MARK AMIES
funnier than Les Dennis
- Messages
- 1,667
- Edit My Images
- No
Another interesting article with some bearing for photographers - http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/4080616/The-lucrative-new-trend-in-cyber-begging.html
Cyberbegging - photography
- Thread starter MARK AMIES
- Start date
- Messages
- 782
- Edit My Images
- No
This is called crowdsourcing. The BJP have run some articles on their website about it in the past.
No money isn't the same as free, if the two parties receive something that is of value to them then neither party is doing whatever they're doing for free. The dancer gets her photos and the photographer gets some practice and some portfolio work, either of them could "make it" by starting from this arrangement and neither of them owes the other anything if they do "make it".
No money isn't the same as free, if the two parties receive something that is of value to them then neither party is doing whatever they're doing for free. The dancer gets her photos and the photographer gets some practice and some portfolio work, either of them could "make it" by starting from this arrangement and neither of them owes the other anything if they do "make it".
What the good of the photographer getting some portfolio work together,if no one going to paid him,its a land of fairy tales,as the dancer said she needs a good portfolio to get work,in which case i think she will be hoping to get paid
,then next time she need to update her portfolio,will she paid ?,or just go begging again,i got free last time :shake:This woman asked people to donate their time/skills, and they responded. No-one was forced to do anything against their will. Perhaps they had their own motives, and perhaps she will remember them if she "makes it". It doesn't matter, it's a non story.
- Messages
- 10,765
- Name
- Jonathan
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It's in the Sun so, obviously, is beneath contempt.
But this whole crowd sourcing thing is getting silly. I literally get offers of "work" every day where when I say "what's your budget?" it goes quiet. Then there are all the people who believe it's best to crowdsource photography skills by listening to random advice on forums. And the number of people who think they can crowdsource their college homework by asking strangers to do it for them (amazingly this seems to work) or the people who think that crowdsourcing a piece of design from one of the online "competitions" is ethical.
I needed to convert a temperature the other day so I put into Google "convert 500 f to c" (I'm sure it used to work). It took me to a site where somebody had asked the question and the crowd had guesses at the answer. You could vote for the one you though "most accurate".
But this whole crowd sourcing thing is getting silly. I literally get offers of "work" every day where when I say "what's your budget?" it goes quiet. Then there are all the people who believe it's best to crowdsource photography skills by listening to random advice on forums. And the number of people who think they can crowdsource their college homework by asking strangers to do it for them (amazingly this seems to work) or the people who think that crowdsourcing a piece of design from one of the online "competitions" is ethical.
I needed to convert a temperature the other day so I put into Google "convert 500 f to c" (I'm sure it used to work). It took me to a site where somebody had asked the question and the crowd had guesses at the answer. You could vote for the one you though "most accurate".
- Messages
- 782
- Edit My Images
- No
Why should she pay the photographer?
If you posted this thread on a modelling forum they'd slag the photographer off for getting models for free instead of booking a paid model and would be asking if the photographer was going to remember the dancer who modelled for free if they become a successful photographer.
Value went both ways, life isn't all about money.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 11,513
- Name
- Stewart
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Amazing. You couldn't make it up.
- Messages
- 9,848
- Name
- Vlad
- Edit My Images
- Yes
But isn't every transaction about mutual benefit? From financial ones to pure barter systems - i give you a chicken in return for a turnip. All variations of this depend on one essential aspect, both parties *perceive* to have gained something from doing the deal.
If either party question the value of the exchange then the deal might not go down... and of course this happens all the time in photography - some people don't want to shoot for just a byline or portfolio material in the same way as some perceive a chicken to be worth more than 1 turnip.
"crowd sourcing" expands that agricultural market place to a vast audience... maybe there is a sucker out there prepared to give me a chicken for 1 turnip.... and a bit like Shakespeare being produced by an infinite number of monkeys, sometimes it does happen... some may call this "there's a sucker born every day"
however the perception of the person involved is that they have gained something.
Unless you imagine the world is full of philanthropic individuals.
If either party question the value of the exchange then the deal might not go down... and of course this happens all the time in photography - some people don't want to shoot for just a byline or portfolio material in the same way as some perceive a chicken to be worth more than 1 turnip.
"crowd sourcing" expands that agricultural market place to a vast audience... maybe there is a sucker out there prepared to give me a chicken for 1 turnip.... and a bit like Shakespeare being produced by an infinite number of monkeys, sometimes it does happen... some may call this "there's a sucker born every day"
however the perception of the person involved is that they have gained something.Unless you imagine the world is full of philanthropic individuals.
Last edited:
Why should she not paid the photographer,after all she getting her portfolio to get work,in which case I guess she would like to earn a living.
Or to you is Photographty such a low art,that photographer don't deserve getting paid for work they are do.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 4,096
- Name
- Carl
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Why should anyone on these forums not pay a professional model? Or do we hold them in such low esteem.....
Works both ways.
Yep it does,but then again I would paid an professional model,and expect to,after all they having a living to make as well
Last edited:
cowasaki
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 19,708
- Name
- Darren
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The dancer is giving something to the photographer - being there to be shot
The photographer is giving something to the dance - taking the pictures
BOTH BENEFIT
If they agreed on this beforehand then thats the end of it and they should both be happy full stop.
Slightly OT but it still works in Google, just typed in 500f in c and got back 260 degrees celsius
cowasaki
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 19,708
- Name
- Darren
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 9,818
- Edit My Images
- No
But in this instance she's appealing to photographers, make-up artists and stylists in a similar position to herself for some mutual portfolio building.
This has very little value to an established professional photographer, but to someone starting out, with a limited portfolio, limited funds to afford models, make-up artists and stylists there are considerable benefits:
- Portfolio building
- Establishing contact networks
- Messages
- 4,096
- Name
- Carl
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yep it does,but then again I would paid an professional model,and expect to,after all they having a living to make as well
How do you get a portfolio either as a model or photographer, when you are not in a position to pay for others services?
If I want to test a lens, I can get a model to do TFP. She gets shots for her portfolio, I get to test my lens. If she turns out to be the next Kate Moss, I can then make by selling the images of her at the start of her career.
I guess if you want to work for free,it's up to you.
But as an ex pro,time & time again I get asked if I will do photos for people for various things,I tell them if the photographer that are importent to them,to go find a full time pro,who will do a good job,and the money will be well spent.
Last edited:
OP
MARK AMIES
funnier than Les Dennis
- Messages
- 1,667
- Edit My Images
- No
I doubt it, you will need to pay her agent a fee.
- Messages
- 10,696
- Name
- Ken
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The barter system preceded money, it's about exchange of values, if all parties are happy then why worry. If the "pro's" object to this if they all exchanged a £10 note for each other's services, which makes it three or so commercial transactions, would they feel happier. Nothing in the basics has changed.
- Messages
- 9,848
- Name
- Vlad
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Indeed... as I said earlier...
Also (courtesy of wackypodia for lazyness)
Actually, the word "price" came into use in Western Europe only in the 13th century AD, the Latin root meaning being "pretium" meaning "reward, prize, value, worth," referring back to the notion of "recompense", or what was given in return, the expense, wager or cost incurred when a good changed hands. The verb meaning "to set the price of" was used only from the 14th century onwards.
- Messages
- 38
- Edit My Images
- No
there is plenty of TFP market out there, and it works both/all ways, for the model, MUA, and photographer. Realistically, a professional photographer isn't going to do TFP for a new model, and vice versa. Of cause a 'tog would hire model if they wanted a professional model, but that works the other way too.
Or maybe they would? Legal firms do 'pro bono' work(!?).
the rest of that article "I wanted to buy presents for my friends" is an absolute load *******s... and makes the first point look like a bunch of crap... it is The Sun afterall.....
Or maybe they would? Legal firms do 'pro bono' work(!?).
the rest of that article "I wanted to buy presents for my friends" is an absolute load *******s... and makes the first point look like a bunch of crap... it is The Sun afterall.....
- Messages
- 7,061
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- No
You got it, I never have read the likes of anything from the News International group and certainly after the Leveson inquiry never will frankly.
As soon as I saw the link was to do with the sun I just ignored it and moved on
- Messages
- 9,848
- Name
- Vlad
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Ok, how about this then.. I want to shoot a slayer gig because I like slayer and photography so I offer a mag my time to do it. They file the accreditation and I give them some shots, the rest go in my portfolio and the gig goes on my cv.
As do another ten gigs...
Am I doing an apprenticeship like "old days" or am I killing photography as a trade?
So many current Tp thread subjects merge to one thing...
PS I am available for slayer gigs this week ;-)
As do another ten gigs...
Am I doing an apprenticeship like "old days" or am I killing photography as a trade?
So many current Tp thread subjects merge to one thing...
PS I am available for slayer gigs this week ;-)
cowasaki
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 19,708
- Name
- Darren
- Edit My Images
- Yes
They're very loud though.
cowasaki
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 19,708
- Name
- Darren
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Who said work for free :bang:
The dancer/model/other person poses without making a charge on the basis that they get some images.
The photographer takes the pictures without making a charge on the basis that they get someone to pose for free.
They are doing it for each other!!
This is not something that an established professional photographer is going to do because they don't need more evidence/portfolio shots.
This is ALSO not something an established professional model/dancer is going to do because they CAN charge an amateur/non established photographer.
The point is that this is something for people to do who are starting out.
But as an ex pro,time & time again I get asked if I will do photos for people for various things,I tell them if the photographer that are importent to them,to go find a full time pro,who will do a good job,and the money will be well spent.
You see THAT is a different position completely... YOU are not looking for images for your portfolio IF you were then you might well do them for free. THAT IS THE POINT!!
- Messages
- 7,061
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- No
- Messages
- 5,864
- Edit My Images
- No
StewartR said:
It's called yahoo answers. So hardly a small site...
Though fyi, if you google (eg) '80f in celcius' google will automagically solve it for you
- Messages
- 9,818
- Edit My Images
- No
This argument always goes the same way, you're flogging a dead horse Darren. Some folk never manage to see the individual circumstances and "free" becomes a red rag to a bull.
- Messages
- 456
- Edit My Images
- No
I briefly scanned over it, but I missed the part where they linked it to Diana Princess of Wales.As soon as I saw the link was to do with The Sun I just ignored it and moved on
Photodiva
Foot elevated on the stool
- Messages
- 4,134
- Name
- Carol
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The concept of 'doing work for nothing' is a prerequiste these days for getting a 'proper' job - its called 'internship'. Blows me away that grads and the like are persuaded that this is the 'right' way to go and that companies actively encourage it.
- Messages
- 4,094
- Name
- Mark
- Edit My Images
- No
No one is talking about doing anything for free, other than some people on this thread who have chosen either not to read the original article or just decided to twist it into a different argument :bang:
- Messages
- 38
- Edit My Images
- No
and they're only talking about a third of the article at that. :bang:
there is nothing wrong with the 'photography' section of the article. The rest of it is a load of crap. but people have taken the rest of it "i wanted money to buy presents for my friends", and lumped it into the photography section too. As bad (read: exactly) as what The Sun has done.
Carry on though....:shrug:
No again if I was looking for model,for my portfolio to take to someone in the hope of gaining work,I would paid professional model,to me the investment would be worth it,to paid a good model
Marc
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 34,870
- Edit My Images
- Yes
No again if I was looking for model,for my portfolio to take to someone in the hope of gaining work,I would paid professional model,to me the investment would be worth it,to paid a good model
So, you're saying that a photographer should pay a model?
You're also saying that a model should pay a photographer?
Can you see where I'm going with this?
This argument always goes the same way, you're flogging a dead horse Darren. Some folk never manage to see the individual circumstances and "free" becomes a red rag to a bull.
Because people do things different from you,don't alway make them wrong
No not always,if both of you just want a few shots,but if you are aiming to get work from your portfolio,to me,for the photographer,or the model it's alway best to make an investment in your future,and if that mean having to pay,I will do,if you all think their somthing wrong with that :shrug:
That's my way