1. Withers

    Withers

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    I’m interested in opinions about the rights and wrongs of photographers posting images on Facebook which they have taken for paying clients, as opposed to people just posting shots they’ve taken for their own fun/interest.

    For example, my friend recently gave birth to her first child and commissioned a local photographer to take newborn pics of the baby when she was just 10 days old. The images were lovely but the photographer posted them on her FB page before my friend had actually seen them. Another photographer of my acquaintance, who does a lot of dogs and horses as well as weddings for clients often posts “sneak peek” images from shoots before the client has seen them.

    Thoughts .......?
     
  2. Box Brownie

    Box Brownie

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    As you are talking about a professional service being booked, paid for etc then IMO it is down what the contract says.........where money changed hands there needs to be agreement.

    If in each case you describe, if in the contract then fine..........but the way you describe it suggests the photographer is acting outside the contract. Because such 'exposure' and use by the tog IMO needs to be in the contract & explained to the client in an unambiguous way that leaves no doubt or misunderstanding!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  3. Gil Bev

    Gil Bev

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    Name:
    Gil
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    I always ask permission before using clients photos on social media. I think it's only fair they approve to it first - and the last think you want to do is p*** off a paying customer.
     
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  4. Withers

    Withers

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    I agree that's the decent (if not contractual) thing to do, but in both of these cases, the photographer cited the fact that the images are their copyright, so they can do with them what they wish .... which, I suppose, is correct. I think the friend with the baby was a bit miffed because she hadn't actually seen the pictures herself at the point and only heard they were there when another FB friend shared the images and people started commenting on them .... :(
     
  5. Phil V

    Phil V

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    Phil
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    Let’s not make any assumptions:
    We have no idea what was in those contracts, nor are we privy to a balanced view of the situation.

    That said:
    The photographer may have copyright, but the CDPA specifically states he can’t post client images without their consent.

    This (as posted) is a clear case of bad customer relations. Not only does the client legally have to give permission, morally they have to ensure the client understands that. And from a customer service POV the client should be delighted that they get to see some pics early. ;)
     
  6. Withers

    Withers

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    Well ... in the case of the friend with the baby, I do have an idea of what was in the contract, as she showed it to me. And it says that the photographer does retain the right to post images on social media (fair enough), but it does not stipulate at what point in the process that might happen. As such my friend assumed (wrongly) that she might actually get to see them first, before the world started telling her how nice they were when she hadn't actually seen them herself. She was far from delighted, I can tell you!!

    The other photographer has a similar clause in her contacts, I understand, but again it simply says that they retain the right to post images, not that they will wait to do that until the paying client has seen the pictures. To me this is a matter of timing. If a client has seen the pictures and is happy with them, then OK, but to jump the gun and post them early (before the client has seen them) seems rude and unfair. What would happen if the client hated the pictures??
     
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  7. Phil V

    Phil V

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    Phil
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    Then that’s simple - your friends don’t legally have a complaint legally.

    However the photographer is totally useless at managing customerS.

    Just to give you an alternative view; last week a groom rang me 20 mins after i’d Notified him his sneak peek images were online. He had me close to tears telling me how amazing we had been at their wedding and how the images exceeded all their expectations.
     
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  8. gremlin16

    gremlin16

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    It’s just bad form. With all paid work, the client must be the first to see it. Then, after a respectful period and WITH permission then the photographer may post images up for their own promotion.

    I feel really bad for the lady with the baby in this scenario.

    Most of my best images are from paid work. They will never see the light of day, other than when and where the client chooses to show them. My consolation is the bag of money they gave me to do just that.

    Yes it’s tricky when you are trying to promote yourself, but promoting yourself in this light as if you are only interested in yourself will never end well for a business.


    Conversely, some of the charity events I shoot, I’m actually encouraged by the client to get the images of Facebook as soon as possible, without going through themselves first. This is because some things are time sensitive, no point showing something a month after it happened. But again, it’s with prior permission only.
     
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  9. Donnie

    Donnie

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    Hmmm odd as it seemed to be the done thing at one time to send a couple of sneak peeks to the brides social media usually within a day or so of the wedding?
     
  10. gremlin16

    gremlin16

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    nothing wrong with a sneak peak for a wedding provided the customer is aware beforehand and happy to do so. they most normally are, but you are just showing respect to them by asking.
     
  11. Donnie

    Donnie

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    Absolutely, was always in the contract and discussed when I did the few weddings I did some years ago.
     
  12. Phil V

    Phil V

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    It is the done thing!

    This is a case of some photographers completely mis-handling their relationship with the clients. And if the OP is accurate, misunderstanding the law regarding the clients rights too.

    As in my first post, it’s not only acceptable behaviour, it’s normal, and the client is generally delighted.
     
  13. Giblets

    Giblets

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    Peter
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    Notwithstanding what is in the contract I wonder if the client could stipulate that no images are to be posted on social media until after they have seen them and then only the ones that they consent to can be posted. Contracts work in both directions.
     
  14. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

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    I tell everyone about my plan to post what I call Initial Tasters - 3-5 photos the day after their Wedding go on Facebook

    And my Final Tasters - usually 42 that go online as they are sent their proofing download link

    I also ask that they add me as a Facebook Friend to enable me to do so such that they are tagged in my posts for their photos appear on their Timeline - which they almost all do - and that they tag & share them too - which many do

    And its in my Contract too

    Can't really be fairer than that can I? And for the very (VERY) few who don't want me to do that its simple, I don't

    Dave
     
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  15. Phil V

    Phil V

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    Phil
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    Course they could.

    This isn’t a legal question (though the OP reads that way), it’s a customer service one.
     
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  16. Donnie

    Donnie

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    Indeed, but the OP is vague as a vague thing and there's not much information to go on other than a miffed friend, it may in fact be the client completely misunderstanding or not reading the contract properly. Wouldn't be the first time but again, lots of this is very vague.
     
  17. Withers

    Withers

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    Well ... apologies for being :"as vague as a vague thing" but to clarify ...... my OP was really seeking to ask, not about legality, but about timing and whether there is a right and wrong way to go about using client images on FB and other social media. Clearly, this is a matter of the correct way to handle customer relations, as someone up thread has said. A contract is a contract, agreed. But if the client mis-understands the wording, or makes incorrect assumptions based on their understanding then it seems like both parties are setting themselves up for a fall out at some point.

    Legally, my new mum friend hadn't got a gripe in that she signed a contract allowing the photographer to post images on FB. In practice, she would have preferred (and she assumed) that she might get to see them before the rest of the world. So I guess I'm seeking to clarify whether photographers who work to agree client contracts - weddings, portrait work etc - should be clearer in their wording, or go to greater lengths to explain the process, so that people actually understand what's going to happen, rather than allowing them to assume an order of events etc and then being angry (or very angry indeed - in the case of my friend) that other people get to see their precious pictures before they do. In this case, my friend was wanting to gift prints of the images to the grandparents as a surprise, but both sets of grannies had seen them on FB before they were even printed which totally ruined the moment for her. Hence why she was so upset.

    She would have preferred the order of events to have been 1) take pics, 2) process as necessary, 3) show client proofs of pics, 4) gain approval of proofs, 5) post on photographers FB page 6) produce prints as ordered etc. In this case steps 3 and 4 seem to have been skipped ........

    Those of you who discuss this with the client before hand are doing the right thing IMO.
     
  18. andy1868

    andy1868

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    Andy
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    As said above, it probably should have been done the expected way but wasn’t, a customer relations issue more than anything. The photographer was probably excited to get them uploaded, which I’m sure we’re all guilty of, but I wouldn’t dream of doing that until the client has seen them.

    I don’t even tend to do sneak peeks on Facebook etc just in case. I shoot weddings so dont want to risk a situation where people are on honeymoons and away from social media and being the last to see them. I tend to do them over email so the clients have them before anyone else, if it takes them a day or two to see them then that’s fine. They’re the ones paying, but they’re also the ones with the most invested emotionally in the photographs, so I absolutely want them to see them first.
     
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  19. Phil V

    Phil V

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    It is quite ‘normal’ for the sneak peek to be the first time the client sees those images, but they get notified as they’re uploaded, so it’s highly unlikely that the client won’t be the first to see them.

    As we keep saying, this is a communication issue.
     
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  20. Phil V

    Phil V

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    21,445
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    Phil
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    Again, the only thing done wrong was the comm’s (which were appalling), the timing is fine.

    The client should be happy to see them as soon as possible, and that should have been the photographers primary motive.
     
  21. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

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    Maybe you're not getting through and need to say it more often ;)

    And quite often my couples' mates will comment on how amazing their photos are before the couple sees them - just depends who's got access to Facebook first - its never been an issue

    They do only see 42-ish though, not the rest of the 500+ delivered

    Dave
     
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  22. imattersuk

    imattersuk

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    Pete
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    Just had my own wedding and i'm more than happy for our photographer to showcase his work on Facebook, he did a great job and is a very nice guy, I have no problem with him using my images to gain business.
     
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  23. Lensflare

    Lensflare

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    Simon Everett
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    There is one thing to post pictures after the client has received them, but it is just plain bad manners to post them before the client has even seen them. Bad manners, nothing to do with legalities. I really despair for how etiquette is being undermined and in many cases, completely ignored in this day and age.

    If you have to ask on here about the rights and wrongs of doing something, you can bet your bottom dollar, it is WRONG to do whatever it is. It may not be illegal, but it is WRONG.
     
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  24. Withers

    Withers

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    Totally agree. Well said.
     
  25. Phil V

    Phil V

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    21,445
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    That’s a very old fashioned view I’m afraid. And @Lensflare will generally admit that’s true too.

    You’ve heard from lots of working pros who deal with b2c customers day in day out. This is ‘normal’ behaviour, it’s not the customers fault for not realising that, it’s not your fault for not understanding it, we’ve all told you that the fault lies with the photographers, but not for what they did.
     
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  26. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    11,410
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    Mark
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    Hmm, I'm not sure that either of those contract clauses would stand up to legal scrutiny.You can't reserve a right that you don't have in the firrst place.

    The commissioner needs to explicitly waive their right to Sect 85 protection.
     
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  27. Meeten

    Meeten

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    Meeten
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    I think that etiquette "the customary code of polite behaviour in society or among members of a particular profession or group" is blurred when you mix photography and social media.
    Yes the client may have wanted to se the photos first, but perhaps she should have been more explicit rather than working on assumptions.
    As said previously, MOST wedding couples are delighted to see images on FB. These 'sneak peeks' are often a huge improvement on the myriad of iphone photos that get posted, so to have a few great images of a special day, there is normally great joy.

    When a large number of photographers are seeking additional work and using social media to stir up potential future clients, it should be no surprise that the order of events has been as we are told.

    Sign a contract, abide by the terms. If there is anything you are unsure about, then ask. It's not difficult....
     
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  28. Withers

    Withers

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    Ok ... so having good manners is "old fashioned" then? ..... Fine: Thank you for that view Phil ... i'll bear that in mind.

    But just to clarify ... I'm not in any way arguing that a contractual arrangement between a service provider (in this case a photographer) and a client should not be binding, or that either party has any cause to gripe when the clauses of any contract are acted upon - as was the case with my friend and her baby pictures. In fact, I'm not arguing at all ... just following an interesting debate.

    I'm simply saying that good old fashioned good manners, and effective communication, between the parties in any business arrangement might go a long way to securing a good working relationship. And that good relationship (along with the quality of the work produced, of course) might in turn encourage clients to recommend your services to others. I have no personal axe to grind either way - I too have posted client images on FB (but always with their permission, and always after they've seen them) ... but I do try to observe the niceties of politeness in my dealings with others. And I do happen to think that the world would be a much nicer place if others did the same. If that's old fashioned, then so be it.
     
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  29. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

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    I take offense at this and consider it very bad manners to assume my (and others') way of working is so wrong you feel you need to tell us we're wrong! That IS bad manners in my book

    Pretty much every one of my couples is on Facebook, pretty much every one of them adds me as a 'Friend' and (aside from some sensitive types or sensitive reasons - which are rare) EVERY ONE of them know that both Initial and Final Tasters will go on Facebook for all to see, if they are not online at that moment then of course their mates may see them first, but no-one has ever cared to ask me not to do it and obviously they know it'll happen. At most others see 45 images before they do, the other 500ish the B&G always see first

    The only bad manners being shown in this thread is people telling others how it should be done based on their own beliefs & practices. Good manners is NOT old fashioned at all and its a great way to please your clients, and everyone else for that matter, telling people what they are doing is wrong just because you don't like something is not showing good manners

    Dave
     
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  30. Phil V

    Phil V

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    21,445
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    I never suggested good manners was old fashioned, just that Simon's attitude was, and in my defence, there's batrely a week goes by where Simon doesn't admit to being a luddite or old fashioned.
    Oh why didn't I understand that was the issue...

    oh

    I might have mentioned it...

    here:

    and here...

    and here...

    and again here...

    and here...

    and here too

    Meanwhile, all those times I posted that... You ignored me and waited till someone agreed with your very narrow view and jumped in to agree with them.
     
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  31. ukaskew

    ukaskew

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    3,174
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    Chris
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    It's in my contract but I'll still...

    a) run it past the couple after the wedding
    b) leave it at least a month so they've had a chance to share them with everyone anyway
     
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  32. Lensflare

    Lensflare

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    Simon Everett
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    I take you're 'offended', Snowflake!

    Weddingss I do not consider as corporate work. Imagine a CEO shoot and the first the company knows of it is seeing it plastered all over anti-social media. An advertising shoot, and the art directed pictures are plastered on instafame before the client sees them, thereby losing their commercial advantage and allowing their competitors time to react before the campaign is live.....

    Wedding smudgers, I ask you!
     
  33. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

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    4,335
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    Dave
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    Of course I'm not really offended, it just was an excuse to prove how bad your manners were - and are again in your reply here too :p

    lol

    Dave
     
  34. Lensflare

    Lensflare

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    2,762
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    Simon Everett
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    A true gentleman is never, unintentionally, rude!
     
  35. Phil V

    Phil V

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    21,445
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    Phil
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    Simon
    What this shows more than anything is that your ‘business experience’ is a million miles away from that in the OP and that you’re unaccustomed to and ill prepared for the Yorkshire sense of humour.
     
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  36. KitsuneAndy

    KitsuneAndy

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    3,735
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    Andy
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    If it's in the photographers contract, then I believe his contract isn't legal. A contract cannot contain terms and conditions that remove the legal right of a client, in this case the right to privacy under Section 85 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act.

    The request for permission to share images must be separate from contract and not a term of the booking.

    That said, I share images online, as per the majority of wedding photographers. The clients love the previews, it gets me lots of traffic, win-win.
     
  37. Lensflare

    Lensflare

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    2,762
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    Simon Everett
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    Is it similar to the Lancashire sense of humour, only thicker?
     
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  38. Withers

    Withers

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    37
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    (Apologies for having to edit your lengthy quote fest ...... )

    No I didn’t ignore you. I actually consistently agreed with yours and other pp’s views that good manners and good communication are important in any business relationship. But this isn’t about what I think. I sought to ask for opinions on the matter in my OP, and you’ve made your opinion clear. In post #25 you said that having good manners is “old fashioned”. So, sorry to disagree on that point and equally sorry if you consider that a “narrow view” (#30). As I’ve already said, I have no axe to grind on this as I do post client images on FB from time to time - but always with permission and pre-approval. That’s just how I do things because I think it’s the right way to go about it. If you do things differently, then fine ....... each to their own. (For reference, I do human and animal portraits amongst other things, but not weddings).

    Also ........ Some posters here are referring to weddings as an example of where this routinely happens. As a photographic commission, it could be a view that a wedding is different from, for example, a private portrait shoot. A wedding is usually a crowd affair, attended by numerous family and friends of the bride and groom- many of whom will be taking pictures and posting them, almost in real time, on social media. Thus seeing pictures on FB pretty much as it happens is the accepted norm. Certainly seeing examples of the “official” pics, taken by a contracted pro, within a very short time frame is almost expected, indeed welcomed. Again, no issues or arguments from me on that one. That’s how things work these days.

    However - a portrait shoot is much more private, one to one affair. Whether it’s your baby, your granny or your pet Labrador that is the subject, it’s generally just the photographer and the immediate people involved who are involved. As such, it could be argued that things could/should be handled with a little more sensitivity, privacy and tact. Certainly my new mum friend felt that way, hence her canvassing my opinion (and me TP’s, in turn) in the first place.
     
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  39. Phil V

    Phil V

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    21,445
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    Phil
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    No I never...
    I clearly said Simon was old fashioned.

    But if you want to make s*** up for the sake of an argument, knock yourself out.
     
  40. Phil V

    Phil V

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    21,445
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    Phil
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    FTFY ;)
     
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