Discussion thread about discussion threads about stickies

Ambermile

Ambermile

A Whole Lot of Sparkle..
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Arthur
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Right - do we really need "How to..." stickies in here? Whilst I'll be the first to admit that new filmies will want to know how to develop, how to print, etc. id this really the place for it? There is an almost infinite amount of info online and in print about this side of things already... I first started doing this stuff in 1984 and *I* don't feel qualified or confident enough to write something that would steer someone through their first film/print - similarly I would not expect to be told how to frame an image or even make a cup of tea... that's stuff you learn as you go not from a bullet list.


As I said though, maybe I'm getting old and miserable and people no longer have the urge to go out and find the information ... it's gotta be right there on a plate.



Grumpy old git Arthur
 
"is this really the place for it" - where --- ---- do you think *is* the place?
 
No idea where it/they should go - that's nothing to do with this - it's just one of those things I feel you learn better by doing not by numbers.
 
That's telling me then.. no room for beginners here..

.. off to find a less elitist forum. I came to this forum to learn, but obviously you're worried that the knowledge will somehow wear out if it's shared.
 
Some people like to learn by doing it themselves, some like to follow a guide as to how it can be done.

I am struggling to see the harm a "How to..." can cause, unless it is completely inaccurate and steers people in the wrong direction.

There are many "How to..." guides on here that I have found very useful and have helped me avoid many pitfalls etc.
 
Arthur,

I am very sorry if my two threads offend you but the whole idea was to put together a simple how to on how to develop a film and then print a print. I have managed to develop my first three films with lots of help from people on here and I was most grateful for their help. I have mixed the chemicals and got the equipment together to print my first pictures but having some kind of step by step would be helpful. I think I know what to do but getting other people's input would be very helpful. I am not putting myself forward as any kind of expert at all. I have used one set of chemicals and developed 3 films of two types. I have not done any slide or colour either!

I was simply trying to open up a discussion on best practice to do a job with everyones input THEN we can make it a VERY useful resource and make it a sticky. I for one would have found it very useful when I did my films and will find it very useful when I do my first prints (hopefully in the next few days).
 
I think its a brill idea. I wish i had seen a simple 'how to' when I first started that showed how easy it really is... If one asked on here, one would often get a link to the ilford guide which I, personally, never found of any use...
 
Darren, they don't offend me at all - in fact I applaud you for having a go... but it's a very fine line to walk trying to explain in text how to do something, in the dark, with chemicals, with little or no experience, and get it right. (e.g. why mention multigrade in a beginner thread?). There are many many books, leaflets, pdf's, how to's scattered around... is there *really* a need to add to it?
 
Ambermile said:
Darren, they don't offend me at all - in fact I applaud you for having a go... but it's a very fine line to walk trying to explain in text how to do something, in the dark, with chemicals, with little or no experience, and get it right. (e.g. why mention multigrade in a beginner thread?). There are many many books, leaflets, pdf's, how to's scattered around... is there *really* a need to add to it?
Click to expand...

Thats the point, I wanted a big discussion and two threads showing what to do. You can't just do it off the cuff if you don't actually know how to do it. The multigrade bit is in there because that is what I have and I have no idea what to do with it. It has now been explained.... If the multigrade bit is not normal I will point this out in the guide as an optional step.

I have looked at many online guides plus several old books and what I have been told. I wanted to condense it into a nice step by step guide.

Once people have read the guide and used it they can then go off and modify it for themselves like dumping the stop steps in film dev and just washing before the fix or things like that. Having the guide just gives people a simple no nonsense starting point.

EDIT: I've changed the multigrade line following your comment, that is the point.
 
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Way back when dinosaurs ruled the earth and I started my own developing I spent/wasted a fortune on books and using trial and error. Having a good resource thats easy to find and is comprehensive is worth its weight in gold. Helping others in photography is surely what these forums are about?
Don't assume that because you have the nouse to use your pc to go look for things that other people also have it.
 
My two pen'arth:

In some respects Arthur is right, in the the best learning is done by experience.

On the other hand, when it comes to developing, you are messing about with potentially nasty chemicals and some sort of basic guidance is a good idea.

The reason why I'm chirping up is that in the past couple of months, leading up to getting a decent film body, I've been reading this section of the site quite a bit. I was more than a little surprised to find no stickies and no advice in the tutorial forum about home developing what-so-ever. It's a subject that's frequently discussed on here in a round about fashion, and if you dig enough most of the information is there; but it takes one hell of a lot of finding.

For such an active film forum, which is constantly encouraging potential new members to take up the dark/lost art of self processing (which is a logical step if you want to use proper BW film) it does seem to be a rather obvious thing to have.

Self dev is quite a step to take if you've been cosseted by digital, and anyone that has more than a basic knowledge of photography (and also forums) usually hates having to ask newbie style questions, at the risk of being told to use the search function. Yes there is a lot of info available via Google, but I'd rather read a quick run down either by people whom I know to be experienced, or a script that's been put together by a joint effort with their oversight. Once I've got the basic info to hand, I can expand on that with my own research and build my experience having a rough idea what to take seriously and what to ignore.

In answer to Arthur's original question, 'do we need how to stickies', the answer I'd give is possibly not, however if you choose that path then please please put some write ups in the tutorial forum!
 
Alastair said:
That's telling me then.. no room for beginners here..

.. off to find a less elitist forum. I came to this forum to learn, but obviously you're worried that the knowledge will somehow wear out if it's shared.
Click to expand...
the sticky is still there, and I see no reason to move it, so no need to go elsewhere at all
 
My feelings, for what they're worth, are as follows...

I've spent quite a decent amount of time recommending people who want to get into home developing to go out and read the very helpful Ilford PDF, and then come back and ask anything that's not obvious. That's pretty much what I did when I got back into developing my own stuff.

The processing of Black and White film is such a wide-open process that it's difficult to give a comprehensive solution - after all - how many films/developer combinations are there out there - Most of us will only scratch the surface, or will find a couple of films we like, and eventually settle on a one or two developers that suit them. So - I think that this part may be the place where a collaborative effort may work. In the space of under 20 messages, the film processing thread turned out a nice easy to follow process chart that is almost identical to the one that I was handed when I joined my schools photographic club back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. To me that says that this "discussion thread" method does seem to work - even if the person who started the thread didn't have years and years of experience.

So - what i'd say, is lets give it a try, anyone who has something to add to the knowledge, feed it in, and lets pull it together, edit as appropriate, and eventually get it into a format where the salient instructions can be chopped out, and turned into a series of write ups for the tutorial forum.

I'd also suggest something that covers the sourcing of developing and printing kit and film stock if possible.
 
TheBigYin said:
My feelings, for what they're worth, are as follows...

I've spent quite a decent amount of time recommending people who want to get into home developing to go out and read the very helpful Ilford PDF, and then come back and ask anything that's not obvious. That's pretty much what I did when I got back into developing my own stuff.

The processing of Black and White film is such a wide-open process that it's difficult to give a comprehensive solution - after all - how many films/developer combinations are there out there - Most of us will only scratch the surface, or will find a couple of films we like, and eventually settle on a one or two developers that suit them. So - I think that this part may be the place where a collaborative effort may work. In the space of under 20 messages, the film processing thread turned out a nice easy to follow process chart that is almost identical to the one that I was handed when I joined my schools photographic club back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. To me that says that this "discussion thread" method does seem to work - even if the person who started the thread didn't have years and years of experience.

So - what i'd say, is lets give it a try, anyone who has something to add to the knowledge, feed it in, and lets pull it together, edit as appropriate, and eventually get it into a format where the salient instructions can be chopped out, and turned into a series of write ups for the tutorial forum.

I'd also suggest something that covers the sourcing of developing and printing kit and film stock if possible.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark, your advice when I first started with the film was invaluable and I am really pleased with the results. I just thought that a few stickies would be very helpful. I definitely think that a sticky on the sourcing of kit etc would be another great addition. Yes I volunteered to jump in a start the thread but like you said I really am very much a beginner.
 
I don't see that 'how to' threads do any damage unless they are taking up space on the forum/server that costs money or leaves no room for other stuff which I don't think is the case here or if anyone asking questions gets told to go look at the 'how to' thread and doesn't get their questions answered.
 
andephotographic said:
I don't see that 'how to' threads do any damage unless they are taking up space on the forum/server that costs money or leaves no room for other stuff which I don't think is the case here or if anyone asking questions gets told to go look at the 'how to' thread and doesn't get their questions answered.
Click to expand...

I have found that the film forum does not tend to do that and everyone is really rather helpful and nice :) (y)
 
In principle, I don't have a problem with a basic "soup your own" sticky and I applaud Darrens efforts in taking the time to write it.
I just think the one currently proposed is a shade obsessive, covers too many angles and leaves you as the prospective developer with very little coal required to burn between the ears.
It appears to be as likely to put as many people off as it encourages.
But if we are going to poo poo it, somebody should man up a write an alternative because it looks like it could only be a useful addition to FF.

Now lets all club together and buy Alastair a big fat roll up cos its our fault he's not feelin the gaye arty man love there is got goin on in FF...:)
 
I'm scared of doing my own processing because I have absolutely no idea of what to do. A sticky with a basic step-by-step run through would probably give me the confidence to have a go.

Andy
 
Whilst I found some DIY steps and walkthroughs on the internet, nothing beats tips and advice from people who share your passion and also know a little about your gear and shooting style. Many walkthrough guides leave a few things out or instruct how to develop, for example, with slightly different chemicals or steps to those other people talk about. Whilst these FAQ sites gave me the gist of the process, speaking to people here confirmed what I knew and highlighted one or two extra details.

As an owner of the largest bass guitar forum in Europe we often get new people asking the same questions, but that's fine because it's what keeps forums going, otherwise we would just make a wiki. We tend to advise those who are annoyed by such threads to not read them, but it's a shame because sometimes those people have a lot of pointers and advice to share - which can indeed be found by searching but is often written in a different context which isn't always easy to appreciate as a new bug.

Share the love - we all asked once (mine was only a few weeks ago!)

ped
 
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