D600 or D7100?

True. However, you've said £700 lens is now equivalent to £7000 thanks to these crops and you don't loose quality. None of these is true. The £9000 combination is way better in every aspect but cost and weight. You might happy with the output of 300mm cropped at angle equivalent to 600mm, but it doesn't mean it is equivalent. It is significantly inferior.

Taking about £1700. Nikon V1 + 70-300VR cost about £755 and gives you even more reach...

I just wanted to show that there is nothing magic about crop factor. Crop AWAYS means taking pixels out not details in. The only thing that gives you the new cool 1.3x crop mode on D7100 is smaller files and a bit of buffer space.

flashp said:
What I'm trying to say is that for those who don't have £9k for a body and 1 lens (this is me) is that the results should be very good and less affected than those obtained with teleconverters.!
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No. Teleconverters are still better than crop. Otherwise there would be no point in making them if we can just crop/upsample the picture. If you don't believe me try it. Take a picture with lens+converter and then try to compare with the same lens, same sensor without converter, just croped to the same angle of view. While there might be a resolution loss from the TC it is not as great as the resolution loss caused by the reduction in pixel count from cropping. Again, there are laws of physics that plays the role there.

BTW: Congrats to your D7100!
 
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mpe said:
True. However, you've said £700 lens is now equivalent to £7000 thanks to these crops and you don't loose quality. None of these is true. The £9000 combination is way better in every aspect but cost and weight. You might happy with the output of 300mm cropped at angle equivalent to 600mm, but it doesn't mean it is equivalent. It is significantly inferior.

Taking about £1700. Nikon V1 + 70-300VR cost about £755 and give you even more reach...

I just wanted to show that there is nothing magic about crop factor. Crop AWAYS means taking pixels out not details in. The only thing that gives you the new cool 1.3x crop mode on D7100 is smaller files and a bit of buffer space.

Congrats to your D7100!
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I've said it can produce an image of similar proportions with 16MP applied to that image. I also said the 300mm f4 won't perform any the worse for being used this way. I haven't said a £700 lens is equal to a £7000 lens.

I agree with your other points regarding crop factors, but critically it won't take detail out either. An image at either 6000x4000 or 4800x3200 is fine with me as it will be for many others.

If I used an equivalent lens on a V1 (30-110mm) that has a 13.2x8.8mm (116.16 sq mm sensor area) 10MP sensor how would it produce a better quality image than that produced on a camera with a sensor that is 23.7x15.7 (372.09 sq mm sensor area) and has 16MP available? There's a 220% difference in sensor size, not to mention the extra 6MP.

Similarly, congrats to anyone with pockets deep enough for a D800 and 600mm f4!
 
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wuyanxu said:
In camera crop modes are a lie.

The 1.3x crop is useless. Might as well shoot at full sensor size and then crop the image in post processing. Same result.

Same with apparent extra reach with this DX vs FX debate. No, you don't get any extra reach. You get higher pixel density over a smaller area. Go full frame then crop off half the image gives the same result as buying a crop sensor DSLR. Shoot using 24MP D600 then crop to 12MP will get you same result as D300s.

Problem with higher pixel density of DX 24MP sensor is that it spots any imperfections in the lens. DX 24MP requires a better lens than D800!!

So buy full frame, it will improve every other aspect of your photography. Then crop in post processing, giving you more creative freedom.
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I haven't read a review of this camera that cites this as an issue, maybe you could let me know where this is written?

I haven't claimed you get extra reach. I've said you have an equivalent field of view to that focal length but with 16MP applied to that area with a sensor that is no more densely populated than it is when used at 24MP. This, for example, is the same as fitting the same lens to a D7000 which is 16MP.

I personally think that it's unlikely that the D7100 will perform worse than the D7000.

And do I have a FF body which I like very much. :D
 
flashp said:
I haven't read a review of this camera that cites this as an issue, maybe you could let me know where this is written?

I haven't claimed you get extra reach. I've said you have an equivalent field of view to that focal length but with 16MP applied to that area with a sensor that is no more densely populated than it is when used at 24MP. This, for example, is the same as fitting the same lens to a D7000 which is 16MP.

I personally think that it's unlikely that the D7100 will perform worse than the D7000.

And do I have a FF body which I like very much. :D
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It's not an issue per say. It's basic physics.

DX size sensor at 16MP will produce clearer image than 16MP squished into 2x crop factor. The higher pixel density requires more out of a lens. Thus it is not the same as having a bigger lens mounted on the camera.

What I'm saying is that the in-camera crop mode is useless. Crop in post processing produces EXACTLY SAME result, at the same time gives more creative freedom.
 
wuyanxu said:
It's not an issue per say. It's basic physics.

DX size sensor at 16MP will produce clearer image than 16MP squished into 2x crop factor. The higher pixel density requires more out of a lens. Thus it is not the same as having a bigger lens mounted on the camera.

What I'm saying is that the in-camera crop mode is useless. Crop in post processing produces EXACTLY SAME result, at the same time gives more creative freedom.
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This is basic physics...it's 24MP sensor. You use less of it for the extra crop, the pixel density doesn't change. The area used contains 16MP. It's a DX sized sensor used at 16MP rather than 24MP.

I haven't said it's the same as having a bigger lens fitted to FF body. I've said it's over £7000 cheaper for perfectly acceptable results.

Regarding PP cropping...you would need the extra resolution to be able to crop down to the same image/subject size in the frame. If you have £2k for a body and whatever you need for the lens then fine, good solution. If you don't then this will work well.

I have tried this with an 85mm f1.8 lens. One image is 6000x4000 the other is 4800x3200. No loss in quality between the two. This is not useless.

The body produces good clean images and the lens max aperture remains unchanged. I haven't suggested for a moment that it's better than FF body.
 
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No. Teleconverters are still better than crop.

How so?

I'd propose that they are an alternative to the same ends. You'd have to recognize that placing extra elements that are not part of the original lens design in the light path will have a detrimental effect on IQ, albeit to an acceptable level. This is proven in tests.

They have also been around for many decades before the advent of digital. Had they not been I wonder if they would have been produced today?
 
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flashp said:
This is basic physics...it's 24MP sensor. You use less of it for the extra crop, the pixel density doesn't change. The area used contains 16MP. It's a DX sized sensor used at 16MP rather than 24MP.

I have tried this with an 85mm f1.8 lens. One image is 6000x4000 the other is 4800x3200. No loss in quality between the two. This is not useless.
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What I am saying is that FX D600 at 24MP with its DX crop mode of 12MP has exact same pixel density as D300s. In another words, not as high resolving power required on the lens.

You originally compared the 16MP crop mode of D7100 against D7000. My point is that with the increased pixel density, you will actually loose clarity due to lens imperfections showing up, such as chromatic abbreviations.

End of the day, we differ on opinion. I think crop modes are useless when the same can be achieved in post processing. (eg. crop the 6000x4000 image down to 4800x3200).


However, having said that, I have to admit i've never considered faster FPS as I'm a landscape shooter. Would also be useful for video.
 
Thanks for all the comments, I'm still unsure what to do. The main benefits of the d7100 would be a better 51 point auto focus and large coverage and the 24mp sensor also being good for the extra cropping but it just doesn't feel to be much of an upgrade, and maybe a d7000 would be an option. The d600 could be worth the upgrade just for the full fame sensor and better ISO. The only niggling feeling is the smaller focus point area and it not covering as much of the frame. So far auto focus speed /reliability seems to be better than the d7000 so would be good. It would also be great for landscape and macro though, although a lens change for be needed. I think I'm going to be doing a little more thinking, but I'm again leaning towards the d600 and keeping the d7000 to get the best of both worlds.
 
Stuck in the same position. Very hard choice. Although £150 cashback now on the D600 makes it much closer to the D7100 price point. Just worried about this dirty sensor issue!
 
Harrybeeee said:
Stuck in the same position. Very hard choice. Although £150 cashback now on the D600 makes it much closer to the D7100 price point. Just worried about this dirty sensor issue!
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My d600 doesn't have an issue with the sensor getting dirty, or at least no more than any other slr , even if it did I'd just clean it :shrug:
 
I have the D600 and so far no problem with dirty sensor that I have noticed and the focus area although small is no problem in the real world.

I often use the edge focus points and I found no problems..... it is an excellent camera though. Excellent quality and brilliant to be able to crop into a photo
 
Had dust on mine but nothing a blower, brush or swab can't deal with, mainly a quick blow and brush. To be honest though if you keep checking a sensor at f22 you are going to find the odd speck. The camera itself produces fantastic images and the smaller focusing area causes no problems( I use single point afs most of the time anyway. The ISO and Dynamic range are fantastic.
 
The cashback has bought the D600 in to my budget. Was off out to get a D7100 tomorrow, but now not so sure! Only trouble is, it would probably just be the kit lens and a 50mm f1.8g.
 
The D600 is a good camera. Its performance in difficult light is superb, it is fast, easy to handle, the user interface (menus and buttons) for me is intuitively usable (and I'm coming from a Canon), and the camera is not too bulky or heavy, yet solidly built. The 50mm f1.8 D or G both get excellent reviews, I have the D and it is good. I also have a 24-85mm 2.8-4 D (careful, this is not the kit lens) and the performance is in my humble opinion excellent. It is not too bulky, but solid, and it is sharp enough for all my purposes. It has good reviews (careful again, some reviewers mistake it for the kit lens or vice versa, but those who tested the right lens all say its performance is great). And it is not expensive - I've seen price differences of 50% (using the lowest price I've seen as a calculation basis) and at first I could not believe this is the same lens. I asked a friend who knows Nikon inside out, and he told me it's the same lens, just different people asking different prices. For an affordable standard zoom for the D600, this lens would be my recommendation.

As for the 'limited' AF area, the discussion surprises me. I wonder how often a larger AF area than the D600 offers is actually used, and for what, except when you want to take pictures of a flock of birds which covers the entire image area. If you plan to buy a D600, ask yourself if you really need an AF which covers the full screen, or whether something that covers a large portion around the center area of the image isn't good enough. For me it definitely is good enough, and I have taken pictures of flocks of birds.
 
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Well today is the day for my trip to park cameras... im coming back with a D7100 or D600... who knows! Budget is 2kish.... so it will not be a super fast f2.8 set up, but that will come in time.
 
JJ! said:
Well today is the day for my trip to park cameras... im coming back with a D7100 or D600... who knows! Budget is 2kish.... so it will not be a super fast f2.8 set up, but that will come in time.
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Park Cameras will give you half price vertical grip with a camera (Part of a Nikon deal that they get as dealers). Just thought I mention it ;)
 
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