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Carlo
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Just thought i would post a photo of my studio layout.

Previously its was all based around a white background, but decided i wanted to move away from this and the nightmares caused by lighting it perfect, to allow me to offer more choice to the client.

This is one of the end of studio.


photo by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr
 
OK then, I'll comment...:)

Looking good, and it's good to see that you're now dropping the white backgrounds for now.
But I hope that you're not thinking that having a massive softbox each side of your subjects is a good starting point?
 
oh Garry!!!

yeah had enough of white, still offering it but on smaller scale.

whats the issue with the softboxes? seemed to be lighting okay
 
oh Garry!!!

yeah had enough of white, still offering it but on smaller scale.

whats the issue with the softboxes? seemed to be lighting okay

Well, it would be OK if you were an event photographer who had to use exactly the same lighting for hundreds of shots, but you're not.

Lighting is about creating and controlling shadows, if you use the lights as set up, they will destroy shadows, destroy the features and character of your subjects and make everyone look fat.

I'm a bit concerned that you haven't got that yet TBH, I feel that I must have failed on the course that I ran and that you attended.
 
They are just set up as an example but was planning on using them in similar positions.

with one set up i was getting nice shadows. the second was just a bit of fill and with tests shots they appeared okay.

the course was good, and always try to refer back to what you were saying
 
Lighting is about creating and controlling shadows, if you use the lights as set up, they will destroy shadows, destroy the features and character of your subjects and make everyone look fat.

I'm a bit concerned that you haven't got that yet TBH, I feel that I must have failed on the course that I ran and that you attended.



Really Garry?

I fail to see how this can be right?

Not that I'm picking a fight here or anything but softboxes as shown can be used to great nice soft light, with depth and shadow.

As a portait photographer shooting 30+ sittings a week we need a set up that can be easily turned round, adapted to create more dramatic lighting when required and give us the look to our photos that I want.

8388553645_75b7a2bfc6_c.jpg



A 90cm octa softboc camer right. 140 octa softbox camera left.....

All lencarta as it happens. ;)
 
Really Garry?

I fail to see how this can be right?

Not that I'm picking a fight here or anything but softboxes as shown can be used to great nice soft light, with depth and shadow.

As a portait photographer shooting 30+ sittings a week we need a set up that can be easily turned round, adapted to create more dramatic lighting when required and give us the look to our photos that I want.

A 90cm octa softboc camer right. 140 octa softbox camera left.....

All lencarta as it happens. ;)
As long as you're happy with that result, that's all that matters. And I'm not saying that it should never be used, Event photographers use it because it's all that they can realistically do when they're busy.

But think about it...
Where does light come from normally? The sky outdoors and overhead room lighting indoors - so light that comes from other directions, although not necessarily wrong, tends to look wrong.

And how many suns do we have on our planet? One. So if you introduce two suns it looks odd.

And if you light the whole of the subject, i.e. both sides of the face, you fatten the face. That isn't necessarily wrong, but it isn't a good starting point.

My personal starting point (with any subject) is to start off with no lights on the studio floor at all.

Then I think about the effect I want to create (sexy, sophisticated, friendly, wise, aggressive, innocent etc) and decide which type of lighting tool will do the job, and where it should go. Often, it will go high up (natural lighting position) and directly in front of where the model is facing. This produces shadows that flatter the face and emphasise cheekbones (if that is what is required)

I then see whether there are any problems, and if necessary I will add a reflector, another light or maybe a lot of extra lights, one at a time, building up the image as I go.

This shot is an example of a single light source, in this case a softbox.
5-144x300.jpg

I took it during a talk I gave at the TP convention last year. It's as simple as it comes, the background was unlit and was a breezeblock wall. The studio was a stage. The light was a 95cm octa softbox.

This shot is somewhere near the opposite end of the spectrum. The subject was a highly intelligent man, a psychoanalyst. The idea here was to show his character rather than his looks.
philosopher.jpg

Here's what the photographer said about it, on this page.

Here’s my first example, to show you very clearly what I mean. The man shown in this picture was a famous psychoanalyst, and the main qualities of a psychoanalyst are their perspicacity and the capacity to hear and understand his or her patients.The pose I decided to go for, in this case, was meant to show at the same time his ear – the ear that listens to patients – and his eyes, in such a way that you’d feel at first glance, that this man is always paying attention to what people have to say. Both the ear and the eyes needed therefore to be turned to the viewer – to the camera – and I thought my lighting emphasis should be on this ear and his very charismatic eyes. This, in turn, meant that I needed two opposite light sources, one from the left highlighting the hair and drawing therefore the contour and volume of his ear, and another light at right to take care of eyes, nose and lips.

To prevent the skin from being over-exposed, and to ensure that shadows wouldn’t be strong on his facial features, it seemed logical to use a diffused main light source, such as a softbox. But to still keep some soft shadows, which would help emphasizing his skin and beard textures, I decided, that the softbox should be placed a little higher than his face, and a little more towards the back, rather than by the side of the camera or suchlike. That way, the main light wouldn’t be lighting the cheek, and would cast gentle shadows under the nose, eyes and lips, revealing his wonderful skin textures as well. At left, I then placed a Fresnel spotlight, used as an effect light to highlight his hair and to cast some shine and hard shadows on his cheek.
English isn't his 1st language, but I think he is clear enough.

Now, I know Marc very well, he works exactly as I do, building up the image, light by light and shadow by shadow until he is happy satisfied.Not happy because he is an artist and French:)

On the lighting course I mentioned, I distinctly remember telling Carlo that a light each side is, in most situations, absolutely the worst choice. Hence my disappointment.
 
Blimey Garry. I am also not wanting to pick a fight. This is an interesting topic for all of us, and I'm interested in your experienced view, but I am surprised how set in stone your view seems to be.
Lighting is about creating and controlling shadows, if you use the lights as set up, they will destroy shadows, destroy the features and character of your subjects and make everyone look fat.
Well if the lights were equal power (which I'm sure they're not), the subjects would be flat.

But think about it...
Where does light come from normally? The sky outdoors and overhead room lighting indoors - so light that comes from other directions, although not necessarily wrong, tends to look wrong.

And how many suns do we have on our planet? One. So if you introduce two suns it looks odd.
But that's not true Garry. When overcast, our natural light source is such a massive softbox that there are few shadows. And there are walls outside bouncing light around. And when indoors in the daytime, with windows all around us, we get soft light with few shadows. And not one room in our home has a single light source in it at night. To be honest, most of the time I see people in the world, they do not have lighting anything like the photos you've posted. That doesn't mean the photos you've posted aren't good, but I don't see them as the way we always see people.

Also, I remember a comment from a studio photographer in the US - he had a main light, hair light, 2 accent lights, and a reflector as a fill. He said people don't buy shadows, so I don't shoot them. I want them to buy all my photos. Now obviously life would be dull without photos like the ones you've posted, but for family shots, the clients don't always want deep shadows (and there are in-between options before getting a totally flat image).

What do you think Garry, is that all wrong :)
 
No, it isn't wrong, but I disagree with most of it... I think.

But it doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, or whether most people agree with you, with me or if they have some other view.

What matters is that this is a lighting forum, it's supposed to be about lighting - but mostly it's about equipment. Many of the questions about equipment are interesting, and many of the answers are useful, but equipment is nothing more than a tool - it has its place but its place in the pecking order is lower than an understanding of light, creativity and technical skill.

So, I prefer to talk about light, and how we use it. If doing that makes people think, then that has to be a good thing, whether or not they agree with me.
But that's not true Garry. When overcast, our natural light source is such a massive softbox that there are few shadows.
But the light is still coming very much from above. Obviously there can be some reflected light too, but the overall effect is still from above.
And not one room in our home has a single light source in it at night.
Maybe not, but I'm willing to bet that that most of your light sources are above head height. And if they're not, that's unusual.
To be honest, most of the time I see people in the world, they do not have lighting anything like the photos you've posted.
You know something (and I'm leaving myself wide open here):) one of my hobbies is looking at women. By the time they reach puberty, most of them have learned what it takes men so long to realise that most of us can't use the information... That it's big lips and big eyes that men look at. That's why they make their eyes look bigger and make their lips look fuller. The 3rd most important facial characteristic is high cheekbones. Women paint on their cheekbones to emphasise them, and the makeup, skillfully applied to good features, produces almost exactly the same effect as as having a single light directly in front of the face.
Also, I remember a comment from a studio photographer in the US - he had a main light, hair light, 2 accent lights, and a reflector as a fill. He said people don't buy shadows, so I don't shoot them.
I think that in terms of skill and creativity, most British photographers can learn as much about lighting from the most American photographers as most British soldiers can learn about fighting from the Italians.
I want them to buy all my photos.
Please don't confuse the success of bland products with quality products. More bland family cars are sold than high performance sports cars.
Photos like this are specific to a purpose; it is above good, but it is an extreme example of what I was describing, it's a Ferrari that really isn't suitable for the school run. But, according to your American source, it's a bad shot...
jewellery.jpg


Here is a much softer shot, the shadows are far less obvious. Again, it's excellent. And again, the light is frontal and high.
single_softbox.jpg

There is a fill in this one, often there is, but the fill is low enough not to destroy the all important shadows.
What about this one?
Here, the light from the beauty dish isn't quite as high, but again it's frontal (frontal in this case means directly in front of where she is looking, I asked her to look at the top of the beauty dish)
beautynew.jpg
Again, it's about creating shadows. The most important thing in lighting is the bits that aren't lit, they transfer attention to the bits that are lit.
If you think the lighting on some of these shots is strong, wait until you see the next issue of the Lencarta catalogue:)
 
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So, I prefer to talk about light, and how we use it. If doing that makes people think, then that has to be a good thing, whether or not they agree with me.
Definitely.

But the light is still coming very much from above. Obviously there can be some reflected light too, but the overall effect is still from above.
Yes, but that can happen with his two softboxes.

one of my hobbies is looking at women
:cool:

By the time they reach puberty, most of them have learned what it takes men so long to realise that most of us can't use the information...
That it's big lips and big eyes that men look at.
Can't use the information :thinking: What would you have done with this information were you still a teenager? Anyway - so light the subject to emphasise their lips, eyes, cheeks etc - but you're talking about pretty ladies, not 3 year olds (like the chap in red).

I think that in terms of skill and creativity, most British photographers can learn as much about lighting from the most American photographers as most British soldiers can learn about fighting from the Italians.
Ouch. But does the OP want to become a poor, but talented artist, or does he want to make a lot of money? The photographer I'm talking about does a lot of (decent, even if not award winning) portraits, and makes a lot of money.

Please don't confuse the success of bland products with quality products. More bland family cars are sold than high performance sports cars.
If you're on a mission to teach TP readers how to take performance sports car photos, can you also teach them to get large numbers through the door and make a lot of money?

it's a Ferrari that really isn't suitable for the school run. But, according to your American source, it's a bad shot...
We can hardly say what he thinks of one shot based on a comment he made about a particular demographic he was shooting :D And that lady isn't hidden by shadows, there are just some strong shadows in places.

Here is a much softer shot, the shadows are far less obvious. Again, it's excellent. And again, the light is frontal and high.
Er, no it isn't. That light is to the left, and not that high. I doubt the bottom of the light is above her eyes (and if it was you lighting it, I say your memory has gone :D ). And her face isn't deep in shadow, I'm sure she'd love to buy that if she was a paying customer.

If you think the lighting on some of these shots is strong
I don't, not at all. But the lighting on those subjects isn't as suitable for family shots. Perhaps you can post examples of family shots, where you can rattle through session after session, an hour at a time (which I guess is what Stevie- has to do)?
 
We can argue about detail, and perceptions of what is or isn't 'good' all day.
But all that I'm really trying to do here is to stimulate thought...

I want people to THINK about how they light, and why. In my view, far too many people just set up a standard lighting setup that produces enough quantity of light to give them f/8 or whatever, they stick the lights in places that aren't in their way and they're happy if they produce shadow free, flat lighting.

Evidence of this is the number of threads on studio setups, the number of questions about where to put lights and the popularity of those 2-dimensional lighting diagrams that people think work in 3 dimensions...

I am NOT saying that I'm right, or that Rembrandt was right, or that Stevie is wrong. What I AM saying is that most people look better in light that comes more or less from above, it doesn't matter whether it's a beautiful woman or a 3 year old, it works because the light direction is natural. Obviously, with a beautiful woman who also happens to be a fashion model who can pose, the lighting tends to be more extreme, but the principle is the same.

What is studio lighting anyway? It's the outdoors brought indoors, where it is under our control. In the studio, we can create literally any lighting conditions that exist outdoors, regardless of weather, the position of the sun or anything else. The massive benefit of studio photography is our ability to do that, and IMO it makes sense, a lot of the time, simply to bring the outdoors indoors but it doesn't mean that the light needs to look unnatural.

Maybe one of the problems is the route that people take when they go into lighting. If they start off using the built in flash they will be disappointed. Typically, they then get themselves a hotshoe flashgun and either bounce it off the ceiling or stick it on a stand with an umbrella - suddenly, they have soft light and they think it's great. Sadly, many never progress beyond that point and they believe that their earlier results looked amateur and their current, soft light shots look professional - therefore, "Soft light good, hard light bad"

It's far too simplistic of course, just as Animal Farm's "4 legs good 2 legs bad" was far too simplistic a mantra for the real world.

In fact, most of the photographers who continue to learn beyond this point end up pushing the limits, finding out just how much contrast their medium (film or digital) can cope with in terms of contrast, putting their own skills to the test and using harder and harder lighting, constantly experimenting with light positioning and different light shaping tools - which doesn't mean of course that soft, flat lighting is always wrong.

I'm not talking about commercial considerations here. Most of us like to have money in our back pocket and I'm not suggesting that we should all be starving artists. And yes, those of us who do it for a living have to listen to Randolph Hearst and give the people what they want.

In commercial terms, there is nothing wrong with playing safe and producing something that is less than it can be but affordable and popular - I have often wandered into a MacDonalds when I've been in a country where I have language problems or where I feel much safer ordering known products than ordering authentic local dishes - but, when I have a local interpreter with me, I still prefer the local food and am happy to pay for it.
 
We can argue about detail, and perceptions of what is or isn't 'good' all day.
But all that I'm really trying to do here is to stimulate thought...

I agree with alot of what you're saying....

I want people to THINK about how they light, and why. In my view, far too many people just set up a standard lighting setup that produces enough quantity of light to give them f/8 or whatever, they stick the lights in places that aren't in their way and they're happy if they produce shadow free, flat lighting.

Yes the forum is chock full of example of this including some of my/our own work. (I'll include examples of our stuff here as I know how it was lit, what with and why)

The lighting here is flat uninspired and dull. 'Safe' would be an appropriate term. We no longer shoot like this as its just rubbish - however we use the same equipment.
7302935876_fe7789708c_c.jpg



Again pretty flat but you can see the lights creeping higher as you rightly pointed out light generally comes from above and just looks 'right' to us homo sapiens
7172346327_54f69c7eca_c.jpg


Same lights, same soft boxes positioned and weighted differently. I could have used a beauty dish but I don't have one.
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I am NOT saying that I'm right, or that Rembrandt was right, or that Stevie is wrong. What I AM saying is that most people look better in light that comes more or less from above, it doesn't matter whether it's a beautiful woman or a 3 year old, it works because the light direction is natural. Obviously, with a beautiful woman who also happens to be a fashion model who can pose, the lighting tends to be more extreme, but the principle is the same.

Again right but I think you're taking the image at the top of this post as a literal representation of how the OP sets his lights up to shoot. I'm pretty sure this will not be the case.

As you'll well know tolerances between shooting models and toddlers are very different and the lighting set up needs to reflect this.

What is studio lighting anyway? It's the outdoors brought indoors, where it is under our control. In the studio, we can create literally any lighting conditions that exist outdoors, regardless of weather, the position of the sun or anything else. The massive benefit of studio photography is our ability to do that, and IMO it makes sense, a lot of the time, simply to bring the outdoors indoors but it doesn't mean that the light needs to look unnatural.

Pass - The example beauty dish shot doesn't say 'natural' to me. I understand that may not have been the point of that shot/shoot but neither do I find it flattering. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Maybe one of the problems is the route that people take when they go into lighting. If they start off using the built in flash they will be disappointed. Typically, they then get themselves a hotshoe flashgun and either bounce it off the ceiling or stick it on a stand with an umbrella - suddenly, they have soft light and they think it's great. Sadly, many never progress beyond that point and they believe that their earlier results looked amateur and their current, soft light shots look professional - therefore, "Soft light good, hard light bad"


In fact, most of the photographers who continue to learn beyond this point end up pushing the limits, finding out just how much contrast their medium (film or digital) can cope with in terms of contrast, putting their own skills to the test and using harder and harder lighting, constantly experimenting with light positioning and different light shaping tools - which doesn't mean of course that soft, flat lighting is always wrong.

Your original reply and subsequent posts can over very scathing of the lighting set-ups being described. Which isn't all that fair Just because the lighting has been distilled to that doesn't mean that everyone shooting that style is incapable, or hasn't thought of shooting, anything else. I am a commercial photographer in the sense that I am taking pictures people in order to sell the images back to them. Soft light often fits the bill for this.

Its horses for courses at the end of the day. You couldn't shoot this with the set up above but you could get a equally nice shot.

SOOC
8413013861_96831b565f_c.jpg
 
I think that in terms of skill and creativity, most British photographers can learn as much about lighting from the most American photographers as most British soldiers can learn about fighting from the Italians.

As an ex-soldier I can so relate to this ....:D

Well done - I'm enjoying this thread & its nice to see different opinions / methods to the same ends.

I guess in photography you are judged on the end result & not the way to get there.
 
Interesting debate. Garry makes some very good points, but overall I think I'm with Trig and Stevie.

Lighting is certainly about shadows, but it's also about highlights and it's the two together that show shape (and texture). You need a bit a bit of both, but with contemporary/commercial/popular portraiture, it's usually less of the shadows - though they must always be there, as indeed they are with Stevie's example.

For me, yes light from above the eye line, with a catchlight, and only one main key light if only because conflicting shadows and multiple catchlights just look a mess. Then usually quite soft light, and a white reflector for fill-in rather than another fill-in light.

That's how I generally like it to look, for family-type portraits and groups, but also harder light and strong shadows are much more difficult to manage. Not so much in setting up, but strong shadows give the subject very little room to move. Just turning the head a couple of inches and the nose shadows goes right across the face, turn the other way and it gets lost completely. My subjects are not static, often far from it.

Harder light and stronger shadows, even if desirable, are impossible in practise for family shoots if, like me, the over-riding considerations are pose, expression and timing. Those are the things IMHO that make good portraits.
 
I can be pretty scathing about people who won't learn, or who think that just having lights is enough, but I have absolutely no problem with people who make informed choices that are different to the choices that I make.

And I don't blame people for getting confused about lighting. There are umpteen videos on YouTube, web articles on lighting, magazine articles and books that contain absolutely no useful information and which mislead people.

I also have concerns about some of the lighting courses that people attend - I strongly suspect that there are a few people who run courses simply because they can't hack it as photographers. I sometimes describe these people as lost sheep masquerading as sheepdogs:)

If I come over as opinionated and arrogant that's probably because I believe in calling a spade a spade - but it doesn't make me wrong, just as it doesn't make me right:)

I don't have a problem with the OP using his lights in the way that he does, that's his choice. The only problem I have is that I'm wondering whether I did a bad job on the lighting course that he attended.

but also harder light and strong shadows are much more difficult to manage. Not so much in setting up, but strong shadows give the subject very little room to move. Just turning the head a couple of inches and the nose shadows goes right across the face, turn the other way and it gets lost completely. My subjects are not static, often far from it.
Agreed. And I didn't say that it was easy, or always the right way of doing things. And it doesn't become any easier if the model is inexperienced.

ALL that I'm trying to do here is to get people thinking about light, so that they can make informed choices.
 
I can be pretty scathing about people who won't learn, or who think that just having lights is enough, but I have absolutely no problem with people who make informed choices that are different to the choices that I make.

And I don't blame people for getting confused about lighting. There are umpteen videos on YouTube, web articles on lighting, magazine articles and books that contain absolutely no useful information and which mislead people.

I also have concerns about some of the lighting courses that people attend - I strongly suspect that there are a few people who run courses simply because they can't hack it as photographers. I sometimes describe these people as lost sheep masquerading as sheepdogs:)

If I come over as opinionated and arrogant that's probably because I believe in calling a spade a spade - but it doesn't make me wrong, just as it doesn't make me right:)

I don't have a problem with the OP using his lights in the way that he does, that's his choice. The only problem I have is that I'm wondering whether I did a bad job on the lighting course that he attended.

Agreed. And I didn't say that it was easy, or always the right way of doing things. And it doesn't become any easier if the model is inexperienced.

ALL that I'm trying to do here is to get people thinking about light, so that they can make informed choices.

And it's a very good debate, raising some fundamental questions that don't get asked very often these days where big softboxes rule, often used with little thought or understanding.

The point about inexperienced models is an important one. My models are mostly not experienced at all - kids, mums and dads. With yongsters especially, it's not about giving them direction, but coaxing and cajoling and sometimes a small prayer helps. Then when/if it begins to work, I shoot very fast indeed as with most two year-olds you don't get a second chance.

It's amazing how images only a couple of seconds apart can look so different. That's one of the reasons I don't like speedlites for portraits, recycle times often around 4-5 seconds in reality, plus no modelling lamp. Long recycle is very frustrating and it makes you look like an amateur, or often the flash will actually fire early but is way down on power and the shot is lost. Hopeless IMHO.

If I was a fashion photographer, or glamour or whatever with models that could take direction (and the best ones do a lot of the work for you) then my lighting would be very different and rather stronger on the shadows front. Not always I guess, and it's a very long time since I've done any of that, but when you have total control, there are so many more options.
 
That's how I generally like it to look, for family-type portraits and groups, but also harder light and strong shadows are much more difficult to manage. Not so much in setting up, but strong shadows give the subject very little room to move. Just turning the head a couple of inches and the nose shadows goes right across the face, turn the other way and it gets lost completely. My subjects are not static, often far from it.

Harder light and stronger shadows, even if desirable, are impossible in practise for family shoots if, like me, the over-riding considerations are pose, expression and timing. Those are the things IMHO that make good portraits.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. With a teenager or above that wants their photo taken, and wants to take the time with you to get the pose right, you can be a lot more adventurous.

I don't have a problem with the OP using his lights in the way that he does, that's his choice. The only problem I have is that I'm wondering whether I did a bad job on the lighting course that he attended.
Ouch again. If lighting that way makes you feel you did a bad job on the course, you obviously think there's a much better way. So, let's assume that when the OP's subject is in place, they raise both lights to the appropriate height for the height of the subject, and that one is a key light (perhaps moved a little closer once the subject is in place) and the fill light is set fairly low, just to remove some of the darker shadows. - Please give some examples of a better way or lighting a pair of 4 year olds that won't stay still.
 
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As you can see from our images that Stevie has posted we like shadow but one thing to consider about shooting 'commercial family portraits' is that your average 40 yo mum/dad doesn't have skin like a baby's bottom and no bags under their eyes.

Shoot with too much 'interesting', edgy, hard light and all you achieve is a very unflattering image which makes these people look old and tired, not a recipe for making money!

Basically we know, and i'm assuming Carlo does to, what our brief is before we start shooting - big soft light with enough shadow to show shape, character and accommodate a restless 2yo!
 
A very interesting debate has broke out here.

The reason for posting the photo was that i was just happy with my new studio look as i had moved away from pure white backgrounds.

The kit in the photo was just positioned so i could take a quick iphone pic to post, no other reason.

The lights are not set up those positions for shoots, they are changed slightly.

Garrys course i found very useful and do refer back to what he says about starting with one light, which is what i do. I set the Key light followed by the a fill light , then other lights if required.

However the various comments have been interesting to read.
 
Great read ,,, good to see things from both ends ,,, as a beginner ,, i bought 1 light and one softbox to work at home,, as when in studio ,, its just to easy to have to many lights

interesting and a big learning curve ,, this thread is a must read
 
Come on Garry. We've all joined in this interesting discussion about lighting, and you've said how you are strongly against the idea of a key light on one side, with a fill on the other, but you still haven't responded to this:
Please give some examples of a better way of lighting a pair of 4 year olds that won't stay still.
For some clients, I'm sure we all agree with your advice of starting with your subject and thinking what sort of image you'd like to create, and adding one light at a time - but how can that be done with 30 (Stevie- 's figure) sets of families a week? Please provide some alternative (better) ways of lighting children.

Thanks
 
Come on Garry. We've all joined in this interesting discussion about lighting, and you've said how you are strongly against the idea of a key light on one side, with a fill on the other, but you still haven't responded to this:
For some clients, I'm sure we all agree with your advice of starting with your subject and thinking what sort of image you'd like to create, and adding one light at a time - but how can that be done with 30 (Stevie- 's figure) sets of families a week? Please provide some alternative (better) ways of lighting children.

Thanks

Mike, I'm not strongly against (or strongly for) any particular light direction - that would be nonsense.
What I have said is that a 'key' light on one side and a 'fill' light on the other isn't in fact a key and a fill light, it is two separate suns, and so always looks a bit odd. And, because that arrangement lights both sides of the face, it gives everyone a fat face. I have also said that there are only two possible places for a fill light. A true fill light is an on axis fill, where the light goes either above or below the camera but on axis to it (typically, a large light source behind the camera. The light from this lights all parts of the subject as seen by the camera..

The other type of fill light that works, and often better, is a fill that is on axis to the subject - that is often the same thing as an on axis fill, but isn't the same when the subject's face isn't pointing towards the camera. In that situation, the subject's face is pointing directly towards the fill light.

Back on topic... lighting a group of kids? Probably one light each side. It isn't 'good' lighting in the sense that it isn't flattering, but it works and is easy. An alternative, if there is enough space, is to have a very large softbox centrally and high, with a fill light central and low. This is more flattering and also cannot leave someone in shadow, unlike a light from the side - but it does require more space,
 
Mike, I'm not strongly against (or strongly for) any particular light direction
By considering you may have failed in your teachings, it feels like you are fairly strongly against the set-up show in the OP, but it doesn't matter.

What I have said is that a 'key' light on one side and a 'fill' light on the other isn't in fact a key and a fill light, it is two separate suns, and so always looks a bit odd. And, because that arrangement lights both sides of the face, it gives everyone a fat face.
I'm interested to learn here if I'm getting this wrong, but doesn't that depend on the power of the fill light? Sure, if it's as much as half the key light, it's going to flatten the image a fair amount, and look like a second sun, but if it's a quarter of the key then it's not really going to create shape of its own, isn't it just going to lift the shadows a little?

I have also said that there are only two possible places for a fill light. A true fill light is an on axis fill, where the light goes either above or below the camera but on axis to it (typically, a large light source behind the camera. The light from this lights all parts of the subject as seen by the camera..
Surely the difference from this and what the OP has, is that the fill light also falls on more areas that the key light, which would make a difference if the fill light was bright, but wouldn't be very noticeable if it was quite dim?

Back on topic... lighting a group of kids? Probably one light each side.
Like the OP has, or completely to the side?

I'm willing to be An alternative, if there is enough space, is to have a very large softbox centrally and high, with a fill light central and low. This is more flattering and also cannot leave someone in shadow, unlike a light from the side - but it does require more space,
Yes I like this.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
I'm interested to learn here if I'm getting this wrong, but doesn't that depend on the power of the fill light? Sure, if it's as much as half the key light, it's going to flatten the image a fair amount, and look like a second sun, but if it's a quarter of the key then it's not really going to create shape of its own, isn't it just going to lift the shadows a little?
It's a matter of degree. Obviously if there are 2 lights of equal power from different directions then the lighting is even flatter and everyone has an even fatter face than if the light is just from one direction, but even if the second light is turned down low, it will still broaden the face.
Like the OP has, or completely to the side?
What I had in mind is something like 45 degrees, for a group of kids, much as event photographers do.

For shots of a single person, rim lighting (light at 90 degrees or more to the subject) can work beautifully, but not for groups, where one person would put another into shadow.

As I keep saying, I don't advocate any particular style of lighting. All that I'm trying to do is to get people to think about what they do and why, and to light for a specific subject and a specific result, rather than just think "I'll use my usual lighting setup, it's easy and this is what my photography magazine says I should do":)
 
It's a matter of degree. Obviously if there are 2 lights of equal power from different directions then the lighting is even flatter and everyone has an even fatter face than if the light is just from one direction, but even if the second light is turned down low, it will still broaden the face.
Definitely, but broad faces don't seem to be such a problem for children, they're not trying to look like sexy glamour models. It's more the total flatness I'd personally want to avoid.

What I had in mind is something like 45 degrees, for a group of kids, much as event photographers do.
So like the OP - but I appreciate you're talking about a group, where it's more challenging - and for a group I prefer your other suggestion of central lighting, otherwise they subjects are going to have different light depending on where they sit.

For shots of a single person, rim lighting (light at 90 degrees or more to the subject) can work beautifully, but not for groups, where one person would put another into shadow.
More details please :) What sort of modifier, and what for fill?

As I keep saying, I don't advocate any particular style of lighting.
No, like I say, I'm sure we all understand the approach to lighting a subject on merit, but I just don't believe that applies as much to 4 year olds, where the client often likes well lit shots (I don't mean flat) showing good expressions/personality, rather than alternative artistic shots (obviously there are clients that want alternative options, but they're in the minority).

All that I'm trying to do is to get people to think about what they do and why, and to light for a specific subject and a specific result, rather than just think "I'll use my usual lighting setup, it's easy and this is what my photography magazine says I should do":)
Understood, but it's not always possible drastically change lighting set-ups, either due to session time limitations, or due to the clients' willingness to wait (children).
 
Understood, but it's not always possible drastically change lighting set-ups, either due to session time limitations, or due to the clients' willingness to wait (children).
I understand that perfectly, and I'm not suggesting that we should use the same lighting for 4 year olds as for cosmetics models - just that we should think about what type of lighting works best for a given subject and a given requirement.
More details please What sort of modifier, and what for fill?
Whatever works. For my art nudes, it's often a strip softbox fitted with a honeycomb, each side and behind.
For a 'punchy' headshot, including corporate headshots, it's often a softbox each side, facing forward just a bit, and with a reflector under the camera to provide a bit of fill - but as always, it depends on the result I want to achieve and how I want to portray that person.
 
Whatever works. For my art nudes, it's often a strip softbox fitted with a honeycomb, each side and behind.
For a 'punchy' headshot, including corporate headshots, it's often a softbox each side, facing forward just a bit, and with a reflector under the camera to provide a bit of fill
Sorry to be a pain, but what about for children (eg, you have an average family over and as well as taking a family shot, you're also taking shots of each child - you have time to move lights, but not to keep the children still while subtly sculpting shadows around their face)?

And I'm not asking so everyone can copy a technique, but for an alternative, to see where you're coming from vs the lighting (for example) Stevie- is using in a busy studio.

Thanks
 
This shot (not taken by me) is an example of a strip softbox behind, facing forward and with a honeycomb, each side
IMG_5074_copy.jpg

You can see the typical lighting on each edge, with much of the rest in shadow. It's particularly useful for defining shape, in this case of course it's a shape that is easily identifiable - but for shapes that are less obvious/well known a gentle fill is often needed too.
This shot used basically the same technique but without honeycombs on the softboxes, simply because I didn't have any at the time - still do-able but more difficult
blackisbeautiful.jpg

This technique may be a bit 'strong' for some tastes when photographing children, but with the softboxes distant and pretty well at 90 degrees to the subject (in the examples above they were pointing forwards as well as sideways) and with a gentle on axis fill to provide frontal detail, as in this shot (not mine) it can work. Maybe there is a tad more fill than I would personally have used in this shot, but not enough to destroy the muscle detail.
5610492957_137327ccd2_b.jpg

Sorry that they're all nudes, it's all that I can find quickly.

The advantage of this technique for single subjects is that, if the softboxes are far enough away, it doesn't matter much if the subject moves around a fair bit. The Inverse Square Law obviously means that one side will be lit more than the other if the subject isn't central, but the greater the distance involved, the less the effect.
 
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