Copyrights and redundant employees

frank

frank

Messages
2,498
Edit My Images
Yes
A while back my son's company was having their website refurbished, they hired a so called Pro' upshot was he was a idiot who didn't know how to use a camera and his photos were useless.

As I was friendly with his boss but not a employee I was shown the pro's photos and pretty disgusted with them for what he charged. I offered to go round taking photos for free since my son's boss had looked after my son rewarding him with promotions (which he earned btw) during his employment. No fee was discussed or copyrights for the photos nor was any contract made verbal or otherwise, it was a favour to a friend. Many of the photos I took are being used on the company website.

A year down the line and the company was bought over by a bunch of cowboys, my son being made redundant along with the rest of the staff he decided to go into business on his own doing the job he was doing before.
The new company now have the old company website and my photos that went with it but the photos were reduced for the web size only. I still have the original full sized photos, no-one else. Can I legally use them to put on a website for my son's new business or can the new company raise objections?

Strange thing is I still have Ftp acces to their webspace as it appears they have not changed usernames or passwords :nuts::nuts: I could reall close it down if I wished but that's being a bit naughty.:suspect:
 
Or you could remove all of your images :) And they they can pay someone to provide them all over again :)
 
Hmmm, I know it's probably not the done thing but I would atleast prevent them using the images any further if you know what I mean.
 
I would not close the site down, that in my opinion mightbe one step too far, but you could remove the images with a covering email to them telling them why and if they want the pics the fee will be £?????

spike
 
No knowing the full details, the potential can of worms is the start-up company misrepresenting itself by using photographs relating to the other company. But without knowing what the photos are of, it's difficult to tell.

Is there any reason why you couldn't take fresh photos for the new start-up?

Do you want to retain a degree of goodwill with the new owners of the old company, or is your son in a position where he can say, "**** 'em"?
 
I've no reason or wish to appear obnoxious to the new firm and I'm prepared to leave things and the photos they have as they are.
Taking new photos would mean going into their showroom to take photos of products Windows and Doors and related ironmongery for a competitor to use, which btw he will be using the some of the same windows and door types and suppliers for his own business, he was number two in command of the old company so he knows all the suppliers well. Somehow I can't see the new people giving permission and I wouldn't blame them. :) They probably don't know I'm the guy who did the photos for their website. There is nothing in the photos to identify the company name. I'm trying encourage hime to get in touch with suppliers to allow him to edvertise ther products on his site and hopefully reciprocal links.

My son has no ill feeling to the new owners, they probably did him a favour making him go into business for himself. I would just like to be able to use some of the original photos perhaps cropping etc on some of them to suit his new site...when done.

The naughty part at the end of my first post was in jest as I was allowed access to their site. If I took over a new website/domain the first thing I'd do is change the username and passwords.
 
Last edited:
You took the pictures for free, i know your son is now leaving but demanding money or getting them taken down does come across a bit like throwing a rattle from the pram so to speak.

That said i cant see why you couldnt use the same pictures as you own the copyright.
 
Think I'd just move on, and use the images for the new website if you want to.

The new owners may not realise that they don't have title, or a license to use them, so I'd be prepared for some sort of reaction when they find out. I suppose you could just explain the situation to them, and say that - being magnanimous - you will permit them to continue using your images for the time being anyway, unless you change your mind!
 
as far as i know...as you own the copyright it it up to you to use them as you wish.....the only thing i would advise against is doing a similar style web site with the same wording etc in the contact pages etc.....My friend has just had this happened to her and it took her five years to develop and gain a page one on google, then the guy who coded it sold the code to her competitor.....guess who is going to court.....
 
archangel said:
as far as i know...as you own the copyright it it up to you to use them as you wish.....the only thing i would advise against is doing a similar style web site with the same wording etc in the contact pages etc.....My friend has just had this happened to her and it took her five years to develop and gain a page one on google, then the guy who coded it sold the code to her competitor.....guess who is going to court.....
Click to expand...

This could be considered to be passing off, and it's a legitimate point.
 
SAVA9E said:
You took the pictures for free, i know your son is now leaving but demanding money or getting them taken down does come across a bit like throwing a rattle from the pram so to speak.

Er! I don't think I said I was demanding money or asking them to take them down did I ?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I'm pretty sure that when the ownership of a company changes, the legal entity of the company itself remains unchanged so any assets and liabilities stay the same. Any photos that the company owns will stay the same, regardless of ownership of the company.
 
boliston said:
I'm pretty sure that when the ownership of a company changes, the legal entity of the company itself remains unchanged so any assets and liabilities stay the same. Any photos that the company owns will stay the same, regardless of ownership of the company.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, the new owners bought the company including all assets and that would include the website and all images on it (unless they had breached copyright, not applicable in this case).
Nothing to stop you reusing the images though as you still own the copyright. Do the images include the showroom and if so would it be recognisable?
 
PaulF said:
I agree with this, the new owners bought the company including all assets and that would include the website and all images on it (unless they had breached copyright, not applicable in this case).
Nothing to stop you reusing the images though as you still own the copyright. Do the images include the showroom and if so would it be recognisable?
Click to expand...

No, showroom is not really shown as a showroom if you get my meaning, all the photos were cropped for the site. All that's seen is the product which I imagine various companies use, there is nothing to identify the company.
I suppose I could crop some of the photos even tighter to make them appear slightly different if I re-use them.

Some interesting replies but I must emphasise when my son's new site is made it will be nothing like his old employers site.
 
hollis_f said:
You made a verbal contract when you offered to do the work for free.
Click to expand...

Not true - in English law you can't have any kind of contract without a consideration (ie payment or exchange of goods).

I'm pretty sure (from all that revision testing I gave the wife during her IP exams), that you would still own the copyright in this situation.

That said, Google pagerank may very well penalise your new website if it's very similar to an existing one, which is probably the best reason not to do it, or make sure the pictures are altered before reuse.
 
rex008 said:
Not true - in English law you can't have any kind of contract without a consideration (ie payment or exchange of goods).

I'm pretty sure (from all that revision testing I gave the wife during her IP exams), that you would still own the copyright in this situation.

That said, Google pagerank may very well penalise your new website if it's very similar to an existing one, which is probably the best reason not to do it, or make sure the pictures are altered before reuse.
Click to expand...

It could be argued that the consideration was granting access to the "showroom" or a cup of coffee or anything similar. consideration doesn't have to be substantial or even proportional, it just has to exist.
 
It has already been mentioned that the new owners may be unaware of the origins of the photographs they have, particularly as there was only a 'verbal contact' on use of them.

Perhaps it would be an idea to send then a polite letter 'for their records', outlining the terms of the 'licence' they have to use the photos (EG They can use them on the website as is, and have no other rights to them, you retain copyright and right to use/ sell elsewhere, etc.).
 
rex008 said:
Not true - in English law you can't have any kind of contract without a consideration (ie payment or exchange of goods).
Click to expand...

The OP is in Scotland and Scots law is very differdent.
 
Frank the important part here is that you never sold the copyright of the images - You verbally agreed to allow the company to use the iamges for their web site. And that is fine. I would let them continue to use the images.

The image copyright lies with the photographer. You have the images to prove that should anyone say anything. they have nothing to prove otherwise.

The images are yours to use as you wish.
 
Faldrax said:
It has already been mentioned that the new owners may be unaware of the origins of the photographs they have, particularly as there was only a 'verbal contact' on use of them.

Perhaps it would be an idea to send then a polite letter 'for their records', outlining the terms of the 'licence' they have to use the photos (EG They can use them on the website as is, and have no other rights to them, you retain copyright and right to use/ sell elsewhere, etc.).
Click to expand...

Not really any need. They have nothing to prove what rights they have to use them.
 
The OP said he's not looking for money, and is quite content to let the new owners use the images they already have. He just wanted to know if he could use them for his son's new website.

I can't see any problem. The OP owns the copyright, and hasn't sold or transferred it to anyone else, or given the business any sort of exclusive licence. I'd just go ahead and use the images. The new owners of the business may complain, but they don't really have a leg to stand on.
 
MartynK said:
The OP said he's not looking for money, and is quite content to let the new owners use the images they already have. He just wanted to know if he could use them for his son's new website.

I can't see any problem. The OP owns the copyright, and hasn't sold or transferred it to anyone else, or given the business any sort of exclusive licence. I'd just go ahead and use the images. The new owners of the business may complain, but they don't really have a leg to stand on.
Click to expand...

:thumbs:
 
EOS_JD said:
Not really any need. They have nothing to prove what rights they have to use them.
Click to expand...

Equally they have nothing to say what rights they don't have.
From their viewpoint, they have a set of images which are used on their website - and are specific to items they sell, so it's not unreasonable to assume they have rights to use them.

If you do simply leave it, then use them on your son's website, and then get into a disagreement about rights to them, the only real winners could be the solicitors / lawyers who get to sort it out!

Yes, you would probably win any case (since you have the high res originals I assume), but a letter now might save time and effort later.
 
Do you really need to use the original photos?
If not then save yourself and your son the potential of awful problems down the line if the new company starts to try it on, (which they may view as being perfectly legit!).
Oh and don't ever go to their website and change anything ... it's illegal.
 
Faldrax said:
Equally they have nothing to say what rights they don't have.
From their viewpoint, they have a set of images which are used on their website - and are specific to items they sell, so it's not unreasonable to assume they have rights to use them.

If you do simply leave it, then use them on your son's website, and then get into a disagreement about rights to them, the only real winners could be the solicitors / lawyers who get to sort it out!

Yes, you would probably win any case (since you have the high res originals I assume), but a letter now might save time and effort later.
Click to expand...

Possibly, if you are confident that the company will accept your letter in the spirit of your intentions, but that's not a given. It could just open a can of worms - by highlighting something they hadn't even thought about - and be construed as admitting that you foresee the possibility of a dispute.

I'd just go ahead, and deal with any challenge if it arises. There shouldn't be any need for legal representation. Just write a friendly, but firm, letter pointing out that you took the photographs and gave the company permission to use them on their website as a personal favour; you own the copyright and all the associated rights; in terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, and that you never granted them an exclusive licence to use the images. You could also say that they may continue to use them on this basis, but that they have no grounds to challenge your right to use the images in any way you see fit, and that you will hold them liable for any legal costs you incur.
 
Last edited:
Faldrax said:
Equally they have nothing to say what rights they don't have.
Click to expand...

The copyright is with the OP which he can prove with the origuinal images. That's all that is required.

Faldrax said:
From their viewpoint, they have a set of images which are used on their website - and are specific to items they sell, so it's not unreasonable to assume they have rights to use them.
Click to expand...

No argument bt they cannot prove they have a right to exclusivity.

Faldrax said:
If you do simply leave it, then use them on your son's website, and then get into a disagreement about rights to them, the only real winners could be the solicitors / lawyers who get to sort it out!
Click to expand...

Not the case. f they can PROVE they have the right to use them then great! the OP can prove he owns the images as he has them.


Faldrax said:
Yes, you would probably win any case (since you have the high res originals I assume), but a letter now might save time and effort later.
Click to expand...

Just not required but no harm in doing so.
 
To the OP - As is the norm with these things there are far too many opinions being expressed (all with the best intentions).

They are your images - Use them (unless the company can provide documented evidence to prove you cant)

Which we know they cannot.

If you want a definitive answer, speak to a lawer and even then you will get one opinion and his may differ from anothers :).
 
Last edited:
EOS_JD said:
Not the case. f they can PROVE they have the right to use them then great! the OP can prove he owns the images as he has them.
Click to expand...

Sorry, you misunderstood my point.

The OP has full rights to the photos, and can prove that. He does not need to do anything (other than keep the originals) to be able to do so in future.

However, IF it were to go to a dispute, then even when (in al probability) he wins the case there will still be the time and effort on his part to do this, even if all direct costs are eventually paid for by the other party as part of the settlement.
So in that sense, he still 'looses' to some extent - and the only 'winners' are the lawyers who pockets their fees either way.
 
cymruchris said:
Or you could remove all of your images :) And they they can pay someone to provide them all over again :)
Click to expand...

Absolutely not, not only would this be very unprofessional you could find yourself in a tricky legal situation, both criminal and civil.

Whether or not the OP got paid is irrelevant. What the financial agreement was at the time is also irrelevant. He supplied images for promotional purposes, the fact that there is no contract has no bearing because a court would likely find that there was an implied contract based on the actions of both parties.

A business is seen as a seperate legal entity and in this case that entity owns usage rights to these images. Who owns the business is of no consequence, the rights will pass to the new owner in the event of a sale as would it's other assets.
 
gingerweasel said:
Absolutely not, not only would this be very unprofessional you could find yourself in a tricky legal situation, both criminal and civil.

Whether or not the OP got paid is irrelevant. What the financial agreement was at the time is also irrelevant. He supplied images for promotional purposes, the fact that there is no contract has no bearing because a court would likely find that there was an implied contract based on the actions of both parties.

A business is seen as a seperate legal entity and in this case that entity owns usage rights to these images. Who owns the business is of no consequence, the rights will pass to the new owner in the event of a sale as would it's other assets.
Click to expand...

Yes, unless they were excluded by the terms of sale, or precluded by the terms of a license, neither of which appear to apply here. This doesn't affect the OP's copyright though, unless the new owners could prove that there was an exclusive agreement in force, which doesn't seem very likely either.
 
MartynK said:
Yes, unless they were excluded by the terms of sale, or precluded by the terms of a license, neither of which appear to apply here. This doesn't affect the OP's copyright though, unless the new owners could prove that there was an exclusive agreement in force, which doesn't seem very likely either.
Click to expand...

Totally agree :thumbs:

The photographer retains copyright and can use these images on other projects unless the terms of the contract say otherwise (which isn't the case in this situation).
 
Faldrax said:
Sorry, you misunderstood my point.

The OP has full rights to the photos, and can prove that. He does not need to do anything (other than keep the originals) to be able to do so in future.

However, IF it were to go to a dispute, then even when (in al probability) he wins the case there will still be the time and effort on his part to do this, even if all direct costs are eventually paid for by the other party as part of the settlement.
So in that sense, he still 'looses' to some extent - and the only 'winners' are the lawyers who pockets their fees either way.
Click to expand...

It would never go to court! The other side have nothing to go with!
 
With their apparent lax attitude to their own site as is I doubt they would even notice.
 
Ok, I've had personal experience of exactly this. It was settled out of court as solicitors on both sides didn't know what way it would go and agreed it would get too expensive for both parties.
Main points were:

New company had purchased all assets including intellectual property.

As no license granted to previous company, it was deemed there was a license for unlimited use on the website as they had been in use for just over three years, without any objection from the photographer, who knew they were being used and knew what they were being used for when he made the images.

Summary was:
New company free to carry on using on website but not any other media.

Photographer owns copyright and may reuse/sell images - but was advised against any use/sale that could be interpreted as malicious towards the new company.

No money changed hands apart from each side paying a LARGE amount to their own solicitors! :(

The only difference is your photos are of their product in their showroom. Not sure you could sell these on without the end user facing a court battle over 'passing off'!

If it were me I'd take new pics, if you don't have the products get images form the manufacturer's marketing dept.

Cheers
Si
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top