Beginner Choice of Camera

Sparky94

Sparky94

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Hi all,

My first post here, my apologies if this is in the wrong place!

I am looking into getting a camera to help me take some close up pictures of some PCBs (electronic circuits) that I make. I have no photography experience at all, so I'm somewhat stuck as to what would be a good choice. The subject matter would typically be around the 50mm x 20mm size, with lots of fine points of detail. I have a budget of around £250 - £300 max, and have seen some pretty positive reviews of the Sony dsc hx400v. And added bonus for me is that it can take video footage, and that I could conceivably use it for general photography too (which is becoming more and more interesting the more I read into it!). However, I would be most interested to here if anyone has any experience with the hx400v, or any suitable alternatives/considerations within that price range.

Many thanks for all of your time. :)

Sparky
 
I'll qualify my comments by saying that I know little about the current state of the camera market in general or that camera in particular.

That said, superzoom lenses often have significant compromises, most notably in sharpness and evenness across the frame.
If you get a superzoom you'll need a good tripod too. In fact you'll probably want one anyway for what you're doing, as well as a remote release.

The key feature for your application will be the minimum focusing distance. Some compact and bridge cameras do this very well; others don't at all

Who are the images for? How professional a result do you want to create?

Lighting your PCBs will make more difference to the quality of the results than almost anything else, though, so make sure that you budget for it and get a camera with a hot shoe.
 
Sparky94 said:
I am looking into getting a camera to help me take some close up pictures of some PCBs (electronic circuits) that I make.
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How close is close-up? i.e. what size is the area of the circuit board you'd like to photograph (10mm x 10mm, 50mm x 60mm, etc.)?

I wouldn't necessarily bother with a flash for this, using a tripod with a static subject there are constant light source options that are easier to get your head around for this style of photography.
 
As @juggler says, the lens is probably your primary concern and how to be able to focus so closely. It sounds like you are wanting to get closer than 1:1 magnification, and likely a good bit more than that.

There are plenty of options here, but I would suggest starting by doing some research into achromats. This are adapters that pop onto the front of lenses to provide more magnification, and many people have great success with them. It will knock about £50 off your budget right away though.

Cheaper alternatives include extension tubes or reversing your lens, but you'll need a camera where you can physically remove the lens to do this, so this might rule out your bridge camera option. I know some people stick adapters or microscope objectives in front of a webcam to do this kind of work. The webcam can obviously be quite cheap, but the objective is likely to cost you more, but you might compromise on image quality with the webcam sensor. It's worth trying to find some examples and see if this type of thing is all you need.

As suggested, it's best to figure out "how" you are going to get the required magnification before making any decisions around camera bodies. A bridge camera is a good choice and gives you a lot of flexibility for general photography (as you mention you are interested in learning more), but the fixed lens will limit you to using achromats which you'll need to budget for, and if you enjoy the general photography aspect it will limit your abilities to experiment with new lenses etc. Bridge cameras are designed as good all rounders for general purpose use, and they do that well; but your requirements are slightly outside of general purpose.

My advice would be to look at cheap mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras. You can get good deals on the older models, especially second hand, and the fact they are mirrorless means it's easy to find adaptors for all kinds of lenses. The price of older lenses designed for film cameras is creeping back up due to these new camera bodies being available, but you can still find good deals on old dedicated macro lenses that have great quality. You might still need to use additional adapters to get you past 1:1 magnification, but these will only cost you a further £10-20, and a wide range of lenses available to play with if you want to develop it into more of a hobby. They do video too!
 
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First of all, thanks guys for the informative replies.

Indeed, I was planning to get a tripod. As I'm planning to take these pictures inside, I was thinking that a £20 - £30 tripod would suffice - no wind in my room (I hope!). I was also looking for a camera that would support a remote release, or at least have a timer so I could press the button, wait 2/3 seconds then let it take the picture. Second option is probably not the best, I imagine as I could knock the camera when doing so. The images would be primarily for me, as mementos. Thought it would be nice to have a collection of pictures of things I have worked on, that show them off in their best light. Some people like to take pictures of cars they've worked on, or trains... I'm about PCBs lol.:geek:

Typically the board sizes would range between 100mm x 100mm to 50mm x 20mm, with a varying amount of component height (sort of between 1mm and 15mm high, although I suspect most of getting that in focus is skill). As for quality, I would like to think I'm realistic in my ambitions. I'm never going to be good enough to rival professional photographers, but I would like to do my best to show off the subjects - if that makes sense. I may also pop some images on a website, so I'd like people to think more "ooh nice PCBs" rather than "ooh what rubbish photos". :p

Below is the sort of image I would love to take. The board measures roughly 125mm x 95mm.

http://img.directindustry.com/image...on-module-freescale-qoriq-tm-7027-6589217.jpg

I see the achromats being used for some incredible close ups, particularly on bugs! However, based upon the sort of image above, would it be required to pick out such detail? I believe you are quite correct about the bridge sony not having a removable lens. I am intrigued by your suggestion of a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera, though. May I ask how old is 'old', as we might slightly differ on that. :D

Thanks again for all of your time.

S
 
I'll not talk about camera here, but one thing you may want to check out is HOW you photograph small things from up close. When going close, the enemy is a shallow depth of field, so one technique you may be interested in researching is focus stacking.

Here's a tutorial I wrote for BA students (ignore the weekly task thing... that's for them).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y833j4zhpqng98b/Week4 - Focus Stacking(1).pdf?dl=0
 
Sparky94 said:
Below is the sort of image I would love to take. The board measures roughly 125mm x 95mm.

http://img.directindustry.com/image...on-module-freescale-qoriq-tm-7027-6589217.jpg

I see the achromats being used for some incredible close ups, particularly on bugs! However, based upon the sort of image above, would it be required to pick out such detail? I believe you are quite correct about the bridge sony not having a removable lens. I am intrigued by your suggestion of a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera, though. May I ask how old is 'old', as we might slightly differ on that. :D

Thanks again for all of your time.

S
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By "old" i mean, not this year's latest model :) I had something like this in mind:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS...S-M-Adapter-/252116326674?hash=item3ab34dd912

@Pookeyhead made a good point about focus stacking for close up work. Combine ZP is some freeware that will enable you to try this. From your example however it seems I over estimated the amount of magnification you require (I'm not sure how, I must have been thinking in µm's rather than mm's), and you should be able to get away with this type of shot from a standard lens. You may still need to use focus stacking to get it all in focus though. In fact your bridge camera suggestion should be able to cope with this type of shot. Apologies if I over complicated everything!!
 
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Thanks again guys.

Pookeyhead, that tutorial is amazing, very clear and informative! I shall certainly be using that, thanks for your generosity in sharing it.

TimmyG, thanks for the clarification with 'old'. :D That Canon certainly looks very interesting, especially that it can shoot in raw... I understand that there is enough material regarding the use of raw to fill several books, but if I may ask your opinions on this particular case, how useful do you think it would be to have this functionality?

Regards,

S
 
Sparky94 said:
Thanks again guys.

Pookeyhead, that tutorial is amazing, very clear and informative! I shall certainly be using that, thanks for your generosity in sharing it.

TimmyG, thanks for the clarification with 'old'. :D That Canon certainly looks very interesting, especially that it can shoot in raw... I understand that there is enough material regarding the use of raw to fill several books, but if I may ask your opinions on this particular case, how useful do you think it would be to have this functionality?

Regards,

S
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Raw files can take a lot more punishment in post, especially if you want to alter white balance or lift the shadows and keep high quality output. Normally I'd advise beginners not to bother with raw until they've got their head around the basics of camera control & lighting but your case is slightly different in that you're aiming for high quality product shots of a single subject. Take a look at some basic Lightroom tutorials and if you're not intimidated then raw is the way to go.
 
My advice is to really look at the subject and clean it... and then look at it again... as if you're anything like me you'll look at the image and wish you'd removed every speck of dust and contamination before you shot it.

Kit wise if you go for a mirrorless camera as per Tim's post you could consider Micro Four Thirds cameras. I have an "old" Panasonic G1 and a much older manual focus 50mm macro lens and the pair plus a cheap lens to camera adapter could probably be bought for something between £100 and £130 leaving you quite a bit to spend on a tripod and anything else you might need, like cleaning products to get those boards spotless before you shoot them :D
 
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Sparky94 said:
Typically the board sizes would range between 100mm x 100mm to 50mm x 20mm, with a varying amount of component height (sort of between 1mm and 15mm high, although I suspect most of getting that in focus is skill). As for quality, I would like to think I'm realistic in my ambitions. I'm never going to be good enough to rival professional photographers, but I would like to do my best to show off the subjects - if that makes sense. I may also pop some images on a website, so I'd like people to think more "ooh nice PCBs" rather than "ooh what rubbish photos". :p
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You don't need a macro for that type of shot, although a macro lens will generally resolve details clearer than a regular lens even at non-macro distances.

Lighting is going to be more important than the lens for the type of example you've given. If you're not trying to push the boundaries of professional photography a basic light tent might be good enough. Something that will provide even light from multiple directions and avoid deep shadows.

You mention the Sony HX series - really excellent for video, but actually quite mediocre for stills. I've had the HX9V and HX20V and whilst not truly bad cameras they're not really good cameras and not good value for the price (unless you really want great video in a small package and stills are a bonus). They suffer from over-compression and over aggressive noise reduction of the jpgs. This is a very common problem with Sony compacts.
 
Agree with Pookeyhead 100% regarding depth of field in the type of photos you want to produce. The superb tutorial is invaluable! Also, the point made by Juggler and Alastair regarding lighting is also very important in producing quality commercial images. Attention in these areas may mean a decent compact camera would suffice, say a Panasonic with a Leica lens.
 
I guess we all have different aims and expectations with close up record shots.
My preference is to use a compact camera, for the greater depth of field and I really dont want to spend the time in processing when I have a whole bunch to do. Most of mine will be used online and at reduced resolution, so the ultimate in quality is not required.
The current weapon of choice is a Panasonic LZ-10 compact picked up on ebay for just over £20. It suits my needs perfectly with it's Leica lens and built in close up option, no RAW though unfortunately.
Good lighting and a tripod are essential though for the uses I put it to. For speed of use, I usually use an LED video light, a little more forgiving than flash where dust is concerned.
All these words I suppose had better be backed up with examples :)
Couldn't find a circuit board, always the case when you want one. Hopefully my grotty old steel rule will suffice and give a sense of scale.

First up the full image straight from camera, but resized to 2048 pixels wide for uploading.

DOF test 01 by Steve Bennett, on Flickr

Second shot is a 2048 wide crop from the original, with just a touch of contrast added.

DOF test 02 by Steve Bennett, on Flickr

Clicking through to flickr will allow viewing at higher resolution than the much reduced size here.
Certainly no works of art, they were never intended to be, but hope they show what can be done with very basic gear.
 
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woof woof said:
The op mentions 50 and 25mm, you need a macro lens to fill the frame with that sized subject.
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For web use cropping does the job, as illustrated by Steve.

You start heading down the ILC with macro lens route and there's a metric f**k tonne of technique learning (depth of field, focus stacking, etc.) and the pound notes start slipping between your fingers, compared to the budget set-up that Steve has described and demonstrated as more than capable for the task.

Over-thinking and over-engineering the solution are fine when it's for us, but the OP isn't us... ;)
 
Thanks for all of your continued input, it is much appreciated.

Very impressive results! I see the possibility of using a compact can result in nice results, I guess for £20 I have not a lot to use trying that out first. Even if it doesn't, I should have a tripod and setup for something else, as well as a small camera I can use in the lab without worrying about solder/irons/acids wrecking the £££'s. :)

I feel as though over-engineering and over-thinking could be a trait we have in common. :giggle:

Regards,

S
 
I agree with Steve and Alastair. Many compact and bridge camera will focus to 1cm and as you can control lighting etc they should do waht you want.

This shot was take with an old bridge camera (FZ28). The matchbox is 55mm x 36mm. There is clearly some distortion but that would be easy to correct and newer, but probably still cheap, cameras might well control it better than this one.

Dave

P1200022.JPG
 
By the way, Steve has some fantastic low-cost DIY tabletop lighting set-ups on his Flickr stream. It's amazing what he can achieve with a Pringles tube and a cardboard box!
 
Alastair said:
By the way, Steve has some fantastic low-cost DIY tabletop lighting set-ups on his Flickr stream. It's amazing what he can achieve with a Pringles tube and a cardboard box!
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Thanks Alastair, humbled that you think so.
Been a while since I last played around with all that stuff, found I prefer being outside during the colder months of the year, which came as a bit of a surprise ;)
 
Steve B said:
Thanks Alastair, humbled that you think so.
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I still have a couple of your kits unfinished on the shelf Steve (including the Firefly overhead electric).. is Black Dog Mining still running? Been too long since I saw you with it in Swanley - must be over ten years ago.
 
Alastair said:
I still have a couple of your kits unfinished on the shelf Steve (including the Firefly overhead electric).. is Black Dog Mining still running? Been too long since I saw you with it in Swanley - must be over ten years ago.
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Yes, still going, busy getting ready for the trip to Kent a week on saturday, funnily enough ;)
 
Steve B said:
Yes, still going, busy getting ready for the trip to Kent a week on saturday, funnily enough ;)
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Another year it falls on a date I can't make :(
 
Hopefully :D
 
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