Colour management back to zero

James Blonde

James Blonde

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385
Name
Scott
Edit My Images
Yes
I'm having some real issues with colour management, and I need to set everything back to zero and start again...

My prints are coming out washed out and off colour, and I can't get my images on screen to match printed output closely enough to be sure what I'm going to get when I print. Very recently, I've bought a new printer, and had unprofiled test prints calibrated, and profiles supplied, by one of the paper manufacturers. Paper calibration prints with zero profiling printed through Adobe Color Printer Utility are coming out fine, so the problem is clearly my system rather than the printer. I've been using a ColorMunki to profile my displays, and I'd done a lot of fiddling around a year or so ago with a previous printer, so between those things, I think I've stuffed something up fundamentally.



2 other things that have changed.

- My PC no longer seems to be recognising my ColorMunki. I think that's the PC rather than the ColorMunki (USB ports are on the way out maybe, or... see previous excuse).
- Secondly, I've replaced my cheap monitors. The monitor of note that I'll be using for editing (the other is for general use) is the Dell UP2716D. I've bought that now in the hope that a decent out the box display will get me round my ColorMunki / USB issues until I can get a new PC or blow this one away and start again.

The other request is, are there any decent, idiot proof colour management tutorials worth looking at to get me back to a decent baseline?
 
You are printing the test charts through the Adobe utility?

Are you making a note of all the settings for media type etc, and making sure that those same settings are used when you print using the generated profile?

What application are you using to send your prints to the printer?

When making prints you are selecting 'application manages colour' and choosing the correct profile and disabling colour management in the driver?
 
Yes, I was printing the calibration tests through the Adobe utility following the paper manufacturers instructions, and setting the papers as requested (turning off printer colour adjustment). I'm assuming ACPU doesn't try to introduce any application colour management (I guess that's the point of it)

I'm printing either through Lightroom or Photoshop, proofing and printing using the custom ICC profile (doesn't make any massive screen adjustments compared to default) and turning off colour management on the printer (as above) - so yes, I think I'm being consistent.

I *think* I need something better to manage my printing, but that's a different question....
 
I realise a lot of hassle, but can you post screen shots of your settings in Lightroom/Photoshop and the printer driver, this sort of problem is often difficult to diagnose at a distance and it may be something simple that is missed...
 
For a start does the monitor output resemble anything close to a recent ipad or macbook pro? From experience they come with pretty decent factory calibration. Anything massively out would be highly suspect.

Then lets follow up with screenshots of what you are doing. You are supposed to let photoshop do all the colour management.
 
https://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/printworkflow.html
This is well worth looking at. I think without doubt it was the best article re Epson 3800 and since getting the sc p800 I contacted him re an update for the p800 and he said to base all settings and procedures around this article as they are basically the same settings. I think I have the same monitor as you as well. The above contains instructions for B&W using Epsons ABW driver both with and without ABW profiles, results have been excellent.
 
I'll take you through my workflow, and if you think you want a screenshot of one element, just shout :)

1. When the ColorMunki worked, Calibrate screen, setting brightness to 100 (down from the default 120). As mentioned, I can't recalibrate right now, so have set the new Dell monitor to Adobe RGB, and hoping it's well enough calibrated out the box for the moment.
2. Open and edit Image in Lightroom (or ACR in Photoshop) and edit accordingly
- (if edited in ACR or Photoshop, import back into Lightroom)
3. Create a proofing copy in Lightroom (tick soft proofing, create proof copy, choose the relevant printer / paper profile, intent: perceptual, tick simulate paper and inks). Image on screen changes. Edit proof copy as desired to try to match original
4. Print - set up page layout as desired, key bits at the bottom though - Print to: Printer, Print resolution currently 240dpi, standard sharpening, matte media type (printing on Epson Doubleweight Matte for test prints), Color Management - choose the relevant printer / paper profile (as above), perceptual intent, no print adjustments.
5. Printer setup - Media type - Doubleweight Matte Paper (or paper as specified), Colour print, "Quality" quality, Mode - no color adjustment, paper source: roll, Print Preview ticked

Worth noting - the on screen "print preview" image matches the print output much better than the develop / print window image. This is got to be a pointer at something I'm doing wrong I'd guess?

Also worth saying that, when sent off to a lab, with compensation ticked, the prints seemed to come out fine!


Only changes to this workflow have been for the Permajet calibration prints, where it appears they want all colour management turned off when printing their reference image - as I guess you'd expect.

I haven't tried printing from Photoshop yet, but when I was using my old Canon desktop printer, I'd edit as required, and looking at previous settings,
1. I'd proof using the relevant paper / printer, Intent: Relative colorimetric, black point compensation, simulate paper color and simulate black ink
2. Print - Photoshop manages colors, using relevant printer / paper profile, relative colorimetric, black point compensation, everything else default.

Although I'd clearly been experimenting with Printer Manages Colors back then

I don't think I made clear that I've literally just replaced my monitors, but the print / screen differences still exist. The Dell monitor is much much better, but still not matching the print. I can look into this further if the above run through's don't help - I suspect you'll see a problem in those! :) Don't have any Apple products to test on - do have a Microsoft Surfacebook Pro, and my new Dell monitor straight out the box. I understand both are well calibrated by default?
 
Just a thought but if you're viewing at sRGB and printing at Adobe RGB that may be causing a mismatch.

When you sent to the lab did you specify what colour space to use or leave it to them - if that's the case perhaps they used sRGB which would have possibly matched to what you were viewing at.

Have you tried printing at sRGB?
 
Tried it - the print preview of an sRGB profiled image certainly looks more like the screen image on the cheaper monitors, - more saturated, much better colour balance, looked "right" and looked more like what I was getting from the print lab. But the print from LR itself was different again - maybe a bit brighter than the unprofiled print, but still under saturated and still not what I was seeing on the screen. It obviously also wasn't profiled for the printer / paper combo. Think I need to print some known good test images.

It was definitely a decent suggestion, and it's given me a pointer at something I wasn't considering.
 
OK, a slight aside, but it's related.

Looking at monitors alone, the 100% AdobeRGB Dell monitor has demonstrated to me that there is so much more data & colour in my images than I have appreciated, in comparison to the cheaper monitors I have been using till now. I obviously "knew" this, but it's only when you see it you can properly appreciate it. They're completely different images across the 2 monitors. So I guess either I decide that this new world isn't for me and do everything in sRGB, or embrace the brave new world and work in AdobeRGB across the board. and I think I'd be daft not to do that.

But that doesn't necessarily explain the printing, and has probably got me more confused in that regard. and I've still got problems. Maybe I need to blow the computer away and start again from scratch, and do everything by the book?
 
Welcome to the world of printing at home, it can be the most satisfying experience, it can also be the most frustrating.

I can't post screen shots of my settings as I have just about everything packed for a move to the other side of the country.

I will concentrate on Lightroom here, (I may get things wrong, due to aforementioned packing), The soft proofing and printing in LR is one of the best. So the first thing you need to do is to soft proof, when you soft proof a virtual copy is created than you adjust to get as close to the original (that you view side by side) as possible. This proof copy has the name of the profile appended. I find that only the slightest adjustments work the best and you should have simulate paper white and black point compensation selected... I see that you are using Matte paper which will not have the same saturation or D-Max that a glossy or lustre paper will exhibit. You can turn on the gamut warning and maybe use a curves adjustment to reduce the out of gamut colours (I use a targeted adjustment) however don't go over the top, I find that some out of gamut does not cause any major problems.

Next move to the print module... select your chosen template, you absolutely must use the proof image with the name of the profile appended to the file name. Make sure that the correct profile etc is selected, that the rendering intent is the same as when you soft proofed and that draft mode isn't selected. Check that your settings are correct in the driver.

If your monitor profile is good, your paper/ink/printer profile is good then taking into consideration the different responses of the paper the resulting print should be good to go, obviously within limits...

If you can manage screen shots of the various stages it would be a great help.
 
Thanks Phil - I *think* that's exactly what I'm doing at every stage. I'll take some screen shots.

The papers I'm using are both matte - the default Epson Doubleweight Matte, and the rather more expensive Permajet Photo Art Silk. I want to try to be able to get decent, consistent, reproducible results on the Epson paper before moving on to the Permajet. I think I'm finally getting the hang of using the print module with roll paper - wasted a fair bit trying to figure it out! :)
 
Sorry I've abandoned this thread - been moving my mum into sheltered housing, so that's had to take priority. I'll sort out workflow screenshots this weekend I think (because clearly, gorgeous weather deserves to be ignored whilst I sit in front of a computer all weekend.... :tumbleweed:)
 
Right! Finally had time to properly screenshot and post this after a few weeks of playing with proofing paper! and typically it now appears to be printing consistently what I want - brightness, colour, etc etc! :clap: I've no idea really what it was I'd changed - I'm pretty sure the process below is the one I've been following consistently, but the only thing I know I've changed is the monitor calibration, and it didn't seem to change that much from the stock profile. Maybe I'll post a photo of the failed prints and you might be able to diagnose what I did before, but I've done something, somewhere, to fix it! Anyway, thought it worth posting my screenshots anyway

Screenshots as follows, after calibrating my monitor with i1 Display. Apologies for the size of the screenshots - was doing them on my widescreen monitor.

Firstly, open image, into Develop Module, tick "Soft Profiling", choose correct profile (In this case it's a custom Permajet Photo Art Silk profile
screenshot2.jpg

IF I need to make any adjustments, I'll create a proof copy and adjust that. In this case, I created the proof copy, but didn't feel it needed any adjustments. I'll then move to the Print Module. Firstly, I check the paper settings in Page Setup:
screenshot4.jpg

Permajet recommend Velvet Fine Art as the printer paper setting (This is also set on the printer screen). Colour Management is switched off, and I choose the relevant paper settings.

and then I move into the Print Module:

screenshot3.jpg

In this case, I'm doing 2 x A4(ish) prints on 24" roll paper. From the printing perspective, the important bits are showing: Colour Management set to the custom paper profile.

Finally, I hit Print, which gives me the preview screen, on which I hit print again.

and out come the prints!
 
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