Considering Mirrorless

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dancook

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Dan
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I currently have 5dm3 with 35m 1.4, 85mm 1.2 and 135mm f2 - I like fast primes. I'm considering a mirrorless system in addition to this camera.

Having recently gotten into street photography mostly using the 135mm f2, I've been considering I might want something smaller as not to intimidate the local wildlife.

After a few days of research I think a EM-1 and 75mm 1.8 could be a possible option. The body is only £722 from Panomoz.

I also have a couple of friends weddings later this year, I wonder whether the EM-1 could have a place as a second camera and wondered what role it could take.

I'd appreciate any opinions on this purchase for street and as a second camera for weddings, and I am concerned a little about the IQ and DOF of 4/3.
 
dancook said:
I currently have 5dm3 with 35m 1.4, 85mm 1.2 and 135mm f2 - I like fast primes. I'm considering a mirrorless system in addition to this camera.

Having recently gotten into street photography mostly using the 135mm f2, I've been considering I might want something smaller as not to intimidate the local wildlife.

After a few days of research I think a EM-1 and 75mm 1.8 could be a possible option. The body is only £722 from Panomoz.

I also have a couple of friends weddings later this year, I wonder whether the EM-1 could have a place as a second camera and wondered what role it could take.

I'd appreciate any opinions on this purchase for street and as a second camera for weddings, and I am concerned a little about the IQ and DOF of 4/3.
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Lindsay Dobson uses M4/3 for weddings very successfully. She's a member on here http://lindsaydobsonphotography.com/blog/why-i-use-micro-four-thirds-cameras/

If you like fast primes for shallow DoF, then use the crop factor to convert equivalence. Eg, 35/1.4 on FF behaves like 18mm f/0.7 on M4/3, 85/1.2 is 42mm f/0.6, 135/2 is 68mm f/1.0, so you'll have trouble matching those. M4/3's 75/1.8 behaves like 150mm f/3.6 on FF. You'll also lose ultimate sharpness and a couple of stops high ISO capability.

You need to try it really, only you can decide. While those conversion figures look like M4/3 loses out heavily, the counter argument is that FF is overkill for a lot of things and that M4/3 is 'good enough'.
 
HoppyUK said:
Lindsay Dobson uses M4/3 for weddings very successfully. She's a member on here http://lindsaydobsonphotography.com/blog/why-i-use-micro-four-thirds-cameras/

If you like fast primes for shallow DoF, then use the crop factor to convert equivalence. Eg, 35/1.4 on FF behaves like 18mm f/0.7 on M4/3, 85/1.2 is 42mm f/0.6, 135/2 is 68mm f/1.0, so you'll have trouble matching those. M4/3's 75/1.8 behaves like 150mm f/3.6 on FF. You'll also lose ultimate sharpness and a couple of stops high ISO capability.

You need to try it really, only you can decide. While those conversion figures look like M4/3 loses out heavily, the counter argument is that FF is overkill for a lot of things and that M4/3 is 'good enough'.
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Bear in mind though that although your conversions are correct in terms of equivalent field of view and depth of field, in terms of exposure there is no difference. So you essentially get twice as much depth of field for a given aperture with m43 compared to FF, allowing you to use a stop lower ISO compared to FF for shots where you actually want non-wafer-thin DoF, which partially negates the high ISO advantage of FF.
 
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dancook said:
I'd appreciate any opinions on this purchase for street and as a second camera for weddings, and I am concerned a little about the IQ and DOF of 4/3.
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There are lots of example shots you can download which may convince you that image quality isn't an issue unless you're comparing MFT with the best FF cameras at the highest ISO's or very largest prints. Other than those two areas I convinced myself ages ago that even my lowly G1 is good enough and I'm sure that the latest cameras are better.

If you are worried about DoF you can always just set your camera to mimic the x2 crop of MFT and see how you feel about the DoF. There's a 17mm f1.8 which should give you a similar shot to your 35mm at f3.6, there's a 42.5mm f1.2 and a 45mm f1.8 which should give similar shots to your 85mm at f2.4 and f3.6 and there's the 75mm f1.8 you are already considering. Personally I find that there's enough scope for thin DoF with MFT and of course if you are going for a very thin DoF look you can get that from MFT if you are willing to alter your framing by using a longer lens or by shortening your camera to subject distance.
 
Thanks for all the info so far, I particularly like the idea to mimic the DOF - I will have to give that a try!
 
dancook said:
Thanks for all the info so far, I particularly like the idea to mimic the DOF - I will have to give that a try!
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One more thing... Some of these MFT lenses are good performers even wide open so it's often not an issue shooting at the widest apertures.
 
The majority of the Fuji cameras are slow in focus speeds - the XT1 is the best of the bunch but does not match the speed or accuracy of the modern Micro 4/3 cameras. Ultimately it depends on what you shoot of course - I still have a couple of Fuji bodies but they have no relevance to my professional work (with the exception of the original X 100 - terribly slow but the leaf shutter is fantastic when I need a very high X Sync speed). The lens choices are also still somewhat limited whereas Micro 4/3 will offer you lenses for absolutely everything. In this respect Micro 4/3 is a complete system with extremely high performance - it covers me for everything from portraiture to wildlife. But if you don't need that then of course the Fujis are worth considering. However I will also say that X Trans is unacceptable to me as a portrait photographer - I'll not bore you with all the details.

Re: the lowlight capability - it is also worth pointing out that Fuji fudges the numbers somewhat - by around 2/3 EV according to my tests. That narrows the ISO gap quite a bit - but Micro 4/3 will easily overtake it in slow static situations thanks to IBIS. Pretty interesting when you bench test the two together.

So as you can see, sensor performance is rarely "absolute" and in my view should never be the determining factor.
 
Lindsay D said:
Hi Dan, the major practical differences between full frame and Micro 4/3 are not always what you think they'll be - in real-world situations equivalence isn't absolute. There is a detailed explanation of that on my blog here: http://lindsaydobsonphotography.com/blog/micro-four-thirds-vs-full-frame/
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Thanks, nice article.

Shallow DOF and bokeh still play a large part of what I love about photography. It's probably what got me interested in photography before I even knew what I liked to shoot.

My friend who wants me to do her wedding likes my style, which I worry could mean 85mm 1.2 wide open...

But I realise it's not always appropriate to have silly thin DOF :) especially if it's your job to provide in focus photographs!

Although using current lenses wide open at a certain distance gets subject all in focus with beautiful bokeh isolation. I will try stopping my lenses down to see if I am satisfied. Although considering I could still use both cameras I don't really lose out.

Looks like I might postpone the 200mm f2 after all.. And lose a bet
 
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Lindsay D said:
It's unbelievably slow ....
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merrils are abit slow, the older ones where much slower, but the quality is worth it, and u can fire of consecutive shots fairly quickly, focus speed on the dp2 isnt too bad, dp3 is slow.
 
dancook said:
Thanks, nice article.

Shallow DOF and bokeh still play a large part of what I love about photography. It's probably what got me interested in photography before I even knew what I liked to shoot.

My friend who wants me to do her wedding likes my style, which I worry could mean 85mm 1.2 wide open...

But I realise it's not always appropriate to have silly thin DOF :) especially if it's your job to provide in focus photographs!
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I wonder what it is about the 85/1.2 images that she likes. I'm thinking it's bokeh related, with soft out of focus backgrounds and strong subject isolation. This is often assumed to be a shallow depth of field thing, and of course it is, but that's only part of the story. IMO, there are better results to be had by moving back and zooming in rather than whacking the aperture open to an ultra low f/number that also results in impractically thin DoF.

Examples here, both shot at f/4. DoF is the same in both images.

70mm f/4


200mm f/4
 
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Yes better results have me wanting 200mm f2 but it's not practical for all situations. Like when you can't step back.

You can get enough DOF for a person 3/4 to full body with 1.2 85mm. So it's not necessarily too thin, and you get your nice bokeh.
 
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Lindsay D said:
The majority of the Fuji cameras are slow in focus speeds - the XT1 is the best of the bunch but does not match the speed or accuracy of the modern Micro 4/3 cameras. Ultimately it depends on what you shoot of course - I still have a couple of Fuji bodies but they have no relevance to my professional work (with the exception of the original X 100 - terribly slow but the leaf shutter is fantastic when I need a very high X Sync speed). The lens choices are also still somewhat limited whereas Micro 4/3 will offer you lenses for absolutely everything. In this respect Micro 4/3 is a complete system with extremely high performance - it covers me for everything from portraiture to wildlife. But if you don't need that then of course the Fujis are worth considering. However I will also say that X Trans is unacceptable to me as a portrait photographer - I'll not bore you with all the details.

Re: the lowlight capability - it is also worth pointing out that Fuji fudges the numbers somewhat - by around 2/3 EV according to my tests. That narrows the ISO gap quite a bit - but Micro 4/3 will easily overtake it in slow static situations thanks to IBIS. Pretty interesting when you bench test the two together.

So as you can see, sensor performance is rarely "absolute" and in my view should never be the determining factor.
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Each to his own,but i have not had trouble with the newer Fuji in AF, XE-2/XT-1,even the Xpro-1 with the updates is quick,and i think Fuji lens plan will easily match Micro 4/3 soon,i know the IBIS is very good,but be able to shoot at slower shutter speeds doesn't help if you need an higher shutter speed to stop action.

I did try Olympus for a while and just got on better with Fuji :)
 
Might be helpful - (comparison is by a photographer who normally uses a 5D M3)

 
Haven't checked videos yet.

Been thinking, for a wedding, two bodies 5dm3 and em-1 - During a wedding can use em-1 for group shots at night where the added DOF is beneficial and I can use my 85mm 1.2 for picking people out / single person portraits.
 
applemint said:
Might be helpful - (comparison is by a photographer who normally uses a 5D M3)

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applemint said:
Might be helpful - (comparison is by a photographer who normally uses a 5D M3)

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I have seen this video and my problem with it is that you get the feeling that from their point of view these cameras are only toy cameras that can't and won't replace a full frame DSLR. I don't think that they have given themselves enough time to live with and learn these cameras. IMHO they have been unfair on both systems.
 
simonblue said:
Each to his own,but i have not had trouble with the newer Fuji in AF, XE-2/XT-1,even the Xpro-1 with the updates is quick,and i think Fuji lens plan will easily match Micro 4/3 soon,i know the IBIS is very good,but be able to shoot at slower shutter speeds doesn't help if you need an higher shutter speed to stop action.

I did try Olympus for a while and just got on better with Fuji :)
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Yes it's really important to use a system which suits you - in fact that is more important than anything else. In that regard I am of course just commenting in light of my own experiences and the work I do, which naturally may differ to others, and I certainly have to place a range of demands on my kit. I found that the autofocus on all of the bodies pre-XT1 was poor and completely unsuitable for the work I do which is often dynamic or wildlife related. The point about IBIS is that if you undertake controlled portraiture or wedding work then IBIS really comes into its own. The dark elements of a wedding are normally the most static phases of the day such as the ceremony and this is where you can leverage IBIS and end up utilising significantly lower ISO values than I would if I were using my full frame equipment. The same would go for the controlled bridal portraits or getting ready shots. But of course if you don't do that kind of work then it would not be a concern.
 
dancook said:
Haven't checked videos yet.

Been thinking, for a wedding, two bodies 5dm3 and em-1 - During a wedding can use em-1 for group shots at night where the added DOF is beneficial and I can use my 85mm 1.2 for picking people out / single person portraits.
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I personally found the slowness of the XE1 pretty crippling for this kind of thing as well as the performance of the EVF, there were several other niggles which may or may not relate to how you do things. In my view there are much better options, but as has been said if it suits your way of doing things then that is what matters. Maybe find a way of trying it out before you buy.

Edit: apologies for referring to the wrong camera Dan - you are of course talking about the EM1 (which I use extensively). It is a speed devil, unbelievably impressive in its performance. The ergonomics are flawless, but of course I always recommend that you try something yourself before making a purchase.
 
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pingu666 said:
merrils are abit slow, the older ones where much slower, but the quality is worth it, and u can fire of consecutive shots fairly quickly, focus speed on the dp2 isnt too bad, dp3 is slow.
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Yes, that's what I found. However I would be very cautious about suggesting the quality is worth it - the best image quality in the world is entirely wasted if you cannot get the shots in the first place due to performance factors. If you're fortunate to be shooting for yourself then that may not be a dealbreaker that anybody considering equipping themselves for professional work needs to place performance at the top of the list before assessing sensor characteristics.
 
Lindsay D said:
I personally found the slowness of the EM1 pretty crippling for this kind of thing as well as the performance of the EVF, there were several other niggles which may or may not relate to how you do things. In my view there are much better options, but as has been said if it suits your way of doing things then that is what matters. Maybe find a way of trying it out before you buy.
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The EM1 is not good for low light? what do you mean by better options?

I'm only speculating as to use at the moment, I have been spoiled by the 5dm3.
 
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dancook said:
Yes better results have me wanting 200mm f2 but it's not practical for all situations. Like when you can't step back.

You can get enough DOF for a person 3/4 to full body with 1.2 85mm. So it's not necessarily too thin, and you get your nice bokeh.
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Done, as I mentioned in my article the problems arise in situations like weddings all photographs containing more than one subject - in the context of this discussion you would need to stop down in those situations
dancook said:
The EM1 is not good for low light? what do you mean by better options?

I'm only speculating as to use at the moment, I have been spoiled by the 5dm3.
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Oh god - sorry - I meant the XE1!! Sorry about that Dan - I'd better go and edit my post if I can. Therefore in terms of better options I was of course meaning the OMDs or similar.
 
dancook said:
I have been spoiled by the 5dm3.
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So have I - crippling RSI and damage to the nerves in my neck and back.

If you're shooting professionally every week I think it's important to consider the potential for physical damage. You look like a big strong guy but that doesn't always protect you from injury - my injuries were likely to end my career (and have put paid to me doing an awful lot of the things I used to take for granted) so I'm grateful for the timely development of mirrorless.
 
Lindsay D said:
Oh god - sorry - I meant the XE1!! Sorry about that Dan - I'd better go and edit my post if I can. Therefore in terms of better options I was of course meaning the OMDs or similar.
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You had me worried then! :)

I'm about to pull the trigger on the em-1..

So just to confirm what I suggest seems reasonable? 85mm 1.2 for my shallow DOF look whilst swapping to the EM-1 whenever I need more DOF (normally group shots). This being something I imagine I'd be doing a lot during the evening getting candids and such.
 
dancook said:
You had me worried then! :)

I'm about to pull the trigger on the em-1..

So just to confirm what I suggest seems reasonable? 85mm 1.2 for my shallow DOF look whilst swapping to the EM-1 whenever I need more DOF (normally group shots). This being something I imagine I'd be doing a lot during the evening getting candids and such.
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It's only reasonable if you're prepared to bear the expense of maintaining two different systems with appropriate redundancy - that's going to be based on your ROI and also whether or not you feel that you still need the full frame setup. I haven't used my full frame equipment in over a year, it's currently used by trainees but I will need to let it go.

To be honest you would not need to swap to the EM1 for group shots, you could just stop down the FF kit.

Much of it comes down to how much weight you are prepared to carry throughout the day.
 
Dan I recommend you hire first because it may not fit with your style and you are certainly creating a unique style with your street photography.
 
Lindsay D said:
It's only reasonable if you're prepared to bear the expense of maintaining two different systems with appropriate redundancy - that's going to be based on your ROI and also whether or not you feel that you still need the full frame setup. I haven't used my full frame equipment in over a year, it's currently used by trainees but I will need to let it go.

To be honest you would not need to swap to the EM1 for group shots, you could just stop down the FF kit.

Much of it comes down to how much weight you are prepared to carry throughout the day.
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Thanks for all your help Lindsay, and everyone else too.

ROI is a sore point ;) this is my first Wedding I'm shooting - then who knows! However I forsee other uses for the camera too, street, long walks, cities with higher than comfortable crime rates (my tolerance is low)..

If I didn't get the EM-1 I'd need to rent another (probably 5dm3) for the wedding, as I see less sense buying a 2nd one at the moment. The cost of renting just makes the EM-1 seem that bit cheaper to buy instead.
 
Hahhaa... Maybe go and try in store somewhere if you can then take shots of customers coming in and out and staff... just don't f up your style ok ;):p
 
Tintin124 said:
Hahhaa... Maybe go and try in store somewhere if you can then take shots of customers coming in and out and staff... just don't f up your style ok ;):p
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What have you done Bryn!! :) this was a concern of mine.. and now the pressure is on

Wait.. no pressure - I'm not selling my 5dm3.. and I can sell the EM-1 if I get to a point that I'm not happy with it... ok rationalised!
 
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dancook said:
Thanks for all your help Lindsay, and everyone else too.

ROI is a sore point ;) this is my first Wedding I'm shooting - then who knows! However I forsee other uses for the camera too, street, long walks, cities with higher than comfortable crime rates (my tolerance is low)..

If I didn't get the EM-1 I'd need to rent another (probably 5dm3) for the wedding, as I see less sense buying a 2nd one at the moment. The cost of renting just makes the EM-1 seem that bit cheaper to buy instead.
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You're very welcome Dan. ROI is an interesting one and I would argue that the return need not always be financial if you are likely to benefit from owning the equipment in other ways - we are still entitled to have things simply because we like them and enjoy them. :)
 
I recently did the same thing - when my main bag (at the time a Lowepro Magnum, 25kg fully loaded) started doing damage to my shoulder and back I moved to a roller bag (and added more kit to fill it) but because of the sheer bulk it became a burden rather than a pleasure and as such only came out for work assignments

I tried a few cameras in a day bag (mainly smaller Nikons) but eventually settled on a Fuji X Pro 1 with a few lenses and am very happy with the setup, of course this does mean working with 2 systems but I'm finding that where possible, I'm reaching for the Fuji and only using the big kit when I really have to
 
Lindsay D said:
- we are still entitled to have things simply because we like them and enjoy them. :)
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This I very much agree with and for me has worked two fold, firstly I'm really enjoying the X Pro 1 and it's making me feel very refreshed in my personal photography, secondly when I do use the D800E and 'big kit' I'm enjoying using it and apprecating it much more - the only downside is the amount of money tied up in maintaining two systems but I like to think I'm worth it ;)
 
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dancook said:
What have you done Bryn!! :) this was a concern of mine.. and now the pressure is on

Wait.. no pressure - I'm not selling my 5dm3.. and I can sell the EM-1 if I get to a point that I'm not happy with it... ok rationalised!
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Whhhhhhyyyyyyyyy?
lmao

:whistle::p:p:p:p:p
 
dancook said:
I'm only speculating as to use at the moment, I have been spoiled by the 5dm3.
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If you have a 5D MKIII and a 35 then why not use that? No mirrorless is going to top that combination. I'd use the money you would spend on another system and go abroad on holiday.
 
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