Choosing my first DSLR and lenses

face to face is fine ( just dont join a camera club lol full of beardy men with elbow patches on there jackets who dribble when film is mentioned :p )
but theres plenty of local meets that are always going on with other photographers most who are more than happy to help and assist when out and about. . much more fun and sometimes a sociable drink is thrown into the pot too :)
 
dean messenger said:
honestly.. the best training you can have... is to get out there with the camera.. qualifications may look good on paper but in the real world of photography its the work you produce that counts more than anything . You can find a whole host of informative vids for free on youtube ( gaving hooey, matt Granger, lynda.com etc etc ) plus plenty of experience (and arguments lol ) to be found on the forum too with helpful ( and sometimes not so helpful ) advice, hints and tips and critique.

as for accessories, apart from above mentioned tripod, bag, some memory cards and flashgun,( maybe some wireless yonguo triggers about £20-30 ) the rest is optional extras ( wireless trigger, flash stand, umbrellas and lighting gear, filters etc ) all that can be picked up along the journey .
for your 2k i would say 1500 on camera and lenses leaving £500 ( plenty enough for all your starter bits and bobs ) stupid things like lens cloths, pocket rocket blower ( under a tenner for both )
for your type of shooting as mentioned a quality fixed prime like the 60mm or 85mm mentioned ( canon or nikon both do quiality lens in that range ) , then maybe a mid range zoom such as a 70-200 for near wildlife, birds plants and flowers etc ( will also do nice portraits too ) or for landscapes you might want to go ultrawide like a 10-20 or similar.
for macro... hmm its tricky as a dedicated macro lens can cost you easily £500 or you could use something like the 85mm with extension tubes or a raynox ( about £40 either way ) and same with raynox on a 70-200 or similar.

i would worry less about any training , courses or such like and make use of all the free stuff out there on there net and use the best tool you have... yourself.. get out there and shoot. nothing beats it really and with digital theres no worry about wasting shots ( i leant back int he days of film when i first started around age 14 and it was either learn very quickly or be very expensive lol )
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I'm not doing courses for the paper qualification, more for someone to physically guide me and someone I can ask questions on the spot and be shown the answer. If I try to learn everything myself, I don't even know where to start. There are just SO many things to learn. Reading an article about the exposure triangle makes my head want to explode. o_O I'm not very good at maths and physics, so it will take me longer to figure that side of it out. So, I was thinking I don't want to spend a year trying to figure the basics out myself. :p

But I will certainly take your advice into consideration. Maybe I will just spend £200 on a course instead of £500. :p
 
I've scanned through the whole thread, and would highly suggest you do look down the path of a simple basic setup to get you going, don't even think about the future or going pro - learn to walk first, then run later. I personally think, given what you've said, the FX cameras would be too daunting to learn on.

I haven't used a D5500, but we do have a D3200 in the house (fantastic for what it is), so I would highly consider one of the D3x00 or D5x00 range, and consider a couple of lenses out of the following ranges

Tamron 17-50 or Nikon 18-55
Nikon 35 or 50 1.8s
Nikon 85 1.8
Nikon 55-300 or 70-300

Which will cover all the bases while you get going.

Other camera manufactures are available and should be considered.
 
Rapscallion said:
Personally, i think you will be best off spending around 300 or so on a second hand camera such as a d7000, get a one standard lens, such as a tamron 17-50, and use just that for 3 to 6 months. That will then give you some experience to base your future purchases on. It may well be that you value size above all and go micro four thirds, or that street photography is your thing and decide to get something like an x100, or that landscape prints at large sizes is the direction you want to go for, or sports photography, or portraits....

The point I am making is that as much as people will advise what you want, the best thing you can do for yourself is to get some experience under your belt to learn the direction you want to go in. this will dictate the equipment you will then need, and you could sell the kit you have already bought for next to no loss of money.

Otherwise you will be spending a couple of grand with no clear direction of your aims and will have a lot of kit sat in the cupboard in 3 months time.

You will also benefit from buying your kit one piece at a time and learning how to use that before going on and buying something else. Photography can be overwhelming in its breadth of skills and technology to learn and buying a camera, many lenses, accessories, software all at the same time is not a good way of learning.Take things step by step.
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Well, I like the sound of that, taking things slowly. I do get very overwhelmed when reading about photography, not knowing where to focus on. But I'm iffy about buying second hand. The shutter's gonna break faster than a new camera, right, then I'd have to spend a few hundred quid to repair it? Not too sure if I got that right, but that's what I read, lol.
 
dean messenger said:
face to face is fine ( just dont join a camera club lol full of beardy men with elbow patches on there jackets who dribble when film is mentioned :p )
but theres plenty of local meets that are always going on with other photographers most who are more than happy to help and assist when out and about. . much more fun and sometimes a sociable drink is thrown into the pot too :)
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I do agree that sounds like the way to go, fun and cheap for me. But thinking from the perspective of a pro... would you honestly be willing to babysit a newbie and answer their questions all day long during the meet, for free? :p
 
minnnt said:
How would a d610/d750 be any more daunting task to learn than a d5500?
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For one, the cameras are far more complex than the entry level DX equivalents, there is so much more packed into them that I feel you could easily get lost in the depths. Learn using a dSLR on the simpler cameras then move up after that.

Secondly, your technique has got to be so much better with FX cameras, I'm still struggling with long lenses and shallow DOF!

Thirdly, everything else that goes with the camera is so much more expensive - I feel the OP's budget would be better served by a comparatively cheaper camera and having more money left to spend on lenses, accessories, tutoring etc.

You wouldn't learn to drive in a Ferrari...
 
stumeech said:
I've scanned through the whole thread, and would highly suggest you do look down the path of a simple basic setup to get you going, don't even think about the future or going pro - learn to walk first, then run later. I personally think, given what you've said, the FX cameras would be too daunting to learn on.

I haven't used a D5500, but we do have a D3200 in the house (fantastic for what it is), so I would highly consider one of the D3x00 or D5x00 range, and consider a couple of lenses out of the following ranges

Tamron 17-50 or Nikon 18-55
Nikon 35 or 50 1.8s
Nikon 85 1.8
Nikon 55-300 or 70-300

Which will cover all the bases while you get going.

Other camera manufactures are available and should be considered.
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I have the same question as David, although I am asking it in full ignorance of anything. Why is FX is harder to learn on than DX?
Also, thank you for the recommendations. :)

Ok never mind, just saw your answer to David. :p
 
stumeech said:
For one, the cameras are far more complex than the entry level DX equivalents, there is so much more packed into them that I feel you could easily get lost in the depths. Learn using a dSLR on the simpler cameras then move up after that.

Secondly, your technique has got to be so much better with FX cameras, I'm still struggling with long lenses and shallow DOF!

Thirdly, everything else that goes with the camera is so much more expensive - I feel the OP's budget would be better served by a comparatively cheaper camera and having more money left to spend on lenses, accessories, tutoring etc.

You wouldn't learn to drive in a Ferrari...
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That makes sense to me. You make me want to get a D3300 instead of D5500. :p
 
Winter said:
Well, I like the sound of that, taking things slowly. I do get very overwhelmed when reading about photography, not knowing where to focus on. But I'm iffy about buying second hand. The shutter's gonna break faster than a new camera, right, then I'd have to spend a few hundred quid to repair it? Not too sure if I got that right, but that's what I read, lol.
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You will be very unlucky if you have any problems with a second hand camera. They are a very durable piece of technology. Lenses need a little more testing buying second hand though. But the money saved is generally all worth it, and I would advise most people new to photography to get a second hand camera (unless money is more object..)

Also some places such as mpb give a 3 month guarantee. Take this camera and lens combo, very decent quality and you could sell on quite easily if it not what you want.

http://www.mpbphotographic.co.uk/us.../used-nikon-digital-slr-cameras/nikon-d7000-4
http://www.mpbphotographic.co.uk/us...f28-xr-di-ii-vc-lens-with-motor---nikon-fit-2

But it will be very beneficial for you to have a play around with the various cameras in a local shop.
 
stumeech said:
For one, the cameras are far more complex than the entry level DX equivalents, there is so much more packed into them that I feel you could easily get lost in the depths. Learn using a dSLR on the simpler cameras then move up after that.

Secondly, your technique has got to be so much better with FX cameras, I'm still struggling with long lenses and shallow DOF!

Thirdly, everything else that goes with the camera is so much more expensive - I feel the OP's budget would be better served by a comparatively cheaper camera and having more money left to spend on lenses, accessories, tutoring etc.

You wouldn't learn to drive in a Ferrari...
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disagree that everything that goes with the camera is more expensive .. dont know so much about nikon but canon EF lenses FF or aps-c arent any difference in price.. what else is there ?
one big difference is that some of the higher end ff cameras wont have any of the creative options on the dial so you are forced straight off the bat to shoot in aperture, or shutter prioity or full manual which in reality is a better thing .
the risk with nikon is if you start aps-c and FX lenses you have to upgrade the lot if you go FF later. with canon you have the flexibility if you stick with EF lenses ( i could be wrong of course but thought with nikon it was eitehr DX or FX lenses ( do they cross over at all or are backward compatible from FF to APS-C? ) ( could be the otehr way round is it non DX wont work on aps-c.. something about black corners and crop sensing in the body . when using an aps-c lens on a FF.. ( think its why i dint choose nikon lol )
see even im confused by ther nikon sysytem doh!
if so then you would want to look at getting compatible lenses that work in both formats so save you money later.
 
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Anyway, OMG, everyone, I was hoping for a few replies, maybe even up to 5! But I feel like I've received thousands within a few short hours! Heh. Thank you so much all who replied, for taking the time to read my long post and share your experience and opinions. I tried to respond to every respond but sorry if I missed any. My head is swimming a bit now, so I will take the next few days to slowly reread everything and do further research so I can consider all your advice carefully.

More opinions are, of course, welcome, in the meantime. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate all the help here! :kiss:
 
minnnt said:
I don't buy that, sorry.
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I presume this one was aimed at me.
minnnt said:
Maybe it is how i use a camera though. I 99% of the time shoot in aperture priority mode and predominantly shoot portraiture. Don't really see how a FF camera would be any harder FOR ME to use than a APS-C would be...
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That's totally fair enough, I don't expect for one second it would be any harder for you. But we are talking about the OP's requirements, and she did say:

I have never owned a DSLR nor learned any technical skills so I'm a beginner.
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So I am merely offering my opinion on how a beginner could move forward from this point.

Buy some great cameras and lenses, which just happen to be reasonably priced for this exact market, spend a year or so seeing how it goes and then move on from there.
 
The other thing you could would be to buy a good fully capable compact fixed lens camera with a big sensor and use it as a photography training course with which to discover what kind of exchangeable lens system you want to buy into. That'll do most of what a DSLR can do, just not in such a wide range of conditions. It'll end up being a really useful backup camera for your DSLR when a wonderful photographic opportunity presents itself and you happen to have the wrong lens on your DSLR.
 
TBH FF is no harder than DX. After all, many here started on FF with 35mm film. :)

But the advice to start off with something relatively inexpensive and a single basic lens is good. Also the bigger 'pro' cameras, especially many FF jobs, tend to be heavy.
 
Winter said:
Could you explain what you mean by compelling? Do you mean the experience of using 50mm on crop, or do you mean the result that produces?

Also, thanks for your input on the bodies. To be honest, mirrorless bodies don't appeal to me aesthetically speaking. I find tiny boxy bodies with huge lenses protruding out of them slightly silly looking. :p But I will go read up more on mirrorless cameras before I make up my mind. :)
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always seemed too long, or not wide enough. its noteable that only leica made a fancy 75mm prime... because a fancy 90mm would be too large and cover the viewfinder window.
60/90 eqivilent feels much better
 
The reasons why FF has been mentioned by myself and others is to save money in the long run. The D750 is probably the best all round FF camera on the market now for the price and it's probably one of the lightest and the grip is excellent. The OP could then stick with this camera for the next 10 years and it will still be a capable camera like the D700 and 5D2 are now. Buying the D5500 now and she maybe looking to change in six months as it doesn't do what she wants.. i.e low light kids photography.

As for learning, it's the same with a DX or FF camera and in general the FF camera will have more external controls so will be easier to learn IMO, rather diving into menus to change things.

As for my comment on the AF of FF cameras they are usually better at tracking and low light performance due to the bigger sensor, law of physics. The Nikon D7200, Canon 7Dii will also be very good as they are designed for the more serious amature and for sports shooters with the Canon being the better probably. My feeling, the D5500 will struggle in low light, as it has the same 39 point AF as the D7000 which I have owned and that struggled on times.

As been mentioned though, you need to buy the camera that is most comfortable to use.

Finally, myself I don't like buying used cameras due to the un-certainty with them, unless they come with a long warranty. Although there are some good deals out there, I have been stung twice, hence not my preference.
 
well if you want light, budget priced FF . also look at the canon 6D . not as full specced as the nikon ( about the same weight, slightly less mp at 20, but its around £300-400 cheaper so for a budget priced FF its worth a look.
 
Personally, for the OP's requirements, I'd really recommend S/H cameras and lenses, here's why.

Everyone is being very helpful here and I'll try not to be too disparaging.

The OP has a dream, a dream of becoming a professional photographer, but readily admits to not being able to understand the exposure triangle or to understand 'what to focus on'.

This is the equivalent of someone who knows they have a future as a pro footballer, but hasn't kicked a ball yet and can't get their head round the off side rule or understanding who is on which side.

Back to the positives :)
So buy some decent second hand gear, and dive in. If you give up because it's too difficult, you'll lose a hundred quid at most, if you buy new, you'll lose a third of your money in months.

Don't buy new entry level stuff, it's missing half the controls you'll want and adds in a load of crap you don't want. A simple camera like the 5d Classic is cheap as chips, and will last longer than an old low end body. Get a 35mm 50mm and 85mm and you'll have some lenses that produce great images and will lose nothing in value if bought s/h. If you get hooked, you can add to the savings buying a newer camera and the old one will be a backup*

Unless you're planning to shoot landscapes, forget the tripod. But get a flash and some triggers. A great soft box kit costs peanuts and offers something you'll not get any other way.

* on a seriously scary note, remember if you do make it to pro standard, this starter kit will be just that, the start of your collection. Pros need redundant amounts of gear.
 
Winter said:
I do agree that sounds like the way to go, fun and cheap for me. But thinking from the perspective of a pro... would you honestly be willing to babysit a newbie and answer their questions all day long during the meet, for free? :p
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You might be surprised...
:p
Worth a read through the whole thread.
DG Phototraining said:
Hi all

Phil V and I have been chatting about doing a fun shoot together and we thought we'd see if anyone else wants to join us ???

For those that aren't fully aware - Off Camera Flash (OCF) is, as it sounds, about using flashguns that aren't sitting on the camera. Usually, this means the flash is triggered by a radio trigger of some sort but it can also still in fact be attached to the camera by a sync lead

The point is that you can apply fill lighting or use OCF as the Key, with or without modifiers, when you are out & about as well as in the studio

I generally use Speedlights (Nikon's term for small flashguns), and Phil has a Safari kit too = LOADS of POWER - as Jeremy Clarkson used to say before his sacking :D

You won't actually need any of your own kit but if you have any all the better for you to bring it along too

We're thinking Monk Bretton Priory (close to Barnsley - an old ruin (the Priory is the ruin not Barnsley - on second thoughts !!!)) and the Model(s) can either just be each other, or if you're prepared to share costs we can organise a paid model for us all to shoot too. NOTE: clothed model that is, its about lighting not porn ;)

Here's a few examples of mine to show what we're talking about... the first is at Monk Bretton Priory

View attachment 33409
This one was a shoot for a local lass (not a model) who's into 50's styling. It is OCF but actually still attached via a sync lead, shot through a Beauty Dish (BD) as iTTL (that's auto btw) and shot in full Sun at midday

View attachment 33410
This was OCF on a stand several feet away triggered by a radio trigger, its bare-bulb (so no modifier) and shot manually

View attachment 33408
Although this was actually shot at night you can create the same look in daytime too, especially if you have lots of power in your flash. Shot in Manual through a BD

View attachment 33407

Obviously at night here, it was at 1000 ISO too as the background was so dark. The Key light is a bare-bulb flash up high in Manual, but the keen amongst you will see she's actually cross-lit from the top right - this is because I positioned her in the downlight from the pub we were next to, and its that casting her shadow forwards

View attachment 33406

Daylight, but under railway arches this time. Lit with a bare speedlight shot in Manual, a 2nd speedlight was zoomed to light the crappy door in the background

Let us know if you interested as as soon as we have some numbers well get everything finalised :)

Should be fun :D

Cheers

Dave (and Phil next...)
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Fully agree with the last few posts. With what you are interested in, the toddlers in doors (low light), your long lasting love for bokeh, focus on people.

Get a second hand full frame, make it easy for yourself to do what you want and be able to utilise some cracking older lenses with some superb character.

You missed a great opportunity to go to the talk photography mega meet. Was only 1.5 hours away from you, and lots of people, cameras, and free lessons.

I would really suggest to learn like that. Get the camera, go out and practise, practise, practise. Play with effects and the controls of the camera. And then start moving into other areas.

Forget about monitor calibration, tripods and all that stuff for now. Get it when you hit the limitations.
 
Just to add to the above about what you don't need to get or to worry about.

Get a camera and a lens, and learn to make pictures. If you ask my Mrs about 'the exposure triangle' she'll look at you like you've got 2 heads. But she understands that lower light will require higher ISO, slower shutter speeds or wider apertures. She also understands what artistic reasons she'd use wide or narrow apertures and fast and slow shutter speeds. It's not about reading guides, it's about understanding photography and then some...

But you want to shoot people, where the most important skills are people skills, not camera skills. it's more about who you are than what you know. You've spent so long reading the 'essentials' of photography that you have no idea what to prioritise.

Trying to learn how to calibrate a monitor before you've even taken a single shot you're happy with is a bit like reading the scientific theory required to create the perfect souffle before you've ever tried to boil an egg.
 
minnnt said:
TBH most people on here would look at you like that if you asked them about the exposure triangle.
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Which is why I get frustrated when people suggest it's s requirement for people buying their first bridge camera. :)
 
in rehard to what Phil said above re the canon 5d. theres a 5d mk ll in the classifieds on here for a bargain giveaway price .
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/canon-5d-mkii-49k-shutter-count-£600.590146/

may be more than what you are thinking of paying for camera bidy but the 5D will pretty hold a good value and will see you good for many years.
or theres the older mk l here with 2 lenses ( excellent priced 70-200 f/4 L ) and a tokina 28-70 ( or you could just make offer for the lenses )

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/cheap-canon-5d-mark-i.586990/
 
Or with Nikon get a D700 with the non G versions of the primes aforementioned. Brilliant for Bokeh and Portrait, and get a classic 24-120 'street sweeper' for your street stuff. Again the non G version thus driven by the motor of the camera.

Brilliant starter set for 'handbag' money :) Leaving plenty of money for the good bag.

In my humble opinion those, including the Canon suggestions, would help you more opposed to fighting against you which in my opinion (been there done that) entry level crop dslr tend to do.

But please do go out and handle them, feel them. Both options are very good.

I remember it well, a friend and I went in for our cameras. Similar requirements, he came out with Canon and I came out with Nikon. Purely based upon how they feel in our hands as most other elements are just comparable. Well unless you like white lenses, then there is only one choice.
 
chris malcolm said:
The other thing you could would be to buy a good fully capable compact fixed lens camera with a big sensor and use it as a photography training course with which to discover what kind of exchangeable lens system you want to buy into. That'll do most of what a DSLR can do, just not in such a wide range of conditions. It'll end up being a really useful backup camera for your DSLR when a wonderful photographic opportunity presents itself and you happen to have the wrong lens on your DSLR.
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Thanks for your suggestion, Chris. :) That's a good option for budget training, but I'm afraid I would feel limited by it within a year, so I thought I should start with something closer to what I want to end up with. Of course, I have no idea how I would really feel after I sink my teeth into proper photography, so I'm having to guess everything now. :p
 
pingu666 said:
always seemed too long, or not wide enough. its noteable that only leica made a fancy 75mm prime... because a fancy 90mm would be too large and cover the viewfinder window.
60/90 eqivilent feels much better
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I guess it's all down to personal preference and I would have to test it out myself before I can really know what I need and feel comfortable with. :snaphappy:
 
Swanseajack said:
Finally, myself I don't like buying used cameras due to the un-certainty with them, unless they come with a long warranty. Although there are some good deals out there, I have been stung twice, hence not my preference.
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Initially, I had the same thought as you about the uncertainty of used cameras, but so many here recommended it as an option so I started having second thoughts and veering towards buying used. And now after reading what you said, I'm changing my mind again. I am so easily swayed. o_O
 
kit lenses allow a newcomer to photography to get lenses that cover sensible ranges at a budget price. They're better than they used to be. They may not be as optically good, as well built or as weather sealed as the professional range but they are 1/10th of the cost.
 
dean messenger said:
well if you want light, budget priced FF . also look at the canon 6D . not as full specced as the nikon ( about the same weight, slightly less mp at 20, but its around £300-400 cheaper so for a budget priced FF its worth a look.
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Thank you, I'll have a look at that! :)
 
Phil V said:
The OP has a dream, a dream of becoming a professional photographer, but readily admits to not being able to understand the exposure triangle or to understand 'what to focus on'.

This is the equivalent of someone who knows they have a future as a pro footballer, but hasn't kicked a ball yet and can't get their head round the off side rule or understanding who is on which side.
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To be fair, I don't think I'm as bad as a pro footballer wannabe who's never kicked a ball. :p I've been taking photos for maybe 20 years, just only with a point-and-shoot and never bothered with learning the more technical aspects of photography. I do roughly know what ISO and shutter speed and aperture mean. I just feel it'll take me longer than the average photographer to make that knowledge instinctual and know what settings I need for the perfect shot.

For an idea of what I'm capable of, as well as not capable of, photography wise, here's my Instagram account: https://instagram.com/sheylara_uk/

I know I have a long way to go to be good, but I believe I can get where I want to be... some day, however long it takes, lol.

Don't buy new entry level stuff, it's missing half the controls you'll want and adds in a load of crap you don't want. A simple camera like the 5d Classic is cheap as chips, and will last longer than an old low end body. Get a 35mm 50mm and 85mm and you'll have some lenses that produce great images and will lose nothing in value if bought s/h. If you get hooked, you can add to the savings buying a newer camera and the old one will be a backup*
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Do you mean a Canon EOS 5D (with no Mark I, II, III in the name)? Sorry, I don't really know much about Canon and had to google it and there seems to be many versions of 5D :p

Trying to learn how to calibrate a monitor before you've even taken a single shot you're happy with is a bit like reading the scientific theory required to create the perfect souffle before you've ever tried to boil an egg.
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The reason I'm considering monitor calibration from the start is because I've been editing my photos with Photoshop for about 10 years and I know my monitor doesn't show me a true representation, well, plus my editing skills are self-taught and not professional at all, so I think the photos I put on my blog probably have tones that hurt the eyes of professionals. :p

Also, I actually have taken many shots I'm happy with, at the level of my skill. Of course, I want to be better, always, but I'm able to be happy with what I can achieve now while striving to do better.

Well, thank you for your sound advice, which does make a lot of sense to me. :)
 
dean messenger said:
in rehard to what Phil said above re the canon 5d. theres a 5d mk ll in the classifieds on here for a bargain giveaway price .
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/canon-5d-mkii-49k-shutter-count-£600.590146/

may be more than what you are thinking of paying for camera bidy but the 5D will pretty hold a good value and will see you good for many years.
or theres the older mk l here with 2 lenses ( excellent priced 70-200 f/4 L ) and a tokina 28-70 ( or you could just make offer for the lenses )

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/cheap-canon-5d-mark-i.586990/
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I can't see the trading forums yet! :p I'll have to look in actual shops for used cameras, I guess.
 
dejongj said:
Or with Nikon get a D700 with the non G versions of the primes aforementioned. Brilliant for Bokeh and Portrait, and get a classic 24-120 'street sweeper' for your street stuff. Again the non G version thus driven by the motor of the camera.

Brilliant starter set for 'handbag' money :) Leaving plenty of money for the good bag.

In my humble opinion those, including the Canon suggestions, would help you more opposed to fighting against you which in my opinion (been there done that) entry level crop dslr tend to do.

But please do go out and handle them, feel them. Both options are very good.

I remember it well, a friend and I went in for our cameras. Similar requirements, he came out with Canon and I came out with Nikon. Purely based upon how they feel in our hands as most other elements are just comparable. Well unless you like white lenses, then there is only one choice.
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Okay, thanks for all your advice. Appreciate it! I am now veering more and more towards getting a FF, which is what I kinda wanted right from the beginning, but kept thinking I should be sensible and not run before I could walk or something like that. :p

Um, what is a white lens?
 
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