale and in stock. I have a set of 155R12 on wheels that might fit your Mini (assuming they would clear the radius arm, as they aren't Mini wheels. I seem to recall when we tried to put them on my friend's Hornet as an experiment there wasn't enough space inside the wheel arches).

They really aren't very good in grip terms as tyres go, but the choices in that size are extremely limited.
 
How much effing grip do you need? It's a road car that might get to about 85 downhill with the wind behind it I don't really need Yoko 048s or cut slicks! :p

If all the driving Gods here actually are exploring the limits of their tyres' adhesion ... they're probably driving their cars wrong! As I suggested on page 1, more steering feel is probably better for effective rapid progress than more grip! :D
 
Not being a driving god (my driving is all enthusiasm rather than ability :p ), I need all the help I can get from the vehicle :D
 
andy700 said:
I am afraid that a tyre compound which does not show any performance difference over such a wide range of temperatures simply does not exist.
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If pushed to their extremes I daresay a difference will show up. In day to day driving not so much. Cold or hot, my car will still quite safely navigate bends at tight bends 30-40mph where other motorists will take them at 20-25mph. I've never had the ESP kick in because one of the wheels has lost grip on cornering. Only time it kicks in is too much gas pulling away in the wet. Never had any trouble under braking neither.
 
TCR4x4 said:
If you are referring to the dual accidents on the a417 at birdlip last week, they didn't appear to be down to tyres or road conditions really.

One, a car managed to get the wrong side of the dividing barrier and hit a truck head on, and the other an elderly driver pulled out of the minor side road from birdlip village in front of a truck heading down towards the air balloon roundabout. Even the best tyres in the world wouldn't have prevented those. I believe there was a bit of fog for the first, the second was just a severe misjudgment of speed.
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Nope two near Chippenham, both down to road conditions
 
nilagin said:
[quhe'

So he is saying summer tyres don't perform as well below 10ºC? I'm sorry but that is bull or he has only had experience of really poor summer tyres. My Continental's are fantastic, no drop off in performance, hot, warm or cold, even subzero. if I were him I'd look to the condition of his shock absorbers. They may well be old, worn and less able to cope with the cold and reducing the level of grip.
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Bless! The suspension as a whole has done less than 5k miles so believe me when I say this is not the case.

If you don't believe that summer tyres are not as good in cold conditions why do most independent tyre tests suggest fitting winter tyres when the temps drop below 7 degrees?

The tyres I have are toyo t1r's which admittedly aren't the best tyre available but saying that they are fine when the temps aren't too cold and I'm putting 400bhp through them in a car the weighs less than 1.3 tonnes.

Which continentals are you running out of interest?
 
Chris, I'll save you the effort now. Nilagin is right and everyone else is wrong about summer tyres performing worse in the cold weather. He's always been fine on summer tyres in winter and naturally his personal experience applies to everyone.
 
I think this whole summer/winter tyre thing is relative.......

At temps of 7c and lower, specialist winter tyres will perform better than a "standard" tyre, especially M+S rated tyres that have tread patterns which should give you extra grip in mud/snow.

However, if you have reasonably decent "normal" tyres, you may not notice much difference.

I guess there would be a big difference between the very hard cheap and nasty "summer" tyres though :LOL:

I'm sure it's law in certain parts of Europe/Scandinavia to run winter tyres during the winter, I know conditions there are going to be a lot worse than what we have here but there must be some benifit of winter tyres if it's law in certain countries ;)
 
Do
nilagin said:
If pushed to their extremes I daresay a difference will show up. In day to day driving not so much. Cold or hot, my car will still quite safely navigate bends at tight bends 30-40mph where other motorists will take them at 20-25mph. I've never had the ESP kick in because one of the wheels has lost grip on cornering. Only time it kicks in is too much gas pulling away in the wet. Never had any trouble under braking neither.
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Doesn't need to be pushed to extremes. Temp was 3.5 degs this morning and my traction control activated in second gear under fairly gently acceleration. Mine are Continentals and grip is definitely worse in the cold. Fitted winters to my sons car as he is a new driver and they will help with his lack of experience.
 
Chriscooke said:
Bless! The suspension as a whole has done less than 5k miles so believe me when I say this is not the case.

If you don't believe that summer tyres are not as good in cold conditions why do most independent tyre tests suggest fitting winter tyres when the temps drop below 7 degrees?

The tyres I have are toyo t1r's which admittedly aren't the best tyre available but saying that they are fine when the temps aren't too cold and I'm putting 400bhp through them in a car the weighs less than 1.3 tonnes.

Which continentals are you running out of interest?
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Contact Sport 3's for 3 yrs, just fitted Sport 5's back in July and so far they are performing just as good.
 
RichardtheSane said:
Chris, I'll save you the effort now. Nilagin is right and everyone else is wrong about summer tyres performing worse in the cold weather. He's always been fine on summer tyres in winter and naturally his personal experience applies to everyone.
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33yrs of driving on nothing but summer tyres, I think I'd know if I was getting less grip in colder conditions.
 
I think the problem for those that have never used winter tyres (me included) is that you don't know any better. I guess you'd only really be able to give an objective opinion if you fitted winter tyres and tested them ;)

When it gets cold it can take a little while for my tyres to get up to temperature, I guess it's something you get accustomed to and adapt your driving style accordingly and up until the last 3-4 years there hasn't been enough significant snowfall to really justify spending £500-£600 on a winter set of wheels/tyres. The other thing is that this part of Essex is pretty flat too so I don't need to conquer many hills :LOL:

Whilst it might have been a prudent move to have snow tyres in recent winters, as I can work from home it's probably best I keep off the roads and leave them for the people that "have" to drive.
 
nilagin said:
33yrs of driving on nothing but summer tyres, I think I'd know if I was getting less grip in colder conditions.
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Whatever works for you... but your continued insistance that whatever works for you must work for everyone is what I take issue with.

It is a fact that winter tyres offer better grip where you need it when the weather gets cold than summer tyres do - assuming you use comparable quality tyres. You may never have experienced the difference but that doesn't change the fact there is one.
 
Chriscooke said:
You'd of thought so but clearly you don't ;)
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RichardtheSane said:
Whatever works for you... but your continued insistance that whatever works for you must work for everyone is what I take issue with.

It is a fact that winter tyres offer better grip where you need it when the weather gets cold than summer tyres do - assuming you use comparable quality tyres. You may never have experienced the difference but that doesn't change the fact there is one.
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The fact that car can handle bends at the same speed winter or summer which is faster than average cars would even attempt in summer and still no loss of traction where the esp would normally kick in if there was a drop in grip, is testament to the fact that they perform just as well. I haven't said they will work for everyone, they should but not everyone drives the same. Not everyone is sympathetic to their tyres or brakes for example and have to replace them more frequently than others.
 
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