Dipping toe into the world of mirrorless

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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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I’m a canon fan but disappointed with their earlier efforts with mirrorless.
I’m now finding that carrying around a DSLR is becoming a bit too heavy so I’m looking into a more compact mirrorless system with an EVF for walk around and travel.
I’m not prepared to buy into a brand new systems just yet but I think I have narrowed it down to two used systems.
I’ve read some good reviews on the Olympus E-M10 MK II and Fujitsu X-T10.
I know some of you old timers have been through different manufacturers more than I’ve been through hot dinners so hoping someone has tried both of the above.
 
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4,558
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Terry
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I've had a Fuji XT1 & 2 and Olympus EM5 MK2.

Didn't get on with Fuji's sensor artifacts in LR.

Olympus is a brilliant system if you don't mind some noise at higher ISO's.

I have a Sony A7Rii now and can honestly say it's the best performing camera I've ever had. They're not as big as a DSLR either.

I'd recommend trying out different systems before you splash any cash.
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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I've had a Fuji XT1 & 2 and Olympus EM5 MK2.

Didn't get on with Fuji's sensor artifacts in LR.
Can you go into more details about the artifacts?

Olympus is a brilliant system if you don't mind some noise at higher ISO's.
I'm not fussed about ISO levels as I'd mainly be shooting on bright days.
 
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4,558
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Terry
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When Fuji first brought out the x-trans sensor Lightromm didn't handle the RAWs well at all.

Watercolour foliage artifacts were common for me. Waxy skin was an issue too.

Some users couldn't see them but I could.
 
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No experience of the Fujifilm - I've been shooting on micro 4/3rds since 2013 and have had an E-M10ii for a couple of years now.
Used, it's an absolute bargain. I've very, very happy with it and haven't seen the appeal of the mkiii or mkiv or the larger bodies.

The 14-42mm EZ kit zoom is a good place to start and makes for a very portable solution.
There are some excellent, cheap primes. I use the Olympus 17mm f1.8 a lot, the Panasonic f1.7 25mm is brilliant value too.
I bought the 12-40mm f2.8 PRO lens last year - while it's "big and heavy" for a m43 lens it's still very portable and compact in comparison to a DSLR lens.

Everything I've shot in this album was taken with the OM-D E-M10ii
Page 13 is the most recent stuff, Page 1 when I first got the camera and was still learning what it could do.
 
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Toni
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We sourced an E-M10 MK1 for my wife a few years back, and it's still good in bright light. Weakest points are viewfinder and image stabilization.
 

4wd

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North York Moors
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While Olympus stuff will be available a while yet I'd hesitate to recommend anyone to jump into that system when they are moving out of cameras so no further development.
 

4wd

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North York Moors
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Sony are the masters of mirrorless with good choice of lenses IMO
 
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Andrew
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The earliest Fuji I have used is the X-H1 which is a generation on from the X-T10.

Despite the move to Fuji I have kept my E-M10ii and lenses.

I think the EM10ii is one of the best value / feature / performance cameras ever made. It is physically small. If you use it with the smaller F1.8 primes then it's a lovely system to carry and use. One small bag can carry a small zoom and a couple of primes.

However - the Fuji X-T10 is a bit bigger. Like Olympus Fuji offer some decent smaller primes - the F2 and F2.8. I would also look at the X-T20 as an entry point if that is within your budget.

My view is that if you are planning to extend your system in the future then Fuji is probably the better option of the two. There are quite a few options as regards body uypgrades (different styles and generations).

OTOH if size is an overriding option - then he Olympus route and the smaller micro 4/3 lenses offer a unique compromise. And for all the hype about sensors and full frame - the micro 4/3 sensors are still capable of producing decent results.
 
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13,116
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Rich
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My choice would be either an Olympus E-M5 ii or a Panasonic G80, both 16mp and weather proof with effective in body stabilisation.
I have used Fuji and M4/3, the former would have remained my choice if they had stabilisation in their smaller bodies.

Lots of excellent lenses for both formats although M4/3 has more choice, some of the lenses for both makes are top class
For the vast majority of enthusiast photographers these cameras are more than adequate.
Mine have been carted all over the place, unbeatable for travel purposes when you can take everything in a small'ish bag
I cannot see most people being disappointed with the photos from either of those cameras
For top quality zooms look at something like the Olympus 12-40 or Panasonic 12-35 (f/2.8 version)
Primes are numerous, my favourites are the Panasonic 15/1.7 and 25/1.4
 
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Simon
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Just pre-ordered the new Lumix S5 with 20-60. Pre order before end of September and you get a free Sigma 45mm f2.8 prime. That's a full frame compact body, super wide to short Tele zoom and a tiny walk around prime for under 2000. Sold my Fuji system as I never got on with the xtrans sensor rendering. Just looks weird. Could have upgraded to the XT4 I suppose but really like the idea of having FF low light capability coupled with the high res and live composite mode on the S5. Good luck with your choice. Just my 2 cents worth
 
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13,116
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Rich
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While Olympus stuff will be available a while yet I'd hesitate to recommend anyone to jump into that system when they are moving out of cameras so no further development.
They have sold their camera division to a company who have confirmed they will continue manufacture and development.
Panasonic yesterday reaffirmed their commitment to M4/3, your comment serves no purpose and is misleading
 
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4,558
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Terry
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They have sold their camera division to a company who have confirmed they will continue manufacture and development.
Panasonic yesterday reaffirmed their commitment to M4/3, your comment serves no purpose and is misleading
It's not misleading, it's plain wrong.

JIP have confirmed the manufacture & development of the Olympus brand.
 
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Andrew
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While Olympus stuff will be available a while yet I'd hesitate to recommend anyone to jump into that system when they are moving out of cameras so no further development.
Sony now present a £2000 camera as 'entry level'.

We have a another post in this thread about an entry level Panasonic S5 with kit lens at £2000.

Camera upgrades have been incremental for the last few years. It feels to me as if manufacturers have spent the last few years pushing prices and margins as they get squeezed on volumes and smart phones take the lower market. So we see lots of lovely expensive bodies and lovely expensive lenses to go with them.

So how much for a EM10ii and a two or three cheaper primes and a zoom (the ones that don't officially retail at £1000+)? Well under a £1000 I suspect. I bought my EM10ii new a few years bacjk for under £400, a new 45mm f1.8 for under £200, 35-100 zoom for a bit over £100, and 17mm f1.8 new for under £300. I suspect that Olympus were struggling because at these prices they can't make margins off the volumes - and their attempts to push MFT body prices up to levels such as £1400+ and lenses to £1000+ are not sustainable - even if the kit is very very good - given the competition from APS-C and FF at those levels.

I think as long as you keep your eyes open as you make your decision that micro 4/3 is still a viable option. You can still buy new Oly and Panasonic bodies. Equipment doesn't stop performing because it is old or obsolete. Used kit will be around for a long while.
 
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We sourced an E-M10 MK1 for my wife a few years back, and it's still good in bright light. Weakest points are viewfinder and image stabilization.
FWIW I had the Mki and upgraded, the Mkii addresses both those weaknesses and adds Silent shutter and a few other bits and bobs.
It handles better too for me thanks to a slight change in the grip and button layout.

Noticeable differences include the inbuilt IS as the OM-D E-M10 Mark II shares the same 5-axis in-body Image Stabilisation as the E-M5 Mark II rather than the 3-axis found on the OM-D E-M10 and the viewfinder now has 2.36millon dots compared to the 1.44million on the original OM-D E-M10.
 
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Chris
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I had a EM10ii and it was a great little camera, I found I needed the optional extra grip though. I upgraded to an EM5ii for its weather sealing and preferred it's slightly larger size and again went for the added grip. I've since changed to Fuji and am loving the X-H1, which is bigger again, but I wanted weather sealing and IBIS, which not all of the XT range offers.

I'd happily use any of the 3 still, but given the choice I'd pick up the Fuji. Some of the smaller bodies without IBIS I'm not sure on personally as I'm used to having it, but everyone has their own requirments.
 
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I’m a canon fan but disappointed with their earlier efforts with mirrorless.
I’m now finding that carrying around a DSLR is becoming a bit too heavy so I’m looking into a more compact mirrorless system with an EVF for walk around and travel.
I’m not prepared to buy into a brand new systems just yet but I think I have narrowed it down to two used systems.
I’ve read some good reviews on the Olympus E-M10 MK II and Fujitsu X-T10.
I know some of you old timers have been through different manufacturers more than I’ve been through hot dinners so hoping someone has tried both of the above.
Haven't Canon brought out some new mirrorless camera (or cameras) that is meant to be very good? I still love my Canon SLRs so haven't genned up on recent mirrorless stuff, as I'm content with what I've got at the moment, and don't get enough time to use that as much as I'd like!
 
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7,267
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Steve
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I had issues with Adobe & my X-T1, BUT.....

Adobe have updated their software many times since, and I now run an X-T2 & X-T3 with no issues at all in Lightroom. Quite honestly, even with my X-T1, once I had learned how to use the sliders with Fuji raw files, they weren't that bad. The next generation sensor was much better, and I use Lightroom on all of my files, and I'm completely Fuji now.

I think an X-T20 would be a better option for not a lot of difference in cost.
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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Haven't Canon brought out some new mirrorless camera (or cameras) that is meant to be very good? I still love my Canon SLRs so haven't genned up on recent mirrorless stuff, as I'm content with what I've got at the moment, and don't get enough time to use that as much as I'd like!
Yes they have but their older generation mirrorless bodies within my budget don't have an EVF built in and with some of the older models they charge silly money for an optional EVF.
The Fujifilm and Olympus lenses I would use are also fairly inexpensive hence another reason for looking at these two.
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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I think an X-T20 would be a better option for not a lot of difference in cost.
Mbp are asking double the price of a X-T10 for the X-T20 (£400).
Both the X-T10 and E-M10 MKII can be picked up for around £200 some are also supplied with kit lenses.
I have set a limit of around £300 as I'm not bothered about latest spec sensors or megapixel count for the time being.
If I like the mirrorless tech I will eventually invest in a new model, however, I've read that the Canon M5 & M50 can only take around 250 photos before the battery needs recharging so they won't be an option for me.
 
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Mbp are asking double the price of a X-T10 for the X-T20 (£400).
Both the X-T10 and E-M10 MKII can be picked up for around £200 some are also supplied with kit lenses.
I have set a limit of around £300 as I'm not bothered about latest spec sensors or megapixel count for the time being.
If I like the mirrorless tech I will eventually invest in a new model, however, I've read that the Canon M5 & M50 can only take around 250 photos before the battery needs recharging so they won't be an option for me.
1) battery ratings are almost always wrong.
2) battery in the pocket if you really need it.
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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Olympus are doing a direct deal for the EM-10 MK III with the 14-42 EZ lens for £399 and Currys are doing the same but also with the 40-150 lens for £542 although this lens can be picked up on Ebay for under a £100 used.
I could push the budget, hmm...Decisions decisions.
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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1) battery ratings are almost always wrong.
2) battery in the pocket if you really need it.
Yes but Canon are not an option for my toe dipping budget but this may change in the future.
 
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Andrew
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I've read that the Canon M5 & M50 can only take around 250 photos before the battery needs recharging so they won't be an option for me.
Batteries are small and (third party ones are) cheap.

And 250 shots per battery a problem? How on earth did we ever survive on 36 exposures of 35mm file?
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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Batteries are small and (third party ones are) cheap.

And 250 shots per battery a problem? How on earth did we ever survive on 36 exposures of 35mm file?
fair point(y)
 
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Andrew
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Olympus are doing a direct deal for the EM-10 MK III with the 14-42 EZ lens for £399 and Currys are doing the same but also with the 40-150 lens for £542 although this lens can be picked up on Ebay for under a £100 used.
I could push the budget, hmm...Decisions decisions.
Take a look at HDEW. Em10iii kit with the 14-42 and 40-150 for £419.
 
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Best thing to do is decide on your budget then look at whats available, at around £500 theres a lot of choice.
 
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10,116
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Jeff
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While Olympus stuff will be available a while yet I'd hesitate to recommend anyone to jump into that system when they are moving out of cameras so no further development.
What a load of b******t , who ever told you that They just launched one big lens that’s so popular It’s got waiting lists worldwide , another pro lens is due before Christmas and JIP who are taking over have affirmed they will be developing new stuff not selling it off ..
 
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Olympus are doing a direct deal for the EM-10 MK III with the 14-42 EZ lens for £399 and Currys are doing the same but also with the 40-150 lens for £542 although this lens can be picked up on Ebay for under a £100 used.
I could push the budget, hmm...Decisions decisions.
If you're comparison shopping E-M10 check the 14-42mm lens - there is the EZ motorised pancake and the larger (but not large) 14-42mm II R (in the link I posted below & the £399 offer on Olympus you referred to).
I have both lenses - one bundled with an E-PL5 and one with my first E-M10. They're both decent.
The EZ is lighter but the motorised zoom can be annoying if you want to go from end to end or want to be very accurate in framing.
The II R is a bit bigger, you need to twist it to open/unlock the lens before you can use it but then you have a smooth manual zoom.
Look for the lock switch on the top of the lens in the product shots to spot the difference - Jessops used to do lots of bundles with the cheaper II R.

This shows the two lenses side by side

For me the ii was/is the sweet spot
£350 with a "free" 64GB Sandisk card & the IIR kit lens.

Be aware that the Mkiii added 4K but removed some things you might want.
IIRC exposure bracketing and HDR is only available in the auto modes not P/A/S/M
They also removed some remote flash compatibility (never bothered me).
The menu interface was also made simpler.
You'll find the full details online.
 
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hashcake
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5,647
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Darran, Daz or ****
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If you're comparison shopping E-M10 check the 14-42mm lens - there is the EZ motorised pancake and the larger (but not large) 14-42mm II R
I already knew about these but thanks anyway.

(Be aware that the Mkiii added 4K but removed some things you might want.
IIRC exposure bracketing and HDR is only available in the auto modes not P/A/S/M
They also removed some remote flash compatibility (never bothered me).
The menu interface was also made simpler.
You'll find the full details online.
This I didn't know and I sometimes use exposure bracketing for landscapes so thanks for pointing it out.
I'm currently watching a few E-M10 MKII on ebay so I will see if I can get one.
It's a tad annoying that are only selling the MKII for £50 cheaper than the MKIII, if the MKII kit was around £300 I'd happily but a new one.
 
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Try some in a shop, you will likely find the EVF quality a huge deal with mirrorless.

I have used maybe 10+ and the EVF varied from pathetic to ok.

I still think EVF is one of mirrorless main strengths but it needs refining and no doubt will be far far better in the future.

The 1st time i used mirrorless i just thought how unnatural the EVF looked, kinda fuzzy, laggy and odd. I missed optical straight away.
 
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I’ve used Fuji and Olympus, my preference is for the Olympus for few reasons. Firstly whilst I like the ‘idea’ of all the manual controls of Fuji I didn’t like it as much as I thought I would. Secondly despite the improvement in Adobe products and more modern x-trans sensors you do still get mild artefacts. Whether you notice it, or are bothered by it will be down to the user.

Lastly Olympus lenses can be lighter and cheaper than the Fuji ones.
 
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This I didn't know and I sometimes use exposure bracketing for landscapes so thanks for pointing it out.
I'm currently watching a few E-M10 MKII on ebay so I will see if I can get one.
It's a tad annoying that are only selling the MKII for £50 cheaper than the MKIII, if the MKII kit was around £300 I'd happily but a new one.
I use bracketing now and then - combined with a burst and stabilisation you can then use HDR in Lightroom to rescue low light shots and those with very high dynamic range.
I have to admit I've programmed function buttons for BKT and HDR and have sometimes wondered what was going on when I caught them by accident and missed the icon in the EVF :)
You can find the manuals online and compare how the implementations work - it may not be a deal breaker as you can still manually change the exposure without trouble.

MBP have a lot of E-M10 ii at what look like great prices compared to what comes up on eBay - around £200 for the body.
I assume you're aware of Used Lens (run by a member here)?
 
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