Copyright!

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4,970
Name
Terri
Edit My Images
Yes
Ok we all know how i misunderstand things.. but please help me here. i know it is only FB but!!!

I belong to a FB page that has rather alot of pictures on it that the page owner nor anyone to do with has taken. i have said that well it's not the done thing the responce i got was in essence " no one will come after me" ( not exact words"

i was trying to tell them to remove or ask permisson am i wrong in this or is it ok??? i sort of know the answer just what it confirmed
 
I've been emailing photographers if you can track them down with links to the page.

One photographer was a user on here. They can then use the report button.

I know I would appreciate the heads up.
 
I usually email/Flickrmail the photographer if I can trace them, I've done this when a new local magazine started ripping local images from Flickr - spotted when I recognised a shot I knew had been taken by a Flickr contact.
 
with FB, you can report the image as not being the person on the pages intellectual property, i once had someone, who took 36 images from my website, and they must have prt screen every one of them, i found the persons page reported every image as my property and told FB that i was the owner of those images and wanted them removed. they did take the images off the page i linked too. FB will not want a copyright claim against them.
 
right i see. so say they have copied or uploaded from say a major sporting website or say Getty is that still ok or not? i am thinking not but am unsure.
 
You could try dropping a few of the images through TinEye, for FB hosted images you might need to download them to submit them to TinEye. It's not perfect, but with a large enough sample it has a good chance of letting you track down one or two of the photographers.
 
well i just emailed a couple of the larger companies as FB says if is not my IP then i can't report it. Sounds daft i know but it is the attitude that has got to me more.. he is a very experianced amature photographer he says so knows what he is talking about..
 
for some reason i can't get onto FB to try the tiny eye thing. and not wanting to get in to a witch hunt and or trouble with the Admin of TP i am not going to post which page it is. for anyone who has me as a friend on FB and really wants to know it would take alot to find out.
 
If there's one thing I have noticed about the comments on this forum, and photographers in general, it's that as a group, there seem to be some very weird idea's about copyright.

Just becuase you take a picture, does not mean you have copyright of that picture!!!!! There is a hierachy of laws and precident around ownership of IP ( Intellectual property ). I deal with similar issues for software, and it takes a team of 6 lawyers working full time to untangle the very complex mess that is cpyright law so that I don't do anything to breach a copyright.


In this specific case, the pictures have been posted to Facebook. Facebook's T+C's exert full control over the images posted to facebook - see below.

If I take a picture, and post it to Facebook, then I have granted the rights to that image to facebook. If that upsets me, I don't have to put the image to facebook - no one is forcing me.

If someone posts a picture I took to facebook, the image is STILL now the property of facebook.
If I don't like that, I can either track down the guy who posted my picture up, and biff him in the nose, or I can raise a small claims case against him for future loss of earnings - but *thats between me and him" - ITS STILL FACEBOOKS IMAGE.

"You hereby grant Facebook an irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, fully paid, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to (a) use, copy, publish, stream, store, retain, publicly perform or display, transmit, scan, reformat, modify, edit, frame, translate, excerpt, adapt, create derivative works and distribute (through multiple tiers), any User Content you (i) Post on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion thereof subject only to your privacy settings or (ii) enable a user to Post, including by offering a Share Link on your website and (b) to use your name, likeness and image for any purpose, including commercial or advertising, each of (a) and (b) on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion thereof."
 
Just becuase you take a picture, does not mean you have copyright of that picture!!!!!

umm, yes it does?

In this specific case, the pictures have been posted to Facebook. Facebook's T+C's exert full control over the images posted to facebook - see below.

If I take a picture, and post it to Facebook, then I have granted the rights to that image to facebook. If that upsets me, I don't have to put the image to facebook - no one is forcing me.

If someone posts a picture I took to facebook, the image is STILL now the property of facebook.
If I don't like that, I can either track down the guy who posted my picture up, and biff him in the nose, or I can raise a small claims case against him for future loss of earnings - but *thats between me and him" - ITS STILL FACEBOOKS IMAGE.

"You hereby grant Facebook an irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, fully paid, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to (a) use, copy, publish, stream, store, retain, publicly perform or display, transmit, scan, reformat, modify, edit, frame, translate, excerpt, adapt, create derivative works and distribute (through multiple tiers), any User Content you (i) Post on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion thereof subject only to your privacy settings or (ii) enable a user to Post, including by offering a Share Link on your website and (b) to use your name, likeness and image for any purpose, including commercial or advertising, each of (a) and (b) on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion thereof."

if its not their copyright in the first place (how many photographers sell the copyright with photos, not many) how can they give permission for facebook to use it? hence the report button and the "How to report claims of intellectual property infringement" page here - http://www.facebook.com/legal/copyright.php
 
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Just becuase you take a picture, does not mean you have copyright of that picture!!!!!

It does unless a specific contract/waiver means you are taking the photo but someone else own's the copyright.


As for facebook - if the copyright is not mine in the first place I don't have the rights to upload the photo and grant them the copyright
 
umm, yes it does?


No - it doesn't. You might want it to, but it still doesn't.

OFTEN it does - but it's not a default. If you take a picture of a tin of soup, there is a hierarchy of possible ownerships, or splits of the ownership of that picture. It depends on how you assert your rights, how the manufactuer of the tin of soup has set up their company, and from what country they did it, how they registered their trade marks and image rights etc etc.

If you take a picture of me, and I'm fine with you doing that, then you implicitly own that image. You can go forth and make merry with it as you see fit. But... I can select to assert rights over that photo - becuase it's a picture of me. If I sign a release form, then you do have rights.
If I choose to, I can take a picture of myself and submit it to any image hosting website, and class the picture as "Creative Commons" - Creative Commons has a derivate works section to it - which would suggest that any future pictures of me - lets say you get a picture of me next year - would also need to be issued under creative commons as well. In theory, you are prohibited by law from even attempting to put a "copyright Joe Bloggs" banner on it.

If you take a picture of many federal buildings in the states, the US government owns the image rights. If you take a picture of a painting in a UK *public* art gallery which is owned by the state, and you are a UK citizen, and the artist has been dead longer than 50 years, you can do with the image as you see fit. But if that image is on loan from a private collection, then the IP belongs to the owner of the original picture, no matter what the vital signs of the artist.



The reason for all of the point examples above is to re-emphasise the point I tried to make. There is a HUGE amount of legal structure in place around the concept of copyright. There is a hierarchy of laws. These are also dependant on the subject of the photo, the ownership of that subject, your nationality, the country you took the photo in etc etc etc etc etc

To make such as sweeping statement as "I own the copyright" is generally going to be incorrect. At best you can say

"I *think* I own the copyright, and in general, no one is going to make a fuss unless my picture is worth millions, at which point, the lawyers will have to thrash it all out"


f its not their copyright in the first place (how many photographers sell the copyright with photos, not many) how can they give permission for facebook to use it? hence the report button and the "How to report claims of intellectual property infringement" page here - http://www.facebook.com/legal/copyright.php

That doesn't matter. The image has become facebook's. Which is why I said about the small claims court - If I upload a photo that you took to facebook, then it's facebooks. You can look to me to make restitution to you, and facebook probably will look after you and take down the image - but they don't have to.


<<edit...>>

The last two posts talk about "permission" - that permission for copyright to be moved around is granted.

There is a huge muddle of laws regarding this, and generally there is no fully accepted common law on it. Which means it all comes down to contracts. If you haven't signed a hefty contract, your likely not protected as much as you think. When you sign up for facebook - as an example - you sign up to a 6,000 word contract, with more than 1/3 of that talking about IP ownership.

Again - I say this to raise the point - just becuase you assume, or would like, copyright to work in a certain way, one that to you feels fair, then it doesn't mean a thing. Only contracts written by lawyers mean much at all, and even then it's going to get messy in a court if someone really does care.

I'm not saying that I agree with this system - I don't. I work in software design, and it's even worse in that world when it comes to copyright and patents than it is in the world of pictures - which is why we have a group of lawyers on the next back of desks to our development teams. I'm just saying that lots of lawyers get very rich from copyright law, and rich lawyers ALWAYS means that something is very complicated.


I will ask one of the legal eagles that I work with to sign up for this forum and write some sort of "your basic rights for copyright" if anyone wants me to?
 
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model releases have no legal grunt in this country from what i remember. yeah okay you may be right about photographs of trademarks but really when is that a problem on facebook.

im pretty sure my point still stands, if the person who uploaded the photo is doing so without owning the copyright then it is not theirs to transfer ownership. why else would facebook be so hot about removing stuff that the intellectual owner reports?

no offence but can you back up what youre saying with links to legistlation?
 
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I may be wrong, but I think there is a little confusion here......

Scenario 1 - I upload a picture to my page on Facebook. That picture is then used by someone else on their Facebook page. Do I own the image? Well Facebook T&C's, from what I understand would mean that Facebook have 'rights' over the image when I uploaded it so, in essence I can't really complain - though as with anything I can still ask Facebook to remove it (it's their site after all and they may do it out of goodwill but don't 'legally' have to as far as I can see.

Scenario 2 - I have a picture somewhere else on the Internet, flickr for example, someone takes that image and puts it on their Facebook page. In this case the person had no right to use that image on their Facebook therefore no rights have been transferred and Facebook must remove it.

The above are 'general' examples, and I might be wrong, but that's my general understanding.

I've always thought, regarding Facebook images, don't upload anything there that you don't want to give up. The T&C's seem to be worded so that anything uploaded becomes facebooks to do with as they wish!

My take anyway!

Regards

Neil
 
no offence but can you back up what youre saying with links to legistlation?

No offence taken.

I have asked one of our legal bods to give me some links. He is wearing a pin stipe suit in the middle of an office full of programmers, so you can tell he's a proper lawyer. His advice is - and I quote - "It's NEVER simple - if in doubt, check with a solicitor".

This is how I think copyright law should act - what most people think is correct:

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law

which all seems nice and simple


BUT, the actual law contains a vast amount of caveats:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents

Also - if your thinking about publishing on the net:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Economy_Act_2010

This also interacts with european union law, which would seem to either over-ride, or not over-ride UK law depending on a series of factors which I am not sure of:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2001:167:0010:0019:EN:PDF

But there are also additional articles ( like amendments ) which go along side of this. If you were to post something up onto the internet - for example if you published your picture of a tin of soup to Flickr, and you were based in the UK, you would also need to comply to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Commerce_Regulations_2002


With Facebook, which is US based, there is also US copyright to get taken into account:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

which may or may not over-ride the other laws, depending on which country you are from - for example if you are UK based, the US and UK have a series of treaties regarding copyright law just between the two countries.



Like I say - I am not an expert, but I do work with experts - and their advice seems to be not to assume anything, as there is a lot of complexity.
 
He is wearing a pin stipe suit in the middle of an office full of programmers, so you can tell he's a proper lawyer. His advice is - and I quote - "It's NEVER simple - if in doubt, check with a solicitor".

He would say that, wouldn't he? :D
 
Thanks for all that info, Slow Steve.

I have always been slightly uncomfortable about the way folk on this site have written about copyright, so far.
 
Blooming heck..

right the pictures in question have been lifted from other sites not FB and so therefor FB has no rights over them but as i do not have the IP i can't do anything on FB. And the reason i was getting so annoyed was the attitude of the Admin of the FB page. (well one of them) his attidue is i can and will take any photos i want. and stuff the photographers
 
No - it doesn't. You might want it to, but it still doesn't.

OFTEN it does - but it's not a default. If you take a picture of a tin of soup, there is a hierarchy of possible ownerships, or splits of the ownership of that picture. It depends on how you assert your rights, how the manufactuer of the tin of soup has set up their company, and from what country they did it, how they registered their trade marks and image rights etc etc.

It depends on intent - if you take a photo of the tin and nothing else then that comes under IP, if it is a tin in an entire pantry or on a windowsil of a kitchen then it's not.

If you take a picture of me, and I'm fine with you doing that, then you implicitly own that image. You can go forth and make merry with it as you see fit. But... I can select to assert rights over that photo - becuase it's a picture of me. If I sign a release form, then you do have rights.

Buncum and totally wrong


That doesn't matter. The image has become facebook's. Which is why I said about the small claims court - If I upload a photo that you took to facebook, then it's facebooks. You can look to me to make restitution to you, and facebook probably will look after you and take down the image - but they don't have to.

In that case someone else rip all the well selling images on the internet and give them to my website to sell (with pretty much same T&C's as facebook). I am immune to any comeback according to your logic :cuckoo:

If the copyright is not mine to give away FB can't claim it - no contract or T&C could ever incorporate this despite their claims that it does.

I'll 'sell'you the copyright to most of Ansel Adam's works if you want, only £500 for everything
 
"You hereby grant Facebook an irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, fully paid, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to (a) use, copy, publish, stream, store, retain, publicly perform or display, transmit, scan, reformat, modify, edit, frame, translate, excerpt, adapt, create derivative works and distribute (through multiple tiers), any User Content you (i) Post on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion thereof subject only to your privacy settings or (ii) enable a user to Post, including by offering a Share Link on your website and (b) to use your name, likeness and image for any purpose, including commercial or advertising, each of (a) and (b) on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion thereof."

Note that this is NOT transferring copyright to Facebook, it is assigning them a (very broad) licence. Copyright is still retained by the original holder.

Only the copyright holder (or someone who has a licence from the copyright holder that includes a sub-licence clause) has the right to grant such a licence. Just because Facebook (or any other organisation) claims something in the small print does not mean it overrides existing law.
 
Note that this is NOT transferring copyright to Facebook, it is assigning them a (very broad) licence. Copyright is still retained by the original holder.

...and, if it did say 'I hereby surrender copyright' and you clicked on the 'I agree to these terms and conditions' (as it does on many rights-grab photo competitions) button then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on anyway.
 
BUT, the actual law contains a vast amount of caveats:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents

having a quick look through that i cant see anything that answers my question about the photographer not having copyright of authored work in this instance?

going back to what someone said earlier i think there may be some crossed wires. just to clarify the issue at hand is that someone has rehosted work that is not their own by saving the image from one site and then rehosting on facebook.

for example i take photos at certain events, photos are then put on a website for purchase. a lot of the time people save those images without paying for them onto their computer and then rehost them on facebook (or wherever).

now as i understand it as author of that work i am entitled to go about seeking the image is either removed or paid for. are you saying that is not the case?
 
No - it doesn't. You might want it to, but it still doesn't.

OFTEN it does - but it's not a default. If you take a picture of a tin of soup, there is a hierarchy of possible ownerships, or splits of the ownership of that picture. It depends on how you assert your rights, how the manufactuer of the tin of soup has set up their company, and from what country they did it, how they registered their trade marks and image rights etc etc.

trademark != copyright

Introducing Trademarks into the discussion does nothing to illuminate questions of copyright. They are quite distinct branches of law.

If you take a picture of me, and I'm fine with you doing that, then you implicitly own that image. You can go forth and make merry with it as you see fit. But... I can select to assert rights over that photo - becuase it's a picture of me. If I sign a release form, then you do have rights.
If I choose to, I can take a picture of myself and submit it to any image hosting website, and class the picture as "Creative Commons" - Creative Commons has a derivate works section to it - which would suggest that any future pictures of me - lets say you get a picture of me next year - would also need to be issued under creative commons as well. In theory, you are prohibited by law from even attempting to put a "copyright Joe Bloggs" banner on it.

Excuse me, but WTF?

You seem to have confused a poor understanding of some elements of the GPL licence with the real world.

If you take a picture of many federal buildings in the states, the US government owns the image rights.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

If you take a picture of a painting in a UK *public* art gallery which is owned by the state, and you are a UK citizen, and the artist has been dead longer than 50 years, you can do with the image as you see fit. But if that image is on loan from a private collection, then the IP belongs to the owner of the original picture, no matter what the vital signs of the artist.

:gag:



That doesn't matter. The image has become facebook's. Which is why I said about the small claims court - If I upload a photo that you took to facebook, then it's facebooks. You can look to me to make restitution to you, and facebook probably will look after you and take down the image - but they don't have to.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

- Someone uploads one of your photos to Facebook.

- The Telegraph lifts that copy from Facebook and publishes it.

- In your world, you can't invoice (or, ultimately, sue) the Telegraph, because it is now Facebook's image, not yours.


I'm not saying that I agree with this system - I don't. I work in software design, and it's even worse in that world when it comes to copyright and patents than it is in the world of pictures - which is why we have a group of lawyers on the next back of desks to our development teams.

I'm glad you do have lawyers working for your company. You need them.
 
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It depends on intent - if you take a photo of the tin and nothing else then that comes under IP, if it is a tin in an entire pantry or on a windowsil of a kitchen then it's not.



Buncum and totally wrong

<<It's "Bumkun" by the way>>

:shake::shake::shake:

I had a horrible feeling this would happen - hence my first comment about the way that I see a lot of togs talking about copyright....

It's not wrong. It's just not in line with the way you see it/would like it to be.

There was a case approximately 2 years ago - reported on a number of the tech sites - regarding some pictures taken of a hersheys chocolate bar, which end up as a background shot in some computer program. Hersey's sued to control their IP - part of the case was copyright infringement. Hersheys won. Developor had to pay a percentage of the program's revenue.

Now - thats US law. Part of the list of legals I posted was the EU copyright framework, which is pretty close - I am told by the man in the pin stripe suit who is sitting 5 desks away from me - to the US laws.

I said above that there seems to be nothing cut and dried. But I think what it really comes down to is "How much does the IP owner care?"

If you take a picture of a pantry, and it has a tin of hienz beans in it, then - in theory - hienz can argue out, along with all the other trademark holders, for a small percentage of the mearge income that that picture will make.

Or - they could consider it free advertising.

But generally, they simply will not care enough, or even know, so nothing will happen.

If they DID want something to happen, it would rewuire legal people, and paperwork, and money to be spent. Who cares enough?

If your picture all of a sudden, for reasons unknown, becomes worth millions, then maybe they will care.

But... it's not up to you.


And NOWHERE will you ever see a legal framework ( to the best of my knowledge - see below ) discussing copyright where there is special rules based on intent.

<<Caveat - I have to work within these frameworks day-in and day-out for UK, Spain, US, Canada, Chile, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand and Argentina. Certainly none of these countries frameworks deal with intent. Possibly other countires do >>


In that case someone else rip all the well selling images on the internet and give them to my website to sell (with pretty much same T&C's as facebook). I am immune to any comeback according to your logic :cuckoo:

If the copyright is not mine to give away FB can't claim it - no contract or T&C could ever incorporate this despite their claims that it does.

I'll 'sell'you the copyright to most of Ansel Adam's works if you want, only £500 for everything

Could do - but the images that are well selling are... well... worth something. So someone would actually bother and get lawyers to sort it out. And then it would be a multi-way argument. In your example, it would be an issue of the Ansel Adams Publishing Rights Trust, you and whoever published the images.

No where did I say that you ( or facebook in the initial example ) would be immunue ( although in the case of Facebook, the DMCA would probably give them a lot of cover ). I'm just saying that it's all of a sudden got very messy. Because there are a set of T+C's from your site, and a set of T+C's for Mr Adam's trust which would be clashing.


Not going to post on this thread any more - I seem to be raising hackles, which is not my intention. So I will just say close out by saying....

Copyright is no where near as simple as it seems, or that it should be. It's complicated, and if you do care, then check with a legal guy.
 
so in theroy i take a picture of a tomato o grew and some bread i baked anyone can take that picture from my flicker account and use it and i have no come back?????
 
in the case of the heinz can in the pantry analogy, i seem to remember reading that the heinz can would have to be the main focus of the image for them to complain? i.e. a close up of the can rather than it being in the background in amoungst other pantry items?
 
There was a case approximately 2 years ago - reported on a number of the tech sites - regarding some pictures taken of a hersheys chocolate bar, which end up as a background shot in some computer program. Hersey's sued to control their IP - part of the case was copyright infringement. Hersheys won. Developor had to pay a percentage of the program's revenue.

[emphasis added]

a) I don't remember the case and can't find it on Google or The Register (who would have fun with that kind of thing). If you can find a citation, I'd welcome it.

b) I am 99% sure that, should the case have happened, it would have beeen a Trademark dispute, and not copyright, unless the photograph used in the software was itself owned by Hershey Co.
 
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I have read through most of the thread and it seems people are confusing copyright and trademark.

COPYRIGHT (UK) You have automatic copyright of and image taken by you unless the following two apply.

1. You have signed a contract with some one to pass all copyright of images you are taking that are covered in the contract.
EG Fred signs a contract with Burt giving him automatic copyright of images Fred is taking of Burts company.

2. You are an employee of a company and you are taking photographs on behalf of said company as part of your employment.

EG Fred works for Burt as a mechanic, but today Fred gives Burt a camera and tells him "your work for today is to take photographs of all repairs being done"

Now the can of tomatoes - you can take the image as ever you want to, close up or far away. The image is your copyright. The confusion I have been reading comes from bring trademark law into it. If my copyrighted image is used for public display (paid or un paid) the owners of said tin of tomatoes could if they so wish complain/sue/ etc etc however just because some ones trademark is visible in a photograph it does not give them any rights to how you use that image or can stop you using said image. Simply put the trademark owner (can of tomatoes LTD) must prove you are using there trademark in a improper fashion/profiting purely from there trademark/passing yourself of as them by using there trademark/ using there trademark as yours etc etc
Easiest way to think of it is, imagine how many millions of photographs there are with a "Ford motor car" in, can Ford sue every single one of them or demand everyone is removed from the web. Answer NO.

I Take a photograph of you - (UK) The image is copyright the photographer

You have no power in what I do with this photograph unless....

1. It was taken of you in a private situation. This is any where you can rightly assume to have privacy. EG in your home/on the toilet etc etc but not walking down the local high street.

2. I use/post said image in a manner that demeans you. EG I post it on a sex website or I cut and paste you into another photograph that results in an image being demeaning EG you having sex with a animal etc etc

3. The nature I take the image is causing you harassment. This is hard to prove, just image if it was easy there would be no paparazzi to annoy the superstars.

There is a fourth but that is very complex so I have left it out.


FB - By agreeing to the terms and conditions you are not giving away your copyright you are giving FB (FB ONLY)permission to use your image (if they so wish) in various different ways. Now if someone else uploads one of your images to FB without your permission then you have the right to ask FB to remove the image. FB however can not be held accountable if they have used that image. The terms state
You will not post content or take any action on Facebook that infringes or violates someone else's rights or otherwise violates the law.

So if some one uploads and image they are claiming it to be there's and not infringing any ones rights. FB can only except them to be true to there word. if this was not like this sites such as this and Flickr could not exist.
All the above is UK based only.

Cheers

Rob

PS just a side note if you don't want your photo taken in public move to Germany as it is illegal there to take a photograph of a person anywhere without there permission.
 
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