DSLRs Vs EVILs......

specialman

specialman

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Pat MacInnes
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My Dad has just retired and with some of his retirement money, he wants to buy 'a proper camera' as he calls them.

Anyway, he always covets my D2x, but aside from me needing mine (and one being a bit bashed up), I've told him there are much more suitable cameras for him as someone who'll be taking snaps but wants to learn a bit more about creative techniques.

He's seen the adverts for the Lumix G-series on TV and he's mentioned that as a possibility, and I've said he also has option like the PEN and standard, lower-end DSLRs like the D90, Dxxxx, EOS xxxD and the funky Pentax ones (amomng others).

He likes the idea of a smaller, lightweight camera like an Lumix G but seeing as I don't have experience with these types of camera (and he isn't the best researcher of the internet), anyone willing to give their opinions, especially those who've made the swap from a regular (pentaprism) camera to an EVIL (or vice versa)?....

What pros/cons are most apparent for everyday shooting? What limitations do EVILs have for the average user? How does sensor size stack up in realworld results?

He'll never be wanting to buy into 600mm lenses and that kind of things - a f/2.8 17-50/55 equivalent will probably be all he'll want - so massive benefits of major systems (NAF/EOS) aren't of major consequence, meaning alternative brands are a definite option.

Thanks in advance :)
 
I swapped from DSLR to GH1 last year. Best decision I made, I won;t use a DSLR again unless theres a major shift in the design of them.

For everyday use you will find no drawbacks over a DSLR and maybe even a few benefits. The Menu system of the Panasonics is nice and straightforward, if a little exhaustive. The older non touch models have very usful buttons which is what made them a hit with pros. The GH1 for example has a switch to shift between Single, burst, bracketed and self timed picture taking around the mode dial and on the other side another dial switches between focus modes. Simple, easy to use and no menu needed. (The G1 goes one better and has 2 dials on the left choosing metering mode I believe)

I would assume the required output will be JPG, which is where the fun begins. Olympus have a much better grasp of this, especially in the new EP3, Panasonic Jpegs look naff really, for some reason they're massively soft even when the shot really isn't. This probbaly won't bother your average user, and if you take the leap and shoot Raw with panasonic you're greeted (on GH1 and GH2 models anyway) with much better Dynamic range than any other m4/3 camera, excellent sharpness and good noise control. (Much better than the 3 position settings for in camera Jpeg)

The EVF is fun, it's like being a character in a computer game at first, but as a composition tool that it is designed to be it's great, you can overlay a nice grid, nothing at all, and make real world changes to white balance with it and best of all review your images and magnify them. You can even magnify the focus for manual fine tuning or full on MF.

Lenses are a potential drawback, the only fast glass is in prime form a present, though we are hoping that the 12-50 f2.8 Panasonic keeps promising will be announced next month. (That's 24-100 equivalent full frame). That said the 14-45mm Kit lens is excellent, it's slow at f3.5-5.6 but very sharp and has good resolution. CA is corrected in camera which means the lens is incredibly compact.

IMO it's how DSLRs should be - simple and straightforward yet deliver the goods. I fully admit I'd rather have fullframe, but it's certainly the next best thing.
 
daugirdas said:
Proper large optical viewfinder is important enough to immediately discount the EVILs.
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your camera does have the biggest viewfinder on an slr this side of medium format though

a 600d or equivalent cam does not have the same level of viewfinder loveliness.
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
IMO it's how DSLRs should be - simple and straightforward yet deliver the goods. I fully admit I'd rather have fullframe, but it's certainly the next best thing.
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Pentax?
The k5 is tiny (as small as a 600d, so a touch bigger than a g3)- but fully featured, and has tiny (but comparitively expensive) excellent prime lenses

I wish canon had an APS-C focussed selection of prime lenses,


There is always the x100 too, if only it was interchangeable lens...
 
Gone from D80 to a GF1.
Love the GF1 but i shoot both RAW & JPG. I quite often use the built in image settings like "Dynamic B&W". So i get the B&W jpg & the full colour RAW as a "just in case".
Went for the GF1 as size wise, it fits in my hands better. The newer GF2 & 3 have gotten smaller and as mentioned, gone touch screen for a lot of menu settings.
Ive now got an S5 Pro as i wanted to try a different style of photography.
GF1 still goes with me every where though.
 
In essence, it boils down to the level of the photographer.

Someone who just wants to make happy snaps will love the evil's. Anything more advanced, anyone who wants a full range if lenses or anyone who wants a decent viewfinder will find themselves wanting.

I also find them hard to get on with. Played with a friends nex5 recently and it was like holding a bar of soap, I felt as if it would fall out of my hands everytime I moved!!
 
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Alan Clogwyn said:
I swapped from DSLR to GH1 last year. Best decision I made, I won;t use a DSLR again unless theres a major shift in the design of them.

For everyday use you will find no drawbacks over a DSLR and maybe even a few benefits. The Menu system of the Panasonics is nice and straightforward, if a little exhaustive. The older non touch models have very usful buttons which is what made them a hit with pros. The GH1 for example has a switch to shift between Single, burst, bracketed and self timed picture taking around the mode dial and on the other side another dial switches between focus modes. Simple, easy to use and no menu needed. (The G1 goes one better and has 2 dials on the left choosing metering mode I believe)

I would assume the required output will be JPG, which is where the fun begins. Olympus have a much better grasp of this, especially in the new EP3, Panasonic Jpegs look naff really, for some reason they're massively soft even when the shot really isn't. This probbaly won't bother your average user, and if you take the leap and shoot Raw with panasonic you're greeted (on GH1 and GH2 models anyway) with much better Dynamic range than any other m4/3 camera, excellent sharpness and good noise control. (Much better than the 3 position settings for in camera Jpeg)

The EVF is fun, it's like being a character in a computer game at first, but as a composition tool that it is designed to be it's great, you can overlay a nice grid, nothing at all, and make real world changes to white balance with it and best of all review your images and magnify them. You can even magnify the focus for manual fine tuning or full on MF.

Lenses are a potential drawback, the only fast glass is in prime form a present, though we are hoping that the 12-50 f2.8 Panasonic keeps promising will be announced next month. (That's 24-100 equivalent full frame). That said the 14-45mm Kit lens is excellent, it's slow at f3.5-5.6 but very sharp and has good resolution. CA is corrected in camera which means the lens is incredibly compact.

IMO it's how DSLRs should be - simple and straightforward yet deliver the goods. I fully admit I'd rather have fullframe, but it's certainly the next best thing.
Click to expand...

How is an evil the next best thing to full frame??
 
I'm keeping a close eye on the EVILS. I came close to getting one last year, but I was put off by the poor viewfinder (although I ended up getting a D5000 which is pretty poor too) and slow AF. If they can fix those, they'll tempt a lot of people using lower-spec DSLRs who wouldn't mind something smaller and lighter.
The GH2 looks like a nice it of kit, but it's too expensive in my opinion. Maybe next year I'll take the plunge...
 
mrjames said:
your camera does have the biggest viewfinder on an slr this side of medium format though

a 600d or equivalent cam does not have the same level of viewfinder loveliness.
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That's why it makes sense to skip xxxD and look for the ones with bigger VF. D200 might be much better, and so will be 1Dmk2 - both very affordable by now. I know eyesight doesn't normally improve with age, so get the largest possible / affordable VF
 
I'm also a fan of the Panny G series.

I have a 5D and a 20D with a selection of fast primes but my reach for camera is a G1 with 25mm f0.95.

The viewfinder is large (I never use the rear screen and it stays folded into the body) and in low light because I have a fast lens I can actually see more than I could with the 5D and 85mm f1.4, plus I can see the shot I'll get, DoF, WB and all, and I get a real time histogram and can ETTR with confidence and without having to review the shot to double check. I have a 14-42mm and whilst it's rather pedestrian and unexciting to someone used to fast primes it is technically very competent and a good all rounder. I also have a 20mm f1.7 on my GF1 and it's a great combination and fits in my inside jacket pocket or a small bag.

Those who criticise these cameras baffle me as they usually come up with arguments that I find completely inaccurate, gross generalisations or third hand rumour whereas to me to try these cameras is to see the point of them.

Anyone wishing to criticise the image quality should take a look at the results that other people are getting and maybe browse the various Luminous Landscape articles and reviews. They really are cameras that can let a novice take snaps and allow the more practiced to exploit the features and advantages.

I don't know if a 25mm f0.95 would suite the OP's father but a GF or G with either a 20mm f1.7 or image stabilised 14-42mm just might.
 
Llamaman said:
I'm keeping a close eye on the EVILS. I came close to getting one last year, but I was put off by the poor viewfinder (although I ended up getting a D5000 which is pretty poor too) and slow AF. If they can fix those,
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They've fixed the focus to the point that it's faster than the vast majority of DSLR's.

The viewfinder comments baffle me... I find my G1 great. The only reason that the viewfinder gets noisey and slow is that you're using slow lenses, use a fast lens and the problem is gone.
 
daugirdas said:
That's why it makes sense to skip xxxD and look for the ones with bigger VF. D200 might be much better, and so will be 1Dmk2 - both very affordable by now. I know eyesight doesn't normally improve with age, so get the largest possible / affordable VF
Click to expand...

Yes but these things are big and heavy lumps and there are times when smaller lighter gear is what some need. Plus the older lumps haven't got the new tec that the MFT have.
 
woof woof said:
They've fixed the focus to the point that it's faster than the vast majority of DSLR's.
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I'm surprised by that statement. I'd like to try one to make my own judgement, but DPReview's recent review of the G3 doesn't tally:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg3/page9.asp

"Of course, the Achilles heel of any contrast-detection AF system is low light, poor subject contrast or a combination of the two. Overall, we found performance in these environments to be on par with that of entry-level DSLRs. As such, the G3 wouldn't be our first choice for shooting a sports event, but in daily outdoor use with the kit lens, we have found that it very rarely lets us down. "

"When set to AFC mode (continuous autofocus) the G3 employs its contrast-detection AF to track the subject. Based on the tracking performance of previous G-series models we were not expecting miracles here, and our experience of shooting has proven that our caution is justified.

We found the G3's AFC tracking to be most successful in well-lit scenes with subjects of strong contrast that move rather consistently. When panning the camera in order to keep the subject relatively close to the central area of the viewfinder/LCD screen, we routinely saw hit rates in the 40% range."
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
The EVF is fun, it's like being a character in a computer game at first, but as a composition tool that it is designed to be it's great, you can overlay a nice grid, nothing at all, and make real world changes to white balance with it and best of all review your images and magnify them. You can even magnify the focus for manual fine tuning or full on MF.
Click to expand...

I would just like to point out that some of these features are not EVIL only - many DSLRs have overlays selectable for their optical viewfinder, and reviewing images in the small viewfinder isn't especially enjoyable anyway. Live view + magnifying also replicates the latter - not strictly through the viewfinder, but it's not entirely absent either.
 
manualfocus-g said:
I'm surprised by that statement. I'd like to try one to make my own judgement, but DPReview's recent review of the G3 doesn't tally:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg3/page9.asp

"Of course, the Achilles heel of any contrast-detection AF system is low light, poor subject contrast or a combination of the two. Overall, we found performance in these environments to be on par with that of entry-level DSLRs. As such, the G3 wouldn't be our first choice for shooting a sports event, but in daily outdoor use with the kit lens, we have found that it very rarely lets us down. "

"When set to AFC mode (continuous autofocus) the G3 employs its contrast-detection AF to track the subject. Based on the tracking performance of previous G-series models we were not expecting miracles here, and our experience of shooting has proven that our caution is justified.

We found the G3's AFC tracking to be most successful in well-lit scenes with subjects of strong contrast that move rather consistently. When panning the camera in order to keep the subject relatively close to the central area of the viewfinder/LCD screen, we routinely saw hit rates in the 40% range."
Click to expand...

It's been reported that with specific lenses the autofocus performance of a couple of recent MFT models is the fastest of any interchangeable lens camera. However, the quote you found relates to focus tracking, a different thing to focus speed when focusing on a static or even slow moving subject. For all but the most demanding of situations I think that MFT focus performance will be more than adequate for most people. The area in which it may not be good enough for some is that of the example quote you found, sports in low light.

Google and you will no doubt find.

PS. A quick Google tells me that the G3 can focus in 0.1sec., which I think is pretty quick and whilst this is only possible with a fast focusing lens the same will be true for a DSLR.
 
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I recently bought a Sony a55, to replace the a350 that I was using as a backup body for my a850. Before upgrading I was fairly anti-EVF, having tried an a55 in a shop and having been immediately disappointed in comparison to the optical quality of my beloved a850 pentaprism OVF.

2 weeks later I have completely changed my view. Sure, the view presented by an EVF is not as "pretty" as that from a good OVF, but in every functional respect the EVF is as good or better. The amount of feedback you get from an EVF (ie. Exposure, WB, levelling, MF zoom, live histogram) makes such a difference that the loss of aesthetic quality is really a very very small price to pay. The a55 allows me to shoot in ways that I never could with an OVF.
 
Johnd2000 said:
The amount of feedback you get from an EVF (ie. Exposure, WB, levelling, MF zoom, live histogram) makes such a difference that the loss of aesthetic quality is really a very very small price to pay.
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I hope this will drive Canikon and the others to start beginning to innovate with the sorts of information they provide in the OVF, because I'm sure some of these could be replicated with enough R&D.
 
Johnd2000 said:
....The amount of feedback you get from an EVF (ie. Exposure, WB, levelling, MF zoom, live histogram) makes such a difference....
Click to expand...

Do you mean in terms of head-up-display info? Sound intriguing, not having had anything near a proper play with an EVIL myself :)


daugirdas said:
That's why it makes sense to skip xxxD and look for the ones with bigger VF. D200 might be much better, and so will be 1Dmk2 - both very affordable by now. I know eyesight doesn't normally improve with age, so get the largest possible / affordable VF
Click to expand...

His eyesight is pretty much 20/20 after laser surgery.

He loves the big hulking bodies like the D2x and 1D but I fear, for him anyway, he'd get a bit fed up with the overall size (or my Mum would as she'd end up with it in her handbag!!) :lol:

I think for the level of user he is I think lower-end of the market will probably be better in many respects (good amount of features/in-camera processing styles/small size/ability to use system lenses), plus it'll fit his budget better and allow for an extra lens.:thumbs:
 
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Tried one myself and found the AF slow and the Viewfinder wierd!! Really prefer the optical viewfinder myself.
 
woof woof said:
I'm also a fan of the Panny G series.

I have a 5D and a 20D with a selection of fast primes but my reach for camera is a G1 with 25mm f0.95.
Click to expand...

Likewise, though I'm using Canon FD glass on my G2.

The 5D stays at home most days. It produces better images if I'm pixel peeping, but I'm having more fun with the Panny.

If I want to use a really nice viewfinder, I'll take one of my FD film bodies with me too.
 
specialman said:
Do you mean in terms of head-up-display info? Sound intriguing, not having had anything near a proper play with an EVIL myself :)
Click to expand...

On the Sony SLTs, you have three main VF views, selected (cycled) by pressing the top part of the rear touch pad/wheel. The first gives you the traditional information (meter scale, aperture and SS). The second overlays a digital spirit level and the third places a live histogram in the corner of the image. In all views you are looking at a live view type image, so WB and exposure is fully WYSIWYG. If you are manually focussing, a double tap of another button gives you a zoomed image (initially at the centre of the frame, although it can be moved to wherever you want it) which remains in place until you press the shutter.

One technique it enables is using aperture priority in a very high dynamic range environment to set the exposure by simply sweeping across the scene (eg from the dark side to the lighter side) in either centre or centre-weighted meter mode. You see the exposure change as you sweep the camera across the scene, so you just hit the AEL button when it looks "right". It sounds like a little thing, but it's as natural as focussing and recomposing and you don't have to look at the meter scale at all. Can't do that with an OVF.

Having a "proper play" is important. It took me a few hours of wandering around with the cam before I started to appreciate how different the technology is and how it can be used. Based on 5 minutes in a shop I hated it. Now, I'm really looking forward to a FF SLT some time next year.
 
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