Cotswold and Panamoz

[jamesev]

Interesting way to look at it, however there should be NO difference. If you ask them or check the FAQ they will tell you there's no difference in the product compared buying new in the UK, they come off the same production line, it's just that they've been made for a different market. I understand it's still a better deal than used UK and for some that's enough, but for me if it's sold as new it should be new as I've already mentioned a couple of time.

Yeah, that's how they can offer such low prices. I've not received a single item that's been listed correctly on the shipping note, as Tommy says they usually put the value under £100.

Interesting about receiving the item. In my experience the item has come to me from a UK address. I assumed that they receive the item from their source, repackage / box and then dispatch with the UK courier. I suspect if the item was sent direct from the source to the UK customer and it was picked up at customs the UK end customer would be lumped with a payment to be made prior to the item being handed over. Doing it the former way the dispatch > customer receipt is all within the UK

Cotswold say -
Will I be charged import charges, VAT or any other fees?
No, If you are a UK customer then your order will usually be sent from our UK offices in Cheltenham or Coventry.Our prices are the final cost to you. Even if items are sent directly from our HK warehouse you will not be billed for any additional charges. Existing customers may remember that previously they might have received an invoice from the courier. This will no longer ever happen as we have changed how we do things to ensure a smoother and easier transaction for our customers.So, just to confirm, you will never pay more than the price that you see on our website!

 

[Mitzyboy]

If something is advertised as new it should be new.

When you buy grey import you are paying the "new" price it is only cheaper because you are not paying tax and import duty.

I dont agree. With reputable third party importers the VAT and (if applicable) duty are paid at importation. Theres no escaping that. Its all manifested from shipper to importer, a company would have to somehow load a container, ship it to the UK and then get it out of customs without anyone noticing to achieve not paying and I think we can agree thats impossible. The reason the items are so much cheaper is solely because one isn't paying the UK camera company / high street retailers huge markups. £800 saving on a Canon 5Div, being £800 profit that the UK companies arent getting

 

[thedistrictline]

Did Fuji clamp down? Panamoz no longer selling them for a while

 

[f/1.2]

I dont agree. With reputable third party importers the VAT and (if applicable) duty are paid at importation. Theres no escaping that. Its all manifested from shipper to importer, a company would have to somehow load a container, ship it to the UK and then get it out of customs without anyone noticing to achieve not paying and I think we can agree thats impossible. The reason the items are so much cheaper is solely because one isn't paying the UK camera company / high street retailers huge markups. £800 saving on a Canon 5Div, being £800 profit that the UK companies arent getting

There is nobody using a container they are all sent as individual packages maybe excluding HDEW they operate differently and nobidy seems sure how they do things.

 

[the black fox]

the question is has ANYONE on here ever been approached by customs and excise to pay import duty after delivery .. I cannot see any valid reason for objecting to somewhere that saves you hundreds of pounds on purchases unless
you work for the tax man
you work in a business/shop that's effected by grey imports
or you just want the snob value of boasting my camera costs more than yours .

will we eventually lose our local camera shops ,probably inevitable unless they can get out of the importer supply /demand chain or they can find a way to price match these grey imports and still stay in business

 

[gramps]

VAT invoices are issued by their parent company, Validhurst who have been operating in the UK for over 30 years or so, vat no 671 9479 88 .... so I guess you can say HDEW is the trading name of Validhurst

Thank you, so HDEW are not VAT registered - from your HMRC experience what does it mean that HDEW is listed as a 'Dormant' company?

 

[Mitzyboy]

Thank you, so HDEW are not VAT registered - from your HMRC experience what does it mean that HDEW is listed as a 'Dormant' company?

HDEW are I guess what you would call a sister company of the main owning company with the same management / directors. I suppose its like many management companies these days that have different trading faces. Are they dormant? I guess, with the owning company managing it

 

[Mitzyboy]

There is nobody using a container they are all sent as individual packages maybe excluding HDEW they operate differently and nobidy seems sure how they do things.

HDEW from my experience have stock in the UK, I dont know about the others as Ive never bought from them but Ive frequently seen instances of deliveries being effected in a matter of a few days.
I should be more specific shouldnt I as regards "container". The lead time on that mode of transport would be far too long. So insert "shipment" instead, and I am aware how logistics works having worked in the industry specialising in far east imports. Making one off shipments is really not cost effective, so I would imagine there are some kind of stock levels in some of these companies of their most popular lines. Do any of the other main ones ship directly from the FE to the customer?

 

[gramps]

HDEW are I guess what you would call a sister company of the main owning company with the same management / directors. I suppose its like many management companies these days that have different trading faces. Are they dormant? I guess, with the owning company managing it

“I guess”, “I suppose” … anything more concrete?
Reason for asking is they sell vast quantities of electrical gear but aren’t VAT registered and are trading but ‘dormant’.
Seems odd!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I cannot see any valid reason for objecting to somewhere that saves you hundreds of pounds on purchases unless
you work for the tax man
you work in a business/shop that's effected by grey imports
or you just want the snob value of boasting my camera costs more than yours .

To which could be added...

• You want to live in a country that rewards cheats and chancers with substantial fines or prison sentences.
• You want to live in a country where businesses compete on a level and legal playing field.
• You want to deal with a company you can trust and which is not run by want-to-be or already convicted criminals.
• You want to deal with a company that will fix problems, as defined by the laws of fair trading.

Just a few extra reasons for giving the cheats a wide berth.

 

[Mitzyboy]

“I guess”, “I suppose” … anything more concrete?
Reason for asking is they sell vast quantities of electrical gear but aren’t VAT registered and are trading but ‘dormant’.
Seems odd!

Ive been using them for 15 years, Ive absolutely never had a problem
HDEW as a name has traded for 30 years and became HDEW Cameras Ltd in 2010
On Trustpilot their rating is 4.9
Their management company which is made up of the same directors is VAT registered and handles VAT matters for HDEW which means their accounts are probably handled by the main company
They have a physical presence wher you can go and collect your order if you want to
On other photographic groups, the experiences are always positive

I dont see anything odd about it. Im sorry if youre unhappy about of my use of grammar. I'm not a management consultant, I'm only going on my experience of running companies when I was in business and I know management companies running sister companies is not unusual

Hope that helps

 

[Brentor]

“I guess”, “I suppose” … anything more concrete?
Reason for asking is they sell vast quantities of electrical gear but aren’t VAT registered and are trading but ‘dormant’.
Seems odd!

From what I can tell the trading co is VALIDHIRST LIMITED who trade as HDEW Cameras (not HDEW Cameras Limited). According the their terms of service HDEW Cameras act as a disclosed agent for Plemix, Hong Kong. HDEW Cameras Limited is listed at Comoanies House as a dormant co.

As someone stated above, we will probably never know how these grey cos operate.

 

[MarkCé]

the question is has ANYONE on here ever been approached by customs and excise to pay import duty after delivery .. I cannot see any valid reason for objecting to somewhere that saves you hundreds of pounds on purchases unless
you work for the tax man
you work in a business/shop that's effected by grey imports
or you just want the snob value of boasting my camera costs more than yours .

will we eventually lose our local camera shops ,probably inevitable unless they can get out of the importer supply /demand chain or they can find a way to price match these grey imports and still stay in business

First, I just got my cotswoldpackage, but did not open it fully yet. Anyhow, no taxes paid, as shipment was between Germany and Belgium.
I regularly buy stuff via Ali, and so far, I only had to pay something once, but then I bougth myself in China, and package was coming from China directly.

Regarding your last question:
No, I think the regular shops will stay, but they will have to prove themselves, and the brands will have to control their sales a bit better.
Grey import is a topic from decades, it fills some needs, but not all.

 

[f/1.2]

HDEW from my experience have stock in the UK, I dont know about the others as Ive never bought from them but Ive frequently seen instances of deliveries being effected in a matter of a few days.
I should be more specific shouldnt I as regards "container". The lead time on that mode of transport would be far too long. So insert "shipment" instead, and I am aware how logistics works having worked in the industry specialising in far east imports. Making one off shipments is really not cost effective, so I would imagine there are some kind of stock levels in some of these companies of their most popular lines. Do any of the other main ones ship directly from the FE to the customer?

Yes Panamoz do both ship direct and ship from the China to the U.K to be repackaged and shipped on. E-Infin do both as do Cotswolds. With Panamoz they often ship direct, they usually only ship via the other way if there has been previous delivery issues. Cotswolds do it based on the item, can only assume it depends where they source from them.

None of them as far as I know carry physical stock other than HDEW which carry a very small amount of stock of some items. They usually ship from China to them, then repackage and send on.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Just by way of clearing away some of the undergrowth.

Grey imports have been shown to be illegal in the UK since 2017 when the Supreme Court ruled on the case of "R v M C T" in 2017, according to this page...

Major Changes to the Law Surrounding the 'Grey Market' - JMW Solicitors

'Grey goods' are those that bear an authentic trademark with the trademark proprietor's consent but are sold without consent. Read more on the JMW blog.

www.jmw.co.uk

 

[MarkCé]

Just by way of clearing away some of the undergrowth.

Grey imports have been shown to be illegal in the UK since 2017 when the Supreme Court ruled on the case of "R v M C T" in 2017, according to this page...

Major Changes to the Law Surrounding the 'Grey Market' - JMW Solicitors

'Grey goods' are those that bear an authentic trademark with the trademark proprietor's consent but are sold without consent. Read more on the JMW blog.

www.jmw.co.uk

Not sure if this also applies to camera equipment.
Anyhow, why are brands like Sony, Canon and Nikon not suing companies like Panamoz and Cotswoldcameras?
It's not that they existed since yesterday...

 

[jamesev]

the question is has ANYONE on here ever been approached by customs and excise to pay import duty after delivery .. I cannot see any valid reason for objecting to somewhere that saves you hundreds of pounds on purchases unless
you work for the tax man
you work in a business/shop that's effected by grey imports
or you just want the snob value of boasting my camera costs more than yours .

will we eventually lose our local camera shops ,probably inevitable unless they can get out of the importer supply /demand chain or they can find a way to price match these grey imports and still stay in business

Not for camera items, but I have previously had the delivery company DHL drop a "held item" note through the door whereby they have paid the duties upon receipt of the item at the point of entry into the country, then they will not hand over the item to the end customer until they have been recompensated.

Not sure if this also applies to camera equipment.
Anyhow, why are brands like Sony, Canon and Nikon not suing companies like Panamoz and Cotswoldcameras?
It's not that they existed since yesterday...

Given Cotswold openly admit they trade grey market goods i don't think theres any question of it not applying

 

[Beetnik]

Not sure if this also applies to camera equipment.
Anyhow, why are brands like Sony, Canon and Nikon not suing companies like Panamoz and Cotswoldcameras?
It's not that they existed since yesterday...

If Panamoz & CC & all were the importers and imported at volume then they would. But YOU are the importer and the costs involved in suing hundreds of individuals would be disproportionate so they don't.

 

[MarkCé]

If Panamoz & CC & all were the importers and imported at volume then they would. But YOU are the importer and the costs involved in suing hundreds of individuals would be disproportionate so they don't.

No, I am not an importer. I get my goods from Germany into Belgium and this is within EU where there is no restriction. The one that imports it into EU is to be held responsible.

 

[mike_6480]

No, I am not an importer. I get my goods from Germany into Belgium and this is within EU where there is no restriction. The one that imports it into EU is to be held responsible.

That's technically not always true, and depends on the T&Cs that you have signed up with by entering into the purchase. With many grey importers you are the importer, and legally responsible for customs etc

 

[f/1.2]

Not sure if this also applies to camera equipment.
Anyhow, why are brands like Sony, Canon and Nikon not suing companies like Panamoz and Cotswoldcameras?
It's not that they existed since yesterday...

It is not enough volume to concern them versus the legal costs.

There is a reason though that Panamoz no longer sell Sigma lenses and there is also a reason e-infin no longer sell Sigma lenses on the U.K version of their website, while still available on the eu and U.S.A versions.

 

[snerkler]

Interesting about receiving the item. In my experience the item has come to me from a UK address. I assumed that they receive the item from their source, repackage / box and then dispatch with the UK courier. I suspect if the item was sent direct from the source to the UK customer and it was picked up at customs the UK end customer would be lumped with a payment to be made prior to the item being handed over. Doing it the former way the dispatch > customer receipt is all within the UK

Cotswold say -
Will I be charged import charges, VAT or any other fees?
No, If you are a UK customer then your order will usually be sent from our UK offices in Cheltenham or Coventry.Our prices are the final cost to you. Even if items are sent directly from our HK warehouse you will not be billed for any additional charges. Existing customers may remember that previously they might have received an invoice from the courier. This will no longer ever happen as we have changed how we do things to ensure a smoother and easier transaction for our customers.So, just to confirm, you will never pay more than the price that you see on our website!

They all say that you won't be charged, however on some of the sites they used to say that if you were charged then they will reimburse you, however they've now changed things and alegedly you won't be charged anymore. I don't believe this necessarily means they are paying all relevant import duties. I've had items delivered from both the UK and direct from the far east. The used item I received from Cotswolds came from a UK address. Interestingly this is a screenshot from Cotswolds site

I dont agree. With reputable third party importers the VAT and (if applicable) duty are paid at importation. Theres no escaping that. Its all manifested from shipper to importer, a company would have to somehow load a container, ship it to the UK and then get it out of customs without anyone noticing to achieve not paying and I think we can agree thats impossible. The reason the items are so much cheaper is solely because one isn't paying the UK camera company / high street retailers huge markups. £800 saving on a Canon 5Div, being £800 profit that the UK companies arent getting

I don't agree. IF they were paying the correct duties why are items marked as significantly lower value?

Did Fuji clamp down? Panamoz no longer selling them for a while

Panamoz still sell Fuji if you contact them, however they're no cheaper than UK and sometimes more expensive than UK which is probably why they don't list them. They advise me it's down to sourcing costs, but what this actually means I don't know. E-infinity only have limited Fuji available and a lot of it is only fractionally cheaper than UK.

the question is has ANYONE on here ever been approached by customs and excise to pay import duty after delivery .. I cannot see any valid reason for objecting to somewhere that saves you hundreds of pounds on purchases unless
you work for the tax man
you work in a business/shop that's effected by grey imports
or you just want the snob value of boasting my camera costs more than yours .

will we eventually lose our local camera shops ,probably inevitable unless they can get out of the importer supply /demand chain or they can find a way to price match these grey imports and still stay in business

I'd be very surprised if customs ever came after an individual, and I've never heard of it.

 

[jamesev]

I don't agree. IF they were paying the correct duties why are items marked as significantly lower value?

According to a Guardian article - Grey goods (genuine products sold outside official manufacturer channels) can be significantly cheaper because they bypass authorised markups and distribution controls. By utilising international price arbitrage, wholesale bulk-buying tactics, and saving on local overhead, unauthorised sellers can heavily undercut authorised retailers.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

This provides some useful information...

UK VAT And Customs Duties: A Guide For Cross-Border E-Commerce Sellers

Find out how UK VAT and customs rules apply to e-commerce sellers shipping goods from abroad to UK customers and what changes may follow after 2025.

www.forbes.com

The thing is that the consumer may well be the importer and it is worth reading the section "Selling to UK Consumers: What Happens at Checkout and Customs" to understand your situation when you buy from abroad.

 

[jamesev]

This provides some useful information...

UK VAT And Customs Duties: A Guide For Cross-Border E-Commerce Sellers

Find out how UK VAT and customs rules apply to e-commerce sellers shipping goods from abroad to UK customers and what changes may follow after 2025.

www.forbes.com

The thing is that the consumer may well be the importer and it is worth reading the section "Selling to UK Consumers: What Happens at Checkout and Customs" to understand your situation when you buy from abroad.

It seems like some technicalities come into play with this.

example: Cotswold State:

Payments are taken by Cotswold UK Cameras Limited company number 14313543.

Registered company Address
4th Floor
Centenary House
1 Centenary Way
Manchester
M50 1RF

So if you're dealing with them the "technically" you, as the customer, are not buying from abroad you're buying from a Limited Company with a company number registered at Companies House. Whether you knowing know where the company source their stock, is it of any real concern to you as long as it genuine Sony/Canon/Nikon etc.

 

[russellsnr]

Can't understand all the if's and but's here, You want a camera or lens that costs for example £3,500 and you buy it at £3000 but have to wait a week and get a free 3 year warranty why would you buy at the £3,500? I have purchased from both Cotswold and Panamoz without any problems in fact I had a problem some years back with a Sony camera and was told to send it to Sony UK (if I remember correctly it is in Wales) I paid for the repair upfront and was reimbursed by Panamoz within an hour of sending them a copy of the receipt. Russ.

 

[Beetnik]

So if you're dealing with them the "technically" you, as the customer, are not buying from abroad you're buying from a Limited Company with a company number registered at Companies House. Whether you knowing know where the company source their stock, is it of any real concern to you as long as it genuine Sony/Canon/Nikon etc.

No, you're buying from the Hong Kong company, Cotswold are merely agents.

 

[f/1.2]

Can't understand all the if's and but's here, You want a camera or lens that costs for example £3,500 and you buy it at £3000 but have to wait a week and get a free 3 year warranty why would you buy at the £3,500? I have purchased from both Cotswold and Panamoz without any problems in fact I had a problem some years back with a Sony camera and was told to send it to Sony UK (if I remember correctly it is in Wales) I paid for the repair upfront and was reimbursed by Panamoz within an hour of sending them a copy of the receipt. Russ.

Panamoz are very good that way, have similar experience myself, didn't even need to pay upfront for repairs they sent a payment after sending them the repair quote.

I don't know anyone that has dealt with warranty issues with Cotswolds so not sure how good or bad they are.

 

[jamesev]

No, you're buying from the Hong Kong company, Cotswold are merely agents.

Not if you’re paying a U.K. registered company

 

[Beetnik]

Not if you’re paying a U.K. registered company

Doesn't make any difference if it's a company, individual, partnership or whatever or whether it's based in the UK or any other country; an agent is just that and no more. You're buying from the HK Co.

 

[Brentor]

No, you're buying from the Hong Kong company, Cotswold are merely agents.

Not if you’re paying a U.K. registered company

I’m with Beetnik on this point. It is clear also clear from their T&Cs.