Do you think Nikon will make an SLR again

myotis said:
Well, my 55mm f2.8 micro-nikkor is now nearly 40 years old, which I bought new, so I think I'm with you on getting value for money from my lenses. All my lenses, with one exception are AFS or manual focus, so I would happily use an adaptor with a Z body. I know the Z lenses are excellent, but I've tested my two Ais micro-nikkors against the 60mm f2.8 micro-nikkor and the 100mm Canon L macro, and was surprised at how good my old micro-nikkors were.

A Fuji medium format also appeals, as I shoot mainly square and my existing manual focus Nikon and Zeiss lenses would work fine with an adapter on a Fuji.

But I'm in no hurry to change.
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You're beating my hands down. I like a square crop - and where older lenses fall down is usually in the edges. I had a 70-210 F4 from the80's. Great in the middle, nearly as good as the all singing all dancing 70-200 2.8 E I have now, but hopeless in the edges. Square crops solve that issue.

Cost wise for new systems that Fuji looks great and would be my, handling preferences not confirmed, body of choice. Never liked any of the Sony stuff, lots do but don't feel the love for the layout, menus, form factor at all. Fuji camera's also render colours very nicely, in a way Sony's just do not.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Some like the extra weight and the big plus of the mirror is that it protects the sensor from dust bunnies...big time - for those who shoot stopped down it is a thing. Saves time in editing. OVF's are famililar to a lot, they feel natural to compose with. For many that is a plus...but I can see the lie of the land now...the bulky body actually makes hand holding easier, heavy body, light lens balances better than heavy lens, light body which is a problem with full frame sony things.

I am drawn to the medium format for the obvious, but also it cannot be too small by virtue of that big sensor. I liked the full frame panasonic 50mp thing from a handling point of view, I thought the Sony systems A7R3 and A7R2's I've encountered on workshops are awfully small and I didn't like the lay out at all. Full frame panasonic though vs that Fuji medium format and gut says bigger sensor for the same outlay. Wasn't sold on the form factor of the Z7 but price wise it's a step down from these systems...but I am finanically not in a terrible place so don't mind a more expensive system
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The last DSLR I had was the Canon 5D and that was just awful for sensor contamination and certainly worse than any of the previous DSLR's I had. I believe that over time sensor coatings have got more resistant to contamination as have the camera bodies themselves as they now shed less debris into the internals, no flappy mirror mechanism shedding shards and no oil etc. It's not been a worry for me with any of my mirrorless cameras and I do a lot of lens changes and I do them in any environment I'm in. I also stop down when needed. I set off with a clean camera and I check it when I get home and can't remember having any significant issues for years, since my 5D days really. I've heard the extra weight argument before and I find it utterly bizarre. As has been said, some mirrorless cameras aren't small they're the size film cameras were for decades and it's only recently that we've see the emergence of the larger and heavier DSLR but tastes are taste so here we are with different views.

For those who do prefer DSLR's I hope the manufacturer keep knocking them out but I do think the market realities are running against them.
 
woof woof said:
The last DSLR I had was the Canon 5D and that was just awful for sensor contamination and certainly worse than any of the previous DSLR's I had. I believe that over time sensor coatings have got more resistant to contamination as have the camera bodies themselves as they now shed less debris into the internals, no flappy mirror mechanism shedding shards and no oil etc. It's not been a worry for me with any of my mirrorless cameras and I do a lot of lens changes and I do them in any environment I'm in. I also stop down when needed. I set off with a clean camera and I check it when I get home and can't remember having any significant issues for years, since my 5D days really. I've heard the extra weight argument before and I find it utterly bizarre. As has been said, some mirrorless cameras aren't small they're the size film cameras were for decades and it's only recently that we've see the emergence of the larger and heavier DSLR but tastes are taste so here we are with different views.

For those who do prefer DSLR's I hope the manufacturer keep knocking them out but I do think the market realities are running against them.
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I never had a film camera, only digital. To me these bodies (oversized to you) are just the norm. Stick even a heavy prime on and it hand holds beautifully. Stick a heavy lens onto an A7 and it tips forward. Irrelevant for tripod shooters that has to be said.

I suspect market forces will run these camera's I am used to out of town, much like 4 engine passenger planes, V12 and V8 engines etc
 
woof woof said:
For those who do prefer DSLR's I hope the manufacturer keep knocking them out but I do think the market realities are running against them.
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I know it is going to come to an end soon and I realise the benefits presented by the likes of R5 already, and lots more to come. There are of course natural reasons holding me back for now:

1. Cost. I will have to wait some longer before that R5 or more likely mkII cost less than half. Of course I could have A7RIV for almost that now. And then the exorbitant cost of new lenses.
2. Size. R5+grip is nearly OK, preferably they will make something a little bigger. Panasonic would be great except they will probably go the way of olympus with their camera division.
3. EVF. They have come a very long way to being acceptable in some situations but it is obvious they will keep on evolving very rapidly for the next few years until they match the clarity of dynamic range of clear air, glass and a piece of mirror. I compose all my work through OVF and I want to see everything that is out there to the last detail rather than the filtered, crippled, and baked output of current EVF.

In fact a new camera would do very little for my end output now, only mostly affect the process. Win some, lose some. Until of course {if} I get into video...

woof woof said:
The last DSLR I had was the Canon 5D and that was just awful for sensor contamination and certainly worse than any of the previous DSLR's I had. I
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Believe me the recent Canons manage to stay ridiculously clean. The 5DIII I sold had over 100k on the clock, was cleaned once by Canon like 3 years ago and had maybe 5 or 6 larger spots at f/10, invisible below f/8. The other one is a similar story. The 5Ds is too new to say anything (or spot anything) but a similar non-Canon mirrorless might be quite filthy already. Canon has retained a physical shutter that closes in between use so even despite lack of mirror they have some protection unlike the rest.
 
Pro photographers need pro cameras. Now I don't know much about mirrorless, I don't know whether or not anybody makes pro versions but someone, somewhere is going to make SLRs for the foreseeable future, whether Jo Public will want them or be able to afford them is another matter. Manufacturers make what the market demands, or doesn't. If they can make money out of DSLRs then they will make them, if not, they won't. Look at the motorcycle industry, I am a big fan of sports tourers, can I buy a new one that is newly developed? No, unless it's a Honda VFR800 which was last altered in about 2015 or 16 I think. Not one other manufacturer makes a sports tourer as everyone wants adventure bikes now so that's what they make. Market forces, you can't beat them, might as well join them.
 
ShinySideUp said:
Pro photographers need pro cameras. Now I don't know much about mirrorless, I don't know whether or not anybody makes pro versions but someone, somewhere is going to make SLRs for the foreseeable future, whether Jo Public will want them or be able to afford them is another matter. Manufacturers make what the market demands, or doesn't. If they can make money out of DSLRs then they will make them, if not, they won't. Look at the motorcycle industry, I am a big fan of sports tourers, can I buy a new one that is newly developed? No, unless it's a Honda VFR800 which was last altered in about 2015 or 16 I think. Not one other manufacturer makes a sports tourer as everyone wants adventure bikes now so that's what they make. Market forces, you can't beat them, might as well join them.
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Do you mean adventure bikes that are more often seen parked up outside Bikers Haunt cafes. (???) Adventure bikes that are not seen out of doors except on sunny days in mid summer(????) or adventure bikes that are used by the minority of buyers to full fill the manufacturers designs and cover vast mileages, Most of those in the first two categories are sold on after a couple of years after covering very few miles. Compare them to the likes of Range Rovers dubbed Chelsea Tractors that are not used for anything like their capabilities..

I don't have one and never even wanted one, an Adventure bike that is. Personally I dislike the design. I am perfectly happy with my tourer that I can use all the year and be assured that the very large and efficient fairing will keep the worst of the weather off me. (I do draw the line for reasons of safety when there is snow or ice though.}

But going back to the original topic. I am not a designer and have no idea what could be done with the 'tough as old boots' pro cameras that are sold today to make them more desirable to pros and well heeled amateurs. They (the cameras) have far more tricks in their armoury than the early versions and before that with the likes of the Nikon F2 or canon F1.
Are you like me? Can you actually see a terrific improvement in the quality of or pictures taken by the press using modern modern digital kit than I did with motor driven film cameras. Is the main advantage the number of pictures that can be taken on a memory card is far more than a film camera. How many D6 models will last as long as an F2?

This argument could and probably will drag on and on, but I have an idea that the appearance of new models, some only months apart is only driven to attract new customers and relieve them of even more cash to fill the pockets of their shareholders.
 
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toohuge said:
I understand that.

I shoot mainly large sporting events - where I could start as early as 8am and finish approx 12 hours later.... I am not a unique use case nor am I the majority... however for others in my situation, battery life etc. is a nightmare scenario to have to comprehend
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I wouldn't read too much into CIPA ratings for mirrorless cameras, particularly if shooting events where you're constantly at it like motorsport etc. The a7III is rated for 710 shots but will comfortably clear 2000 in event conditions (unless it's really, really cold). There are a good number of sports photographers shooting events like the Le Man 24 with the Sony a9 now.

I covered the Silverstone 24hr with Fuji X-T1s 'back in the day', two bodies, rated at 350 shots each. I cleared 3000 between them before changing batteries.
 
I assume people have picked up on the Z9 announcement from Nikon

nikonrumors.com

Nikon Z9 professional mirrorless camera development officially announced - Nikon Rumors

As I already reported, Nikon just announced the development of their long-rumored Z9 professional mirrorless camera. The only details provided are: newly developed FX-format stacked CMOS sensor new image-processing engine support for 8K video recording various other video specifications The...
nikonrumors.com nikonrumors.com
 
myotis said:
I assume people have picked up on the Z9 announcement from Nikon

nikonrumors.com

Nikon Z9 professional mirrorless camera development officially announced - Nikon Rumors

As I already reported, Nikon just announced the development of their long-rumored Z9 professional mirrorless camera. The only details provided are: newly developed FX-format stacked CMOS sensor new image-processing engine support for 8K video recording various other video specifications The...
nikonrumors.com nikonrumors.com
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Well, that rather puts the nail in the coffin of the pro SLR. I suppose it's the natural order of things otherwise we'd all still be using plate cameras with black cloths over our heads.
 
ShinySideUp said:
Well, that rather puts the nail in the coffin of the pro SLR. I suppose it's the natural order of things otherwise we'd all still be using plate cameras with black cloths over our heads.
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The interview with Nikon last week, said something along the lines of them not producing a "pro" level mirrorless until they know they could exceed the capabilities of the D6.

So I guess this is it, with the Z8 name being kept free for a D850 replacement.
 
myotis said:
I assume people have picked up on the Z9 announcement from Nikon

nikonrumors.com

Nikon Z9 professional mirrorless camera development officially announced - Nikon Rumors

As I already reported, Nikon just announced the development of their long-rumored Z9 professional mirrorless camera. The only details provided are: newly developed FX-format stacked CMOS sensor new image-processing engine support for 8K video recording various other video specifications The...
nikonrumors.com nikonrumors.com
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My first reaction was 'I hope it's not as ugly as that Nikon Rumors mockup', but then I realised they were using Nikon's own picture:

pic_210310_01_01.jpg

www.nikon.com

Nikon is developing the Nikon Z 9 full-frame flagship mirrorless camera | News | Nikon About Us

www.nikon.com

"The appearance of the camera may differ from the photo shown above" - let's hope so.
 
myotis said:
The interview with Nikon last week, said something along the lines of them not producing a "pro" level mirrorless until they know they could exceed the capabilities of the D6.

So I guess this is it, with the Z8 name being kept free for a D850 replacement.
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I thought Z7/ii were the D850 replacement
 
I think it's the stark asymmetry and the mix of F5 house style curviness and angularity that don't appeal to me. Though of course I'll still want one when it comes out. :)
 
nandbytes said:
I thought Z7/ii were the D850 replacement
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Personally, that never occurred to me as it didn't meet the criteria you associate with Nikon professional bodies, and they seemed to clearly fit into the D750/D610 class of camera.

I have always seen the Z7 as a mirrorless, and dumbed down, D750 (single card slot, no battery grip, non-professional ergonomics, poor sports/wildlife performance), that left room for an upcoming Z8.
 
myotis said:
Personally, that never occurred to me as it didn't meet the criteria you associate with Nikon professional bodies, and they seemed to clearly fit into the D750/D610 class of camera.

I have always seen the Z7 as a mirrorless, and dumbed down, D750 (single card slot, no battery grip, non-professional ergonomics, poor sports/wildlife performance), that left room for an upcoming Z8.
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Z7ii has two card slots, grip available, I don't know what you mean by "professional ergonomics" if you just mean huge like a DSLR then we'd just have to agree to disagree on that, and poor AF performance is not nikon dumbing it down its just how far they have got technologically on the AF in mirrorless market.
 
nandbytes said:
Z7ii has two card slots, grip available, I don't know what you mean by "professional ergonomics" if you just mean huge like a DSLR then we'd just have to agree to disagree on that, and poor AF performance is not nikon dumbing it down its just how far they have got technologically on the AF in mirrorless market.
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Yes, I know the Z7II now has two slots and a battery grip, and I didn't mean to imply that Nikon were dumbing down the AF. I was just listing the things that meant the Z7 and to a lesser extent the Z7II was never viewed by me as a D850 replacement.

And while size is part of it, the pro Nikon bodies (D500, D850, D6 and predecessors) have always had different controls in different places to their other bodies that have clearly identified them as their pro bodies (the z9 also has this layout). It's always been a distinguishing feature of the Nikon "pro bodies" along with the memory banks.

But it was also the numbering, why start with a Z6 and Z7, it makes sense when you look at how the Ds might move across to the Zs:

Z6 -> D6xx
Z7 -> D7xx
Z8 -> D8xx
Z9 -> Dx

Taking it all together, it just never added up for me that the Z7 would be the D850 replacement.
 
I don't know much about mirrorless cameras so have just brought myself up to speed. If others are in a similar boat have a read of this: DSLR vs Mirrorless
 
ShinySideUp said:
I don't know much about mirrorless cameras so have just brought myself up to speed. If others are in a similar boat have a read of this: DSLR vs Mirrorless
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That piece was apparently written in February 2020 but I think that parts of it read as if written years before. For example the section on mirrorless camera limitations include EVF lag and focus tracking. IMVHO EVF lag hasn't been an issue for years and mirrorless tracking is now very good.

Caveats being that it may be possible to find a mirrorless camera with awful lag and / or awful tracking if you go looking but the same applies to some OVF equipped cameras with awful OVF's and dire focus systems.

The biggest advantages of mirrorless for me are WYSIWYG, consistent and reliable focus, the ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame, face/eye detect (and this is IMO a real game changer) and the ability to mount just about any lens ever made and manually focus extremely accurately with it.

To me the only advantages of DSLRs are the fact that you can get them very cheaply and they'll be compatible with lenses you already have, battery life and the OVF experience if that's what you value.
 
woof woof said:
To me the only advantages of DSLRs are the fact that you can get them very cheaply and they'll be compatible with lenses you already have, battery life and the OVF experience if that's what you value.
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Those reasons all trump mirrorless's supposed advantages for me. :LOL:
 
myotis said:
Yes, I know the Z7II now has two slots and a battery grip, and I didn't mean to imply that Nikon were dumbing down the AF. I was just listing the things that meant the Z7 and to a lesser extent the Z7II was never viewed by me as a D850 replacement.

And while size is part of it, the pro Nikon bodies (D500, D850, D6 and predecessors) have always had different controls in different places to their other bodies that have clearly identified them as their pro bodies (the z9 also has this layout). It's always been a distinguishing feature of the Nikon "pro bodies" along with the memory banks.

But it was also the numbering, why start with a Z6 and Z7, it makes sense when you look at how the Ds might move across to the Zs:

Z6 -> D6xx
Z7 -> D7xx
Z8 -> D8xx
Z9 -> Dx

Taking it all together, it just never added up for me that the Z7 would be the D850 replacement.
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Or you could say this:
Z5 -> D6xx
Z6 -> D7xx
Z7 -> D8xx
Z9 -> Dx

Mirrorless don't/won't necessarily follow the same style naming convention as DSLRs (Sony certainly don't and are also all over place, I think Nikon is the similar but less all over the place yet).
designing 5-6 different style bodies actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense any more. Partly the reason I think Sony have stuck with their not so ergonomically good designs.

The DSLR world started back when camera sales were lot higher and it made financial sense to design and make various bodies from low end APS-C (D3XXX) to high end APS-C to low-end FF to high end FF to sports bodies and so. There is no financial incentive to design so many body types like so and things are mostly consolidating now. You can see that even on canon the R5 and R6 are mostly the same body design despite at different price points and target audience. Same with panasonic.

Think you will have the standard FF (A7III, Z6, R6, S1) and high-res (A7RIV, Z7, R5, S1R) which will probably have the same body design. Then a compact or starter FF (Z5, A7C, RP, S5). Then there is the sports bodies does like Z9 or Sony A9 (now A1) and so on.

That's it I think there won't be many more bodies or difference between them. Only time will tell of course but that my take on it. If you want a D850 replacement Z7ii is it IMO.

Sony have gone even further and they basically have just 2 or 2.5 designs :D
One for APS-C the A6XXX style (which they reused for A7C) and the FF style which are all the same and the sport bodies are a slight modification on top of the standard bodies.
Canon looks to be heading the same way with their FF.
And Nikon seems to be the same also but they have larger sports body possibly.
 
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Ed Sutton said:
Those reasons all trump mirrorless's supposed advantages for me. :LOL:
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Yes, I can see that and living in the past can be wonderful and I do that but would you recommend a DSLR to someone just starting? Someone without a bag full of legacy lenses? Other than for the fact that you can get a DSLR and two lens kit for just a few hundred quid (but it'll be arguably poor and with again arguably limited capabilities) I wouldn't as mirrorless is undoubtable the future particularly if we consider the convergence of stills and video which could be especially important to youngsters growing up with smartphone technology and for whatever reason wanting a more specialist camera/video camera.
 
woof woof said:
Yes, I can see that and living in the past can be wonderful and I do that but would you recommend a DSLR to someone just starting? Someone without a bag full of legacy lenses? Other than for the fact that you can get a DSLR and two lens kit for just a few hundred quid (but it'll be arguably poor and with again arguably limited capabilities) I wouldn't as mirrorless is undoubtable the future particularly if we consider the convergence of stills and video which could be especially important to youngsters growing up with smartphone technology and for whatever reason wanting a more specialist camera/video camera.
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No, I'd recommend going with the current technology (or fairly recent S/H if on a budget) with a long future to someone starting out. Buy into a growing rather than a dead or dying system makes sense if you're twenty-something.

But I'm not starting out, I'm coming to the end. I don't have twenty years left in me! A ten year old DSLR would still do everything I want it to do (nothing to do with nostalgia), but I'm using my five (maybe more) year old ones until they or I break. If one or both die before me then I'll either replace with a used version of the same or a used version of the replacement. A camera's just a box for making photographs. If I had to I'd manage well enough with a state of the art mirrorless camera. :)

Remember, not everyone has pots of disposable cash like you and the gearheads on here always chasing the latest and greatest, swapping systems more often than they change their socks. Photography's about the pictures, not the technology. :D
 
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If there is one thing that will drag me screaming and kicking into using mirrorless it is going to be decent spec video and the rising demand for it from commercial clients. It was hard to justify getting any of older offerings but since Canon R5/R6 it is getting very hard to resist for much longer. That Sony A1 or this Nikon would be perfect if not for the very steep price + all the lenses. It's just a shame Canons were made like a toy without good thermals; and to be fair global shutter would be something that I would really really appreciate from what I can see so far using my DSLR for video.
 
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