D800E first outing - Not happy!

Digifrog

Digifrog

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Scott
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Hi folks

Today saw me for the first time out to take some test shots with the D800E & I am disappointed by something quite horrible. The shot is not great, it's a test - to see how the camera performed and to see how my PC would perform in editing.

So the shot is this

7154328997_8df48ebc9f_o.jpg


I was horrified when I zoomed in to 200% to correct any CA and saw this (crop at 200% from a portion of the sky).

7154333291_83d1f64577_o.jpg


What the heck is going on here??? :shrug: It's all over the place, especially in the sky. When I shoot with my old D80 I could zoom in to 900% and it would be fine, clean as a whistle. I zoom in here and I'm confronted with this gash.

Now, the only thing changed in workflow is converting the NEF to DNG in DNG Converter so I could edit in ACR. Can this be the culprit? I've checked the original RAW and it's OK. I've never seen anything like it and I would prefer to never see it again. Not a happy bunny, seriously, I can't be dealing with this.

Any light will be greatly appreciated.
 
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Have you got Capture NX2 - if so does the same effect appear on the NEF?
 
Ozei said:
Have you got Capture NX2 - if so does the same effect appear on the NEF?
Click to expand...

Hi Ozei

I have CaptureNX2 yes, I don't like it, I can't along with it. This is why I opted to download Adobe DNG Converter so I could enter the ACR stage in CS3.

The original RAW seems clean enough.
 
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If the same effect doesn't appear with the NEF in CNX2 it's highly unlikey to be anything wrong with the camera. Something odd must be happening with DNG Converter. Assume it's this one? http://www.dngconverter.com/
 
Ozei said:
If the same effect doesn't appear with the NEF in CNX2 it's highly unlikey to be anything wrong with the camera. Something odd must be happening with DNG Converter. Assume it's this one? http://www.dngconverter.com/
Click to expand...

It's not that one.

It's v7.1 from Adobe.
http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5389

I certainly wouldn't expect artefacts like this from conversion, but maybe I'm wrong? It's not even as if I had pushed sliders in ACR to any great extent here.

My CS3 has file preferences set so I can open jpegs in ACR and I've not seen anything like this; even when exporting the jpeg out of ACR into Ps..

:thumbsdown:
 
Hmm, in that case I'm lost. It's a weird effect to be sure but I'm pretty sure it's not the camera.

Try asking for help (with pic) on Nikonians - there are some very knowledgeable folk over there.
 
Update: When converting the D800 NEF to DNG select "Change Preferences" and check the box next to "Embed Original RAW File"

I did this and it's not as bad as the crop above but it's still evident. Is DNG Converter notorious for these artefacts?

Editing the D800E RAW has taught me that my PC needs upgrading, it looks like I need CS6 also to carry on as I did before with my D80.

Ozei said:
Hmm, in that case I'm lost. It's a weird effect to be sure but I'm pretty sure it's not the camera.

Try asking for help (with pic) on Nikonians - there are some very knowledgeable folk over there.
Click to expand...

I've not tried them.

Thanks Ozei.
 
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I've only used DNG Converter a couple of times so I'm afraid I don't know the ins & outs of using it with NEF files - someone at Nikonians probably will though.

The Adobe support people might be able to tell you what's going on too (ditto Nikon support).
 
daugirdas said:
Download LR 4 30d trial and give that a go. (Chances are you will not want to use anything else).
Click to expand...

Hey Tomas

Yes, I've been staying up late geeking out at Youtube demos for LR4. I found a great demo from this German guy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPU2krxCQQ&feature=related

To quote a question I posted there...

"I noticed the filenames in this video at the bottom are .dng. Is this different to editing RAW files in CS3/4/5?? The filenames at the bottom of ACR in my CS3 is .NEF (Nikon) not .dng.

Am I right to think that you are still working directly from the RAW image in LR4 and not a RAW converted to.dng file??

The reason I ask is because Adobe DNG Converter gave me unwanted artefacts when converting RAW to .dng. This I want to avoid."

If you view the video at full screen youu will notice the filenames are .dng (not .NEF). Given what I've posted above you can understand my concerns with LR4. Do you have LR4? If you do, will you mind me popping over with a D800E RAW file?
 
Could you convert the original raw file to jpg in camera and then look at the jpg on your PC. That may give you a better idea whether its the camera of the RAW conversion.
 
Software can have bugs in it. Try on the Adobe forums. The developers/testers hang around there and will probably want you to post the image to them. If other s/w is OK, it's unlikely to be the camera.
 
You need to be able to see the NEF file properly, so as suggested, download the trial of lightroom so you can zoom in on the raw NEF file without faffing around with DNG and converters - that will confirm for sure if its the camera or the software that has the issue.

warning though, I am hearing LR4 is slow on anything but the most highly spec'd machines, so be prepared for that, but worth it to check the pictures properly
 
Whilst non D800 specific when I first got my 5D3 Capture One hadn't been updated to handle the raw files (it is now thank goodness) so I converted the first files to DNGs, I had a similar experience with the files coming out strange, soft in places, noise, the lot. When CO6 was updated I ran the same raw files through and all of a sudden all was well again.

You can get a free demo of Capture One and I know it supports D800, worth a try to make sure it is a software issue rather than hardware.
 
I would open the file in Capture NX2 or View NX and check to see if the effect is showing in there to confirm / rule out an issue with the camera.
 
Yv said:
warning though, I am hearing LR4 is slow on anything but the most highly spec'd machines, so be prepared for that, but worth it to check the pictures properly
Click to expand...
The consensus is that's only when it's importing the previus catalogue as it generates thumbnails for all the images in the background. Whilst I have a high spec machine, it isn't noticeably quicker/slower than 3 for me.
 
Shoot in RAW + JPG. Zoom the jpg fresh out of camera. If no artifacts then it is likely an adobe problem.

Also try GIMP as that has a RAW converter and can read NEF files so no need to mess with DNG.
 
arad85 said:
The consensus is that's only when it's importing the previus catalogue as it generates thumbnails for all the images in the background. Whilst I have a high spec machine, it isn't noticeably quicker/slower than 3 for me.
Click to expand...

This. I complained initially about Lr4's speed, but all seems fine now.
 
That has got to be a processing problem. When using PSE10 I can make skies turn out like your sample problem shot by pushing the "Darken highlights" slider up to the maximum.

Perhaps you have one of the controls set at a default level that is causing the problem.
 
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Have you tried a test print to see if it's present there?
 
arclight said:
That has got to be a processing problem. When using PSE10 I can make skies turn out like your sample problem shot by pushing the "Darken highlights" slider up to the maximum.

Perhaps you have one of the controls set at a default level that is causing the problem.
Click to expand...

I think it is. The original RAWs are fine and any RAWs edited in CaptureNX2 and saved as 16 bit TIFFs are fine, even after finishing off in Ps.

The problem therefore happens when the RAW file is converted to DNG with Adobe DNG Converter, even with "Original RAW Embedded" option checked.

A bit disappointed then with the DNG Converter, Adobes way of telling serious/fussy enthusiasts to "get LR4/CS6 if you aren't happy" I guess.

My decision now is, do I get LR4 for the RAW stage & finisho off on CS3 with the TIFF. Or do I just go and buy CS6.
 
Digifrog said:
.....My decision now is, do I get LR4 for the RAW stage & finisho off on CS3 with the TIFF. Or do I just go and buy CS6.
Click to expand...

I take it in this scenario you'd be doing global adjustments in LR and then pixel level editing in Photoshop?
 
Digifrog said:
My decision now is, do I get LR4 for the RAW stage & finisho off on CS3 with the TIFF. Or do I just go and buy CS6.
Click to expand...

I'd try a trial of a different raw converter and see how you get on with it. I used to use ACR and CS4 for everything, now I use Capture One Pro and only even do the last 5% of editing in CS4, the vast majority I do in CO.
 
The workflow you're using (converting to DNG and using an older ACR) should work just fine, this must be a bug with DNG Converter & D800e files OR there is a default profile being applied which is all wonky.
 
Thanks for the feedback folks.

I'm really not sure where to go from here. Historically my worklflow (with the D80) was open the D80 NEF in ACR then when I've finished tweaking open the image in CS3 as a 16 bit TIFF and edit using Ps tools. I can end up editing with a pallet of say a dozen layers with masks and adjustments. My main workflow at this stage was being able to open plug ins (Color Efex Pro & Silver Efex Pro).

Now with the D800E, all this has changed and I'm looking at what routeo take. I obviously cannot edit D800 NEFs in ACR as I used to with the D80 and my PC is gasping for air trying to cope with the workflow.

So I need to a) Upgrade my software to be able to carry on as before, and b) Upgrade my hardware to carry on as before. With me so far?

Now, all this is costing a rather a lot of money. Software. To go with the CS6 route it's going to be whatever that costs (£620?) but this means I can reinstall the plug ins I have and carry on (after hardware upgrade of course) and it should be OK.
OR
I could go with the Lightroom 4 route (£100) which is much cheaper but I'm not sure I'll be able to load the plug ins into LR (more on that later).

On the PC upgrade front, the cost is going to be the cost of Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), a new CPU and of course a little boost in RAM.
OR
I have my eye on the 21 iMac All In One which I could possibly do with a 20% deposit and 9 months interest free. I really like this but I'm so not familiar Mac OS.

If I decide this route then obviously my choice is either CS6 (Mac) or Lightroom 4 (MAc).
Just to complicate things!

Now, I don't know if you or anyone else has noticed this but Warehouse Express range of software from Nik Software.
http://www.wexphotographic.com/search/?q=nik software

As you can see they stock Color Efex Pro 4 (£170), Silver Efex Pro 2 (£160), HDR Efex Pro (£89), Viveza 2 (£88), Sharpener Pro (£159), Dfine 2.0 (£89) etc etc. and they are all at a price range I would come to expect.

So then I saw this...
Nik Complete Collection Lightroom Edition
http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-nik-complete-collection-lightroom-edition/p1530477
All in for £240?? What's ghoing on here? It seems like a good deal or am I missing something?? Are the plug ins included here not as powerful as the individual complete editions?

To confuse things even more it appears the Academic version is the same price??
http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-nik-complete-collection-lightroom-edition-academic/p1530613

Who can shed light on this?

I really don't know what to do. My heart is saying get the iMac and LR4 with the Nik Suite for LR4 if that price is true. My heart is also saying get the iMac anyway and get CS6 for it but then getting the individual Nik plug ins is a no no financially speaking.

My head is telling me load Windows 7 64 bit on my existing PC with a couple of exrea sticks of RAM and wait to swap out the CPU and carry on as best as I can for now.

Sorry for the long winded summary but I just don't know what to do. Buying the iMac is an expensive step for me (I can barely afford it) but it just seems to be the easiest thing to do in order for me to carry on s I did with the D80.

Thanks for listening/reading.

Scott
 
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vaizki said:
The workflow you're using (converting to DNG and using an older ACR) should work just fine, this must be a bug with DNG Converter & D800e files OR there is a default profile being applied which is all wonky.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought. Initially I hadn't checked any boxes in "Change Preferences" so the conversion gave me JPEG (I guess) by default and that gave me what you see in post #1.

So then I checked the Original Raw file - Embed Original RAW File and it was better but still there.

I've not used DNG before so I'm not sure if it's me or it. But the workflow is non aggressive and straightforward. I don't ever really go mad in ACR.
 
If you are not pigheaded and stuck in your ways I'd strongly suggest giving LR4 a chance :)

And even if your plugins don't work inside LR4, you can always just choose "Edit in Photoshop" from LR4 and what will happen is:
- LR4 will render a 16bit RGB TIFF from the original RAW + any non-destructive edits in LR4, similar to flattening layers in Photoshop.
- Photoshop will open up with the image and you can bash at it with your plugins
- When you are done, just close the file and save changes and it'll pop back into LR4 and the edited TIFF will be stacked with the original RAW image. So you will be left with both.
- Of course if you then do changes to the RAW file in LR4, you have to go back to PS and do your magic there to produce a new TIFF.

So it's quite streamlined but there ARE downsides mainly in terms of performance and resource use:
- When you jump from LR4 to Photoshop and render the TIFF, it will take time and with D800e files I'm guessing you want a modern CPU.
- You need MEMORY because you will be having LR4 + Photoshop with gigantic 16bit TIFFs open at the same time. I would not skimp on this and go to 16GB straight away or 12GB minimum.

I personally rarely have to go to Photoshop as Lightroom offers me everything I usually need for my shots. Then again I'm not a commercial photographer.
 
A clarification.. with LR4 you are actually never changing the original RAW file, it's always there behind the scenes and any adjustments are calculated on the fly as it's rendered for viewing. And if you want to make several different versions or crops of one image, they will all be based on the single RAW file so that will save disk space and avoid creating copies of files all over the place..
 
vaizki said:
If you are not pigheaded and stuck in your ways I'd strongly suggest giving LR4 a chance :)

And even if your plugins don't work inside LR4, you can always just choose "Edit in Photoshop" from LR4 and what will happen is:
- LR4 will render a 16bit RGB TIFF from the original RAW + any non-destructive edits in LR4, similar to flattening layers in Photoshop.
- Photoshop will open up with the image and you can bash at it with your plugins
- When you are done, just close the file and save changes and it'll pop back into LR4 and the edited TIFF will be stacked with the original RAW image. So you will be left with both.
- Of course if you then do changes to the RAW file in LR4, you have to go back to PS and do your magic there to produce a new TIFF.

So it's quite streamlined but there ARE downsides mainly in terms of performance and resource use:
- When you jump from LR4 to Photoshop and render the TIFF, it will take time and with D800e files I'm guessing you want a modern CPU.
- You need MEMORY because you will be having LR4 + Photoshop with gigantic 16bit TIFFs open at the same time. I would not skimp on this and go to 16GB straight away or 12GB minimum.

I personally rarely have to go to Photoshop as Lightroom offers me everything I usually need for my shots. Then again I'm not a commercial photographer.
Click to expand...

I'm not stuck in my ways as such, not in this instance anyway, I'm desperately seeking a way out. What is holding me back is what if the same happens to my D800E RAW files when I fire them into LR4 - indicating a problem with D800 NEFs and ACR 7.1?

For the hardware upgrade, I either go with the iMac (this only comes wih 4GB but is expandable - but will 4GB be better/enough in Mac OS than it would be in Windows? ) or swap out my MB & processor with 16GB of DDR3 RAM.
 
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If you are interested in the Mac...All I can say is the D800/E is natively supported, no need for conversions. I'd go for Apple Aperture instead of lightroom (is cheaper as well). If/When you buy a Mac, make certain you buy one-2-one with it. This is for £72 one year unlimited one-2-one training sessions at a Apple Store of your convenience. I've found them great and very useful. The guys there were fantastic in helping out with workflow and adapting how I wanted it, give incredible editing tips etc. They also do sessions on switching from a PC etc, organise projects with like minded individuals etc.

You may want to bring your memory card to an Apple Store and just try out your D800 files. I don't know how up-to-date they keep their machines but the Camera RAW update including the D800 was out for weeks/over-a-month now...So if not installed ask one of the staff and they will help you out...
 
Oh forgot to say, I run with the Nik Software Complete collection for Aperture plugin kit...Works fantastically...
 
Scott you can upgrade from CS3 to CS6 for much less, its normally just under £200 ...

Check out this link ..

Adobe details on special upgrade offers for CS3/CS4 owners (exp dec 31 2012)

I would go the upgrade route as your used to using CS, I also think its high time adobe stopped limiting ACR access for new camera's to the latest version by not allowing you to update to the latest version of ACR on CS products that are older, I had this with CS3 and had to upgrade to CS5 in order to retain ACR integration for my camera models.


As a foot note I don't have any problem processing large raw files or video on my windows machine that only has 4GB ram.
 
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And yes I'm on an iMac with 12GB here and Canon 7D files work fine. Memory upgrades on the iMac are dead simple (open one screw and press them in).

I used to be an Aperture user but LR has superior noise reduction, sharpen masking etc that I appreciate more than Aperture's secret sauces. If I wanted to go for the ultimate in image quality I'd use Capture One but I just can't get along with their GUI and library management.. brrrr..
 
Since the OP is interested in the Nik Software suite I would say that dfine and output sharpener provide more than any of the two products where it is required :)
 
iMac 27" All In One = £1649
or Upgrade PC to...

Motherboard
ASUS Maximus IV Extreme-Z Intel Z68 Express E-ATX - LGA1155 Socket

CPU
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 3.4Ghz Quad Core

RAM
4 x 4GB DDR3

OS
Windows 7 Pro

...all this is half the price of the (beautiful) iMac. This is my hardware choice.

An unanswered question. Can someone please tell me why WEX have the Nik Suite for Lightroom for £239 when individually buying non LR Nik Plugins is around £600?

Thanks Ian, I hadn't considered that. I'm unsure, not quite knowing what direction to take but it's noted.
 
A choice only you can make :)

I paid £232 for the complete collection for Apple Aperture...

I think the difference is that the individual items or the full full suite you can use the plugins within PS as well....For me Aperture with its powerful brushes and the Nik Software complete collection is plenty to deal with any photo editing requirement I ever can imagine...
 
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