Choosing the photos for a wedding album

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-Rob-

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I've just been having a debate with a fellow weekend warrior wedding photographer about supplying albums to clients and we came across something we completely disagree on regarding who chooses which photos get presented in the wedding album.

I'm not going to say which my preference is but one of us says that you should never give the client the choice as it's the photographer that designs the album therefore they should be the ones to select the photos. The other says that the B&G should choose the photos then leave the design up to the photographer who has to work around the selection they've been given.

What is the view of other wedding photographers who design albums?
 
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It's the clients album & they choose the images for it. From experience I know that images that I love & have done very well in competitions with haven't been chosen by the clients for their albums & so I firmly believe that we, as photographers, see images differently to clients.
I am also certain that I would take far longer to lay out an album if I chose the images because I'd be trying to guess which images the client would want.
 
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Of course it's the couple's job to choose which photos they want in the album - the more you do the job, the more you realise there's "no accounting for taste" in their choices - they pay the bill, it's their choice - you have to work with what they want (or you won't last very long!)
 
The only people who are 'wrong' on this subject are those saying there's only one right way to do it.

As with everything it's a sales decision. You're selling 'You', 'Your vision' and 'Your customer service'.

For some the artist is the USP, and they will sell the fact that they can produce a superior product when they choose all or most of the images, for others it's 'giving the customer the choice' that puts bread on the table. Neither are wrong, and hopefully both can prove that they are right (happy customers to prove their point).

Anyone that can't see that a mile away needs to have a quiet word with themselves;).
 
All I can say is that in over 20 years of happy brides, I never presumed to make the choice for them, as often what they choose to put in the album was incredibly selective - some want "just the service and photos outside the church", most wanted a selection from the whole day, some would order extra albums and choose to display "the lot", some would go for a poncy "presentation album" with 30 favourites, and the rest in another large album..... Often they'd choose to leave out certain family members that they didn't like (albeit you'd got cracking photos of them).... I can understand the concept of "I'm an artiste, you'll take what I give you", but I get the feeling I'd have got nowhere fast if I'd tried it on with most couples.

I must confess it also works the other way - I did a wedding for a young, trendy "design student" who didn't want an album, just the photos, so I of course complied - at a later date I saw what she'd done with them, and I was to be frank gobsmacked, and had an acute dose of "how dare she?" - she had taken scissors to most of the images, and mounted pieces of them, along with various garish gewgaws in a frankly dreadful sugar-paper "album" (the sort of thing a 5 year old comes home from school with) - I was mortified...........(but it was yet another happy bride)
 
I agree with Phil, its a sales decision and as long as the client is aware beforehand how the process works, then neither option is right or wrong as such.

However, personally and unless asked by the clients to make some choices where they can't, I would never pressume to chose a clients images. It is their album and their memories and whilst I may think their choices a little odd at times, those photos will be personal and special to them and it is my job to show them off to their best in the album design. I am not saying it is wrong that a photographer has full artistic control over which images, but you would have to be going some to convince me to do it for [to?] my clients I'm afraid.
 
And there's my point hidden right in the middle of you disagreeing with me...
Organnyx said:
.... I can understand the concept of "I'm an artiste, you'll take what I give you", but I get the feeling I'd have got nowhere fast if I'd tried it on with most couples.

...
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It's not about right or wrong, it's about the photographer and their relationship with the client.

And what you don't realise, is that your beliefs drive that relationship. You think they're getting exactly what they want. But they're not! They never gave it a thought until you asked them. And the way you asked them and the way you present the choices creates their 'decision'. I'm amazed you can't see that.

I design the album simply because a few brides have held me up on picture choices. It's not arrogance or being an 'artiste' (don't know where you dragged that word up, it has nothing to do with photography) it's about an efficient workflow. Every B&G can make changes and they get to sign off the design.

Not one bride has ever questioned it being a good idea, once I've put to them how much time and stress I'm saving them:D.
 
Surely the couple know which ones realy mean a lot to them? Yes you should maybe give them advise on how to make the album work in terms of sonsistency and telling a story but still its theyre album in the end.
 
JonMo said:
Surely the couple know which ones realy mean a lot to them? Yes you should maybe give them advise on how to make the album work in terms of sonsistency and telling a story but still its theyre album in the end.
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Well surely then if they know what's important we should be asking them advice on DoF and posing too. :nuts:

If I buy a car I get a certain amount of choice but I don't get to choose from any available engine whether I'd like 6 or 8 wheels. I can only choose from what the manufacturer knows will work. They're the experts but that doesn't mean I'll be a dissatisfied customer. (y)
 
Phil V said:
Well surely then if they know what's important we should be asking them advice on DoF and posing too. :nuts:

If I buy a car I get a certain amount of choice but I don't get to choose from any available engine whether I'd like 6 or 8 wheels. I can only choose from what the manufacturer knows will work. They're the experts but that doesn't mean I'll be a dissatisfied customer. (y)
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If you're going to use a car analogy then surely the manufacturer makes a wide range of cars and you choose the exact one you want. They don't make a wide range and then say you MUST have the green focus.
 
I personally when doing jobs have presented what I believe to be the best way and then given the choice of changing should they wish.

Both on portraits , pets, weddings, Motorsport.. whatever, I always look through and set out what looks best in my mind, and then if they think something looks better or means more to them in a certain way, fair enough and I change it.
 
But they won't let me have the Fiesta with an engine from a 1974 Cortina and the wheels from a Transit either. They only allow me to select what will 'work'.

I'm not saying its right or wrong to let them choose. See my earlier post where I explain it's pure marketing. Anyone who can't see both sides of this is frankly stupid IMHO!

Some photographers will hold off selling album sizes until photos are chosen, do you really think that's customer choice or is it crafty upselling?

If a photographer is offering 150 shots to choose from and another one is offering 1000, does that alter your perception of customer influence over album design?

Are packages 'forcing customers to purchase things they don't want' or is it a ripoff to charge someone to shoot and then only deliver proofs they can't use for anything.

It's all marketing, what you choose to offer and how you convince the customer it's the right product for them.
 
Phil V said:
But they won't let me have the Fiesta with an engine from a 1974 Cortina and the wheels from a Transit either. They only allow me to select what will 'work'.
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I agree with the principle that there is no right or wrong way but still disagree with you analogy. What you're saying is like a bride saying she wants you to cut her out of one photo and place her in a different one with a blue dress on instead of white.

Brides don't ask you to change the photos, they just pick from what's presented to them.
 
-Rob- said:
I agree with the principle that there is no right or wrong way but still disagree with you analogy. What you're saying is like a bride saying she wants you to cut her out of one photo and place her in a different one with a blue dress on instead of white.

Brides don't ask you to change the photos, they just pick from what's presented to them.
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And the subtle difference is that I'm offering a pre designed car and options to make changes, you're offering a list of options from which you'll build a car.

There's less difference than it looks from a distance and the finished cars won't be radically different either.
 
Chaz Photos said:
Lets employ a builder and her designs the house.. Umm I think not.

If I em pay anyone to do work for me, I say what I want, not have what He wants me to have..
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Love this for an understanding of the subject:clap: - So you're telling your builder how to lay bricks?

Designing an album is my job - how will a customer who's never done it before do a better job than me?:LOL:
 
Phil V said:
Love this for an understanding of the subject:clap: - So you're telling your builder how to lay bricks?

Designing an album is my job - how will a customer who's never done it before do a better job than me?:LOL:
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But design the album is not how to lay bricks the laying of bricks is the taking of the photos.... the album is how the house will look
think your Analogy is back to front.
 
You may well be "better" at layout, you may well be able to make a more aesthetically pleasing album than the mug punter, but choice of photographs by the couple has to me always been an intrinsic part of wedding photography - I always gave them all the photographs, and let them choose which and how they were to be displayed. By all means design the album for them when they've chosen the photos (as I always did)
A wedding album should NOT just be a photographer's ego-trip - it is the one time that many families get together (often the only time in many years) - you are helping to put together what is also a "record document" for that family - an album they will consult perhaps in 20 years time for happy memories, often of long-dead family members - although we may assume we "know best", we don't know which family members were only there on sufferance (but we got cracking pictures of), and we don't know the "balance" that they want.
If photographers can sell a "Henry Ford" package (any colour you like sir, as long as it's black!), good luck to them, I've always relied on liaison with the couple to give them what they want - I always saw my job as using my expertise to give the coverage (and photos) that they wanted
 
Chaz Photos said:
But design the album is not how to lay bricks the laying of bricks is the taking of the photos.... the album is how the house will look
think your Analogy is back to front.
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But the architect will tell you if the design will work or not - the builder puts it all in place - and the client lives happily ever after with the furnishings they have chosen for the designer.
 
Nope, As a wedding photographer, my finished product is an album.
Stick with your house anaology - I might know what I want my house to look like (kinda) but I'll hire an architect - because they know what needs to be there, they'll design in things I might have missed and they'll make sure that the whole project 'works'. I will demand input, but they're the experts.

If I were to start laying down a list of demands that would compromise the architectural integrity, I'd expect the expert to guide me to a compromise that 'works'.

There's a word for the kind of customer that demands stuff that is 'their choice because they're the customer' thankfully we don't have many of them. They never end up with the best product (as I'm sure you'll understand).

I'll say it again (as it appears most people only read the opening post and dive in)- if anyone thinks there's a massive chasm between an album where the customer chooses most of the photo's and the photographer designs it (and gets it signed off) and a photographer designed album were the customer can make changes (and gets it signed off) they're seriously deluded.
 
No, as a wedding photographer, my job is to use my expertise to cover their wedding, the way they want me to, including allowing them an input over "which" photos they want mounted in an album.
I can for instance advise that around 150 photos will look good in the album provided, but that can probably be "pushed" to 180 but the layout will suffer - it's their choice, not mine..........
 
Organnyx said:
No, as a wedding photographer, my job is to use my expertise to cover their wedding, the way they want me to, including allowing them an input over "which" photos they want mounted in an album.
I can for instance advise that around 150 photos will look good in the album provided, but that can probably be "pushed" to 180 but the layout will suffer - it's their choice, not mine..........
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Wouldn't your job be to also provide them with an album that aesthetically works? You need to show them the flow of the album - that is why they are employing you - not just as a taker of photographs but as a finisher to their day!

I suppose it is how you, yourself, try and sell yourself.

If you let the couple design their album and you didn't like it - could you be enthused as to try and get them to recommend you on the basis of their album? Your reputation is at stake!
 
I must be wrong by presenting the client with a first draft of the album design at the same time as the final edits of all the photos then........but it does mean that album designs aren't hanging round for a couple of years after the wedding and out and in couples hands in good time.

Martin, could you post a link to your homepage - just nosey ;)
 
You choose which images you want to show them (editing out the rubbish) and they choose from them.


Steve.
 
The way I see the house build Vs Album build analogy......

If I was having a house built from scratch then I'd know what possile options are available to put in a house but I can't have them all so I'd expect to be able to tell the architect I wanted 4 bedrooms, a bathroom, 2 living rooms, a kitchen and a garage.
If I was a bride wanting a wedding album I'd know I had 300 photos to choose from but I only about 50 fit in the album I've ordered so I'd expect to be able to tell the photographer which of his photos I wanted to see in the album.
If I was an architect I'd take the list of things the client wanted and then suggest to them they can have everything they want but you'll also need some doors to get from room to room.
If I was a photographer I'd take the list of photos the client wants to see then add in any extra ones I felt were needed to make the album flow to show the full story of the day and to make the design work.
If I was an architect that was asked for a 4 bedroom house but I delivered a 3 bedroom house I'd have unhappy clients. But if you deliver a 4 bedroom house with a few extras that make it the luxury house they wanted the client would be very happy.
If a client gives a photographer a list of 50 photos they want in an album but they actually get those 50 plus an extra 10 to make the design work better you'll still have very happy clients.
 
-Rob- said:
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If a client gives a photographer a list of 50 photos they want in an album but they actually get those 50 plus an extra 10 to make the design work better you'll still have very happy clients.
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Lets see another side to this:
If a photographer delivers a client a brilliantly designed album with 60 gorgeous photographs in it, that she never had to agonise over, then he'll have very happy clients(y). (failing to see the difference:shrug:)

The only thing wrong here are the people that can't see there's more than one way to skin a cat.:bang::bang:


I'll give you the line on it that changed my mind.

If you show a client 300 fab images and tell her only 100 are going in the album, she'll easily pick out her favourites (the 20 where she looks younger, skinnier and more beautiful than in real life) but for the rest of the album, she'll start editing out, not editing in. Psychologically she's looking for things wrong with your pictures, and you asked her to do it:shake:

Even if you deliver her a fantastic album, in the future when she looks through her photo's, she remembers all the niggly things that she didn't like, you've just become a worse photographer in her eyes:thumbsdown:.
 
I'm sorry, these claims were just not born out in practice - people want to choose their favourite photos, and you soon learn that what you and I may think is wonderful may not be what the couple rate as worth going in the album - if you can sell people the idea of "your choice", that's fine by me (and obviously them too), but in my experience, people are far more discerning, and want to be involved in the creative process, especially over choosing to leave pics of Uncle Alf out (etc) - if you want to offer the "option" of your choice, then that's fine, but please don't knock those of us who've worked successfully by offering "choice" for many years

Sorry to disappoint, I no longer have a public "home page" - I'm retired...
 
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I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thinks it is quite arrogant for the photographer to decide what is important enough to go in a couples album.

I also think it is more laziness, however it is dressed up, for the photographer to pre design as it is easy to pick your favourites that work with no thought to actual subject matter - only flow ... and it takes 10 minutes compared to an hour when they choose

But that's just my opinion and client feedback on the subject
 
Organnyx said:
I'm sorry, these claims were just not born out in practice - people want to choose their favourite photos, and you soon learn that what you and I may think is wonderful may not be what the couple rate as worth going in the album - if you can sell people the idea of "your choice", that's fine by me (and obviously them too), but in my experience, people are far more discerning, and want to be involved in the creative process, especially over choosing to leave pics of Uncle Alf out (etc) - if you want to offer the "option" of your choice, then that's fine, but please don't knock those of us who've worked successfully by offering "choice" for many years

Sorry to disappoint, I no longer have a public "home page" - I'm retired...
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Martin
You will never get it, I'm afraid, It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Ask a young girl on the street if she'll want to choose her photo's for her wedding album, she'll have to think about the answer, your assertion that people 'want' to choose is no more valid than the opposite.

Tell the B&G they're choosing the photo's and they'll think 'of course we are - why wouldn't we'(y).

Tell them that they don't have to worry about picking the photo's - you'll design an album and they get to veto anything, and they'll say 'Of course, why would we need to bother with that - you're the expert'(y).

It's pure marketing. You have been doing it for years without realising. Ask one of my bride's or Hugh's brides what they thought of the input they had in the process, they'll tell you it was smooth and efficient and they got exactly what they wanted.

I'd have credited you with enough imagination to be able to see that:thinking:
 
Phil V said:
Designing an album is my job - how will a customer who's never done it before do a better job than me?:LOL:
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Agree 100%.

Good album design is a skill. Just as much as taking the images. What sort of business wouldn't want demonstrate their expertise to the client and use as another USP?

If I were looking for a wedding photographer, I'd go with the one who could be bothered to take the photos and THEN continue to take the same care, attention and skill to design the best possible album they could do. The album is the finished product, not the photos. As a client, I would not want the hassle and stress of picking through hundreds of images to make a book, for the photographer to just chuck it all together and hope it flows right and looks "professional".

I'm not saying a client designed album is worse than a photographer designed one from scratch. But some people just can't see the "why" the photographer can do it. I see loads of reasons why they should.
 
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We're not talking about clients designing albums. We are talking about photographers professionally designing albums from clients selections of images. Thats what I do & every album tells the story of the day & each spread tells its part of the day.
Yes its sometimes harder with the client's choices but thats part of the job, not to take the cop out route of forcing a choice onto the client to make the album design easy.
 
It's not a cop out to offer a pre design. It's just a different way of doing it. Many of my clients like being given a helping hand with suggestions for the album, and it benefits me because generally the album is in clients hand far faster.
 
Just to throw in an opinion from the other side. I recently got married and the photographer took some amazing pictures. We discussed albums and he said that if we wanted an album he would design it, select the photos and give it to us. We hesitantly agreed. The album he produced was awful and as he refused to "disrupt the artistic vision" by changing it in any way we refused to pay for the album and just got a cd with the images on.

We have since designed our own album through mypublisher and couldn't be happier.

It's all very well having a vision but you have to take into account what your customer wants too.
 
Every Bride I've talked with about whether they or we should choose the photos for the album have been shocked at the thought they might not be able to select the photos they want.

On the other hand, they look at our sample work which is usually key in their choice of photographer. That being the case some her would say that they've bought into our style but how do they know whether the photographer or couple chose the images?

As Phil says it is very much an aspect of the sales process and making it clear at that point will often help them decide whether they are prepared to trust the photographer's judgement on which images are best for the album.

Despite my earlier misgivings there is no absolutely right or wrong way.
 
Not read the whole thread but I would always let the client choose the photos then I choose the layout. I have often thought a certain photo was a definite choice for a book only to find the bride & groom choose something else...

I would not dare make a book and then have the client say they did not like the photos in it
 
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TheCrewDesigns said:
I would not dare make a book and then have the client say they did not like the photos in it
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No-one suggested dismissing the proofing process:wacky:

That'd be utter madness:nuts:

And nothing at all to do with who chooses the photo's:shrug:
 
No what I am saying is that I don't agree that it's the photographers choice what goes into the album, it should be the bride and grooms choice. If I produced an album with my choices in i'm sure it would be very different from there's.
 
I can see both sides of the argument but I wouldnt pick what photos to go into the album, technically brilliant and artistic photos are all well and good but I dont know who or what the client prefers.
 
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