Cheap Equipment / Grey Imports?

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Andrew
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Hi Everyone,

I'm in the market for a new 5d MK iv and lenses. I notice that the RRP is around 3K GBP but there are a few sellers on eBay advertising UK stock at 2.4K GBP. I know very little about these types of suppliers whom all claim to hold UK stock in their warehouses as I've always bought from big UK retailers in the past. If the truth be known, the MK iv is over my budget by the time I get the lenses, etc.. so I am keen to get a good deal to reduce the pain of forking out top money. I suppose what I am looking or is any advice from experienced people who know if these items are legit, genuine, come with risk, quality issues, etc...

Many Thanks

Andrew
 
Hi Andrew,

Not sure about eBay, but if you are looking at grey have a look at Panamoz.

Not checked their price for the camera you want but if you search the forum you will find all good reviews of service.

Kev
 
I have seen good reports about and know of in the past folk who have used HDEW and they list it at £2649
 
Bought my last body from Panamoz, never had an issue with it- when I thought I had they were very receptive and helpful to to me re their warranty.
Save yourself some money.
 
Just sold a D750 that I bought from Panamoz and they have transfered the remaining 14 months warranty to the new owner. Their after sales service is excellent.
I ordered an Oympus OMD Em1ii with two Pro lenses on Wednesday and I had them by 5pm on Friday too.
 
Ive not used panamoz but Ive used portus digital a number of times, and had a lens from HDEW and had good service each time, good communications and info, although Ive yet to put their warranties to the test
 
I brought my 80D from Panamoz last april, and just received my 5Dmkiv from them last week. Very good service and they seem to be cheaper than most of the other big name HK retaliates (i include HDEW in that).
I ordered the 5D late monday evening and it arrived before lunchtime Thursday. Came with full English manual and UK plug (no adaptors like some places send you).

Considering Panamoz and HDEW offer 3 years UK warranty i have no issues ordering form them.

My first experience with Panamoz was a Tamron 24-70 a few years ago. It stopped working about 2 months in. I contacted Panamoz and they paid for it to go back to a London based address, and immediately issued a full refund.
 
Thanks everyone, your experiences certainly give me confidence in buying from one of these outlets. It was actually Panamoz I had seen the Mk iv but interesting to hear about HDEW, I will take a look.

Thanks again!...
 
UPDATE

I decided to give Panamoz a try and order the gear through them, unfortunately, the UK phone number they advertise on the website doesn't work. I tried it several times each day of this week to ask a couple of questions and place the order. When called; you are sent straight to a recorded message stating that they are busy and to call back or enquire via the website. It's clear that Panamoz don't operate via the telephone and are purely an online order portal. I don't have a problem with this in principal, my concern is if I have an issue with the equipment, there is literally nobody to speak to!

They have since replied to my email asking why they don't answer the phones apologizing and requesting that I email them any questions. Maybe I'm old fashioned but personally if I am experiencing difficulty I want to know that there is somebody at hand to assist who I can talk to.

Anyone had experiences? Maybe there is a different number supplied purely for aftersales which works?
 
Panamoz have a great rep and apparently are very quick to sort any issues. My D500 came from them a month a go and saved me abour £400 odd.....
 
Good to know guys, maybe I'll just place the order straight through the website. My questions was really if they would deliver to my work address so I didn't miss the parcel. I know a lot of companies only deliver to the house which the card used to pay is registered. However, I am now off on leave all next week so if I order tomorrow then I may get it when I'm at home! Problem then is how I sneak it in without the other half finding out and asking the standard question of "How much did all that cost?" :LOL:
 
Good to know guys, maybe I'll just place the order straight through the website. My questions was really if they would deliver to my work address so I didn't miss the parcel. I know a lot of companies only deliver to the house which the card used to pay is registered. However, I am now off on leave all next week so if I order tomorrow then I may get it when I'm at home! Problem then is how I sneak it in without the other half finding out and asking the standard question of "How much did all that cost?" :LOL:

They do deliver to work addresses. For the very reason you mention i always get my gear sent to work. Ive got so many boxes at work they have their own cupboard lol.
 
Yeah, mine came to work address too.
What swung it Panamoz way for me was being able to use Paypal as another layer of protection tbh.....
 
At the end of the day the only way these companies can sell at the prices they do is by avoiding UK import duty and tax, this has a double effect as not only does it cost the tax man and hence you in the long run as the missing taxes have to be found somewhere but the increasing use of such companies is not only putting UK camera shop jobs at risk but also have a bad knock on effect in the secondhand market, pushing down the value of genuine UK bought goods.
While we're at it lets make no bones about it, these companies are shady, your warranty is only with them, if they get put out of business you have no warranty at all and you also run the risk that the manufacturer won't work on what is in effect an illegal import.
Its time these companies where shut down by the authorities tightening up on checking the real value of parcels coming into the UK, then our home grown photography retailers might stand a chance of surviving.
 
If the sale of 'grey imports' was stopped, would this then encourage UK importers/agents to increase their prices due to reduced competition from alternative sources? If so, wouldn't this then encourage UK residents to buy when they were abroad on business or holiday and either pay the VAT and duty at customs, or try to bring the item back in their camera bags or suitcases after throwing away the packaging and pretending it was what they'd taken out with them? Don't get me wrong, I'm not for one minute suggesting, condoning or encouraging smuggling or the like, but I'm just raising the possible consequences of legislating against and eliminating 'grey imports'.
 
I asked myself a similar question a couple of weeks while gassing for a 5Dmk4 and eventually I bought it from Wex and paid the almost 3.5k asking price. I decided that either ways it was going to be a pile of money and I have total confidence in Wex, so would I rather take a punt on one of the other retailers offering it for considerably less and be thinking about it, wondering. Or just bite the bullet, pay the going rate and just enjoy the camera when it arrived. I am enjoying the camera a lot and will be using it for years rather than months, in that context absolute peace of mind regarding the purchase was a big factor.
 
You might get a better response from Panamoz if you phoned during work hours in HK?

The problem with genuine UK retailers is there is virtually NO competition at all. For many items you can check prices on all of them for the same item and they're +/- identical. (eg link below). No wonder people buy grey.

http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Canon/Canon-Digital-SLRs/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-Camera-Body
Yesterday it was £3199 at mifuds and on 6th January it was £2995 at Camera world. U.K. Prices sometimes vary day to day. The good thing about camera price buster is you can track those trends and buy when there is a drop.
 
At the end of the day the only way these companies can sell at the prices they do is by avoiding UK import duty and tax, this has a double effect as not only does it cost the tax man and hence you in the long run as the missing taxes have to be found somewhere but the increasing use of such companies is not only putting UK camera shop jobs at risk but also have a bad knock on effect in the secondhand market, pushing down the value of genuine UK bought goods.
While we're at it lets make no bones about it, these companies are shady, your warranty is only with them, if they get put out of business you have no warranty at all and you also run the risk that the manufacturer won't work on what is in effect an illegal import.
Its time these companies where shut down by the authorities tightening up on checking the real value of parcels coming into the UK, then our home grown photography retailers might stand a chance of surviving.
I think what @magicaxeman is saying is grey imports should make sure they pay import duty (how many are under valued to get through customs?). some grey sellers say they will pay the import charge IF you get charged it, how many get throughout without paying? this would go part way to level the playing field a bit for U.K. Sellers. Recently in another thread it mentioned part of the 'price fixing' will be the manufacturers distribution networks making sure their product is sold at a price they are happy with otherwise they will just stop providing stock if it's sold too low (you can't sell low if you have no stock).

Love or hate the EU they seem to have noticed it's going on with other imports.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.po...billion-eu-payment-for-china-fraud-trade/amp/
 
At the end of the day the only way these companies can sell at the prices they do is by avoiding UK import duty and tax, this has a double effect as not only does it cost the tax man and hence you in the long run as the missing taxes have to be found somewhere but the increasing use of such companies is not only putting UK camera shop jobs at risk but also have a bad knock on effect in the secondhand market, pushing down the value of genuine UK bought goods.
While we're at it lets make no bones about it, these companies are shady, your warranty is only with them, if they get put out of business you have no warranty at all and you also run the risk that the manufacturer won't work on what is in effect an illegal import.
Its time these companies where shut down by the authorities tightening up on checking the real value of parcels coming into the UK, then our home grown photography retailers might stand a chance of surviving.
You have suggested that companies like HDEW are avoiding UK import duty and tax. As far as I know this is not compatible with UK regulations. How is it possible that such a situation can exist for so many years without attracting the attention of HMRC?
 
If you read the HRMC guidance I struggle to see how they are legal. Perhaps HMRC have other targets at present, to me buying from these cos is like trying to avoid being caught at customs bringing in a camera from say the USA or HK.
 
I believe that companies such as HDEW and Panamoz pay VAT and any duties due. But they can buy equipment from Far East retailers, pay the tax and duties due and make a profit for less than the UK retail price. I'm guessing but they perhaps even buy direct from Nikon / Canon / etc direct.

A quick example ... a D500 is around $12,500 HKD (retail price found via Google without much searching, lower prices may possibly be negotiated for bulk purchase). which equates to around £1,300. Add VAT (afaik camera bodies or camera + lens kits is zero import duty) that is £1,560.

That's around the price the Grey importers charge vs £1,700 at UK retailers.
 
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I believe that companies such as HDEW and Panamoz pay VAT and any duties due. But they can pay for equipment from Far East retailers, pay the tax and duties due and make a profit for less than the UK retail price.

A quick example ... a D500 is around $12,500 HKD (retail price found via Google without much searching, lower prices may possibly be negotiated for bulk purchase). which equates to around £1,300. Add VAT (afaik camera bodies or camera + lens kits is zero import duty) that is £1,560.

That's around the price the Grey importers charge vs £1,700 at UK retailers.
D500 is closer to £1400 from these shops, just under actually if you ask for a deal.

However, I was under the impression they paid the relevant duties, but looking at those figures maybe not :( That being said they may get them significantly cheaper than £1300 to begin with.
 
D500 is closer to £1400 from these shops, just under actually if you ask for a deal.

However, I was under the impression they paid the relevant duties, but looking at those figures maybe not :( That being said they may get them significantly cheaper than £1300 to begin with.
Well the price I quotes (£1300) appears to be HK retail price. So yes they probably pay less than that (whatever the retailers pay) assuming they have "trade" accounts with Nikon HK. And perhaps they bought a load a year ago...

Point being they probably do pay required duty...
 
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Bought my 1DX from FleaBay, true it spoke Chinese (I think!) but it came with a UK charge lead and printed manual.. It has been working perfectly since Nov 2013 and I saved £1400. For £1400 quid I was happy to give it English classes! More recently I picked up a 7D2 from Portus Digital. In their blurb Portus state that all relevant taxes and duties are paid. I cannot verify the taxes (just have to take their word for it) but the duty is Nil so I will accept that! Anyway, as far as I could see, it was a UK model in every way except that the seal was broken on the box - it is possible a UK mains adapter and manual were inserted? But given the choice (at that time) of £769 or £1199? Mmm let me think? Bit of a no brainer really!

Canon/Nikon UK are killing their retailers! If I can get a 7D2/1DX cheaper than the Pro retailers can get one then how on earth are they supposed to compete? The ONLY difference in the supply chain of my cameras was that Canon UK was not involved, even if the vendors lied and avoided VAT they could add the VAT and STILL have sold them cheaper!

It is no wonder we are losing our high street camera shops. Personally I always buy from a recognised UK retailer whenever I can, but not having won the lottery I have to look at prices, so it is rare that I can. Pity..........
 
It's interesting to see the different opinion people have on the importation of so called "Grey Imports". I understand each individual view and associated effects of importing equipment from abroad, however, the fact is from a quality aspect that this equipment is exactly the same as what is being sold via Jessops, Calumet, Wex, and many more UK retailers. The difference is purely monetary and in the case of my order which I placed with Panamoz, almost £2,000!

I would guess that these companies are shipping DDP (Delivered Duty Paid) as opposed to DDU (Delivered Duty Unpaid). This places all responsibility on the supplier to ensure the item arrives at the buyers address with all import related taxes paid. For that reason, it doesn't place the UK buyer under any position of doubt as to whether they are doing something which breaches UK law.

As for the effect on UK retailers, well.. There is only one factory which makes a Canon 5D mk 4 and they produce them for the entire global market. I have just been able to go out and buy one which has come via a minimum of one middle man, then been shipped half way across the globe for £2.5k. Taking in to account taxes, the agents mark up which will be at least 20%, plus Canon's mark up which will be at least the same 20% then you are looking at the actual cost price to be in the region of £1.3k - £1.5k, probably less. Consider how they manage to reduce significantly in price over the next few years yet still prove viable to produce at a profit! So, this being the case, then why do UK retailers stick an extra £1k on the price and sell at £3.5k? Is it because they are not able to negotiate a purchase price for >1000 units per year which is better than me for a single camera? Or, is it just greed and hefty mark ups because the entire UK retail tech market is covertly fixing the prices? Or, maybe Canon see the UK market as an area for exploitation where they think they can force retailers in to marketing goods at inflated prices? We will probably never know. However, I can see from a financial database that WEX turnover was £67m last year with a gross profit of £11.5m. Granted, they have to take operating costs from this but there were some nice dividends paid to shareholders which ran in to several millions, maybe this tells part f the story?

At the end of the day, we are all in this for either a living, a hobby or pure enjoyment and there is nothing wrong with shopping around for a good deal. Yes, some places carry more risk than others, but that is a calculated risk which we all need to carry out and accept the outcome should something go wrong.

Anyway, I have my new f2.8 24-70, 70-200 and 5D mk 4 in the post from Panamoz and getting well exited, something which doesn't happen much at the age of 40! So, thanks for all the advice guys and sharing of opinions. Maybe I will get around to sharing some images on here when I get established rather than posting questions!

Cheers

Andy
 
Canon/Nikon UK are killing their retailers! If I can get a 7D2/1DX cheaper than the Pro retailers can get one then how on earth are they supposed to compete? The ONLY difference in the supply chain of my cameras was that Canon UK was not involved, even if the vendors lied and avoided VAT they could add the VAT and STILL have sold them cheaper!

It is no wonder we are losing our high street camera shops. Personally I always buy from a recognised UK retailer whenever I can, but not having won the lottery I have to look at prices, so it is rare that I can. Pity..........
Well no ... its grey importers and those who use them who are killing the UK camera shops (despite my comments above defending grey importers). I do agree its a balance, but every time you buy from a grey importer thats a sale that a UK company has lost.

The UK price has to take into account the retailers requirement to also make a profit. At the end of the day - when you buy from a high street retailer; or (UK stock) from Amazon or from a grey importers: you have to be comfortable with it yourself. But please don't try to deny that your purchasing decisions will have consequences - whether we are talking book sellers; or camera shops they exist to sell and make a profit.

Unless you know the price that Canon UK sell cameras to UK retailers vs the price that Canon HK (or elsewhere) sell them to local retailers you cannot blame Canon UK. Remember that Canon UK do have costs too which are different from selling a camera in HK (or elsewhere).
However, I can see from a financial database that WEX turnover was £67m last year with a gross profit of £11.5m. Granted, they have to take operating costs from this but there were some nice dividends paid to shareholders which ran in to several millions, maybe this tells part f the story?
Gross profits are irrelevant ... they made operating profits of around £1.3million; after tax profits of less than £900,000 ... no one is getting rich running a camera shop in the UK.
 
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If calumet and camera world can sell the 5d Mkiv for £2850 (£650 off 18.5%)at the photography show there has to be some mark up on prices for someone, be it canon or the retailer.
 
Well no ... its grey importers and those who use them who are killing the UK camera shops (despite my comments above defending grey importers). I do agree its a balance, but every time you buy from a grey importer thats a sale that a UK company has lost.

The UK price has to take into account the retailers requirement to also make a profit. At the end of the day - when you buy from a high street retailer; or (UK stock) from Amazon or from a grey importers: you have to be comfortable with it yourself. But please don't try to deny that your purchasing decisions will have consequences - whether we are talking book sellers; or camera shops they exist to sell and make a profit.

Unless you know the price that Canon UK sell cameras to UK retailers vs the price that Canon HK (or elsewhere) sell them to local retailers you cannot blame Canon UK. Remember that Canon UK do have costs too which are different from selling a camera in HK (or elsewhere).

In the case of the 1DX and 7D2 - yes I do know what UK (Canon Pro) retailers had to pay for them at the times of my purchases (I was asked not to repeat the prices and I won't) but let us just say that I paid less. Most of us do not realise how little Camera shops make on Cameras, lenses etc - they make their money on accessories not cameras. Canon (Nikon etc) produce cameras and sell them to their distributors - do you think that the Canon distributors pay different prices for a given product? I have spoilt the days of several Canon UK Reps and they claim that they pay the same as other official Canon importers - so no price difference there - the Canon Reps have all claimed that the price difference is down to VAT and Import Duties. Well I have checked the HMRC website and guess what - there is no import duty on a stills camera which is why no DSLR shoots 30 minutes or more of video because then there would be duty! Therefore the only difference left is VAT, which is fair enough. I like the services that the UK provides and am happy to pay my fair share.

So, for the sake of discussion we will assume that the VAT was not paid on my 7D2 (though the retailer clearly states that it is paid). That would mean that it would have cost £922.80, on the day that I ordered it it cost £1199 at the larger UK Camera shops , though it did drop by £100 a couple of days later. The retailer that I bought my 7D2 from has been going for a while and has excellent feedback from their customers so it is unfair of me to even infer that they do not pay VAT even for discussion purposes - therefore it is not £922.80 vs £1199 it is actually £769 vs £1199!

Whichever price (£769 or £922.80) you decide is correct the ONLY variable in the chain is Canon UK. The camera was supplied by an official Canon Importer/exporter (there is nowhere else yo can get one), was shipped halfway across the world and was sold in the UK by a UK retailer to me. Therefore the only difference is that it came from a different Canon Approved (owned?) supplier.

So someone is jacking up the prices, it is not Canon Japan, it is certainly not the UK camera shops, VAT only covers a very small part of the difference - there is only one organisation left namely Canon UK.......................

If there is a fault in my logic please let me know as it has been a while since I dealt in international trade and financing.
 
I believe that companies such as HDEW and Panamoz pay VAT and any duties due. But they can buy equipment from Far East retailers, pay the tax and duties due and make a profit for less than the UK retail price. I'm guessing but they perhaps even buy direct from Nikon / Canon / etc direct.

A quick example ... a D500 is around $12,500 HKD (retail price found via Google without much searching, lower prices may possibly be negotiated for bulk purchase). which equates to around £1,300. Add VAT (afaik camera bodies or camera + lens kits is zero import duty) that is £1,560.

That's around the price the Grey importers charge vs £1,700 at UK retailers.

D500 is closer to £1400 from these shops, just under actually if you ask for a deal.

However, I was under the impression they paid the relevant duties, but looking at those figures maybe not :( That being said they may get them significantly cheaper than £1300 to begin with.

Well Panamoz don't pay the correct duties, as they put a lower value on it and pre-pay the duty based on that.
 
Interesting thread.

I'm in the market for a D7200 to replace my D5100. Still at the shopping around and mulling it over stage. I don't really want to buy from a grey importer but the price difference is hard to ignore.

Just looked on the camera price buster website and was surprised to discover that in December Jessops were selling it for pretty much was the greys are selling it for now. I wonder why it's gone up £150 since then? The first thing that springs to mind is the weak pound post-EU ref but I would have expected that to kick in before then, unless Jessops still had stock that they'd bought 6 months previously?

EDIT: Looked again at the tracker graph and there's a downward spike on the date of the lowest price, so it must have been a deal from Jessops.

Actually the price has been climbing since late summer so we can blame the weak pound.
 
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