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eBikes (Open thread)
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TheBigYin
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well, as a e-bike rider, and as a cyclist from long times passed, honestly, there's no "magic solution" - a saddle that is perfectly comfortable for 70-80 miles on my road bike, brings me to tears in 30 miles on my cyclocross bike, and I doubt i'd get much past the end of my street with it fitted to the MTB. This is down to the difference in body positioning on the bike, and the different angle that the sit-bones come into contact with the saddle. Basically road > cross > mtb go from most horizontal to most vertical.
In my case i'm comfortable on a Fizik Arione on the roadbike, but it'd kill me on the other 2 bikes as it's much narrower and almost completely unpadded anywhere, with no real "give".
For the 'cross bike, it's a bit higher at the front end as the bars aren't "slammed" and also are a different profile - plus - on mixed roads, sustrans paths and bridleways you tend to ride on the tops of the bars much more. This basically moves my shoulders up and back maybe 2-3 inches, which in turn rotates my pelvis and means more of my sit bones in contact with the saddle - and to support that, I end up with a saddle with more "flare out" at the back - I think i'm running a old model Fizik antares on this bike - models probably changed by now, but it's the one that you're intended to sit "on but in one place", whereas the roadbike "Arione" is more of a "sit on but move fore and aft depending on if you're climbing or descending". It's quite similar, to the "Charge Spoon" saddle as a budget version.
Then we come to the e-Mtb - which, if I'm honest, really doesn't get used as a mountain bike, slammed down bike park trails and red/black runs, then use the e-bike motor as a winch to get to the top again - no, honestly, its used on same paths, bridleways, towpaths and around the woods that the 'cross bike is - only, it's used when the paths are boggier, and muddier, and claggier. But, it's again shorter than the 'cross bike, has flat bars instead of drops, that are wider, and all that makes it very much "sit up and beg" compared to the drop bar bikes - and as such, i'm way more comfortable on something that actually has a small degree of padding. I think at the moment I've got a ancient (as in probably pushing 20 years old) WTB saddle on there - it's about 1cm shorter and 1.5com wider than the Antares / Spoon and it's actually got a tiny amount of padding all-round.
BUT - here's the thing. I'm used to saddles with little or no padding. I can't get on with gel saddles, or squidgy ones, or ones with cutouts under your nuts (they invariably cause chafage, or just snap at the middle point of the saddle as i'm a fat sod). And, the saddles I choose aren't a static thing... I've a box with about 20 saddles in it, various makes and models - because about 16 years ago, I went from weighing nearly 30 stone, down to 17st. and as I lost weight, the saddle that suited me changed. Each saddle has a note stuffed under the frame rails, detailing what it was used for, what weight I was, and when It went "inappropriate" and was pensioned off. I've saddles from Fizik, Selle Italia, Selle Royale, Specialized, WTB, and others - I've none in the box from Brooks because - well - I kind of fell out of love with them in my early 20's when my Brooks Team Pro (the skinny one with the massive copper rivets) got soaked during a 12 hour TT and was like a hammock by the end of the ride. Was basically un-salvageable apart from sending back to brooks for a new leather topping, which after postage was about 20p less than buying a new one. But I digress.
What I'm trying to say is that i've been riding bikes regularly from the age of 12-13, seriously from 16 till maybe 30, and then intermittently for the next 30+ years. That half century has been a un-ending and unrequited search for the perfect saddle. and for My Arse, there isn't one. Some people are capable of riding on anything - others couldn't get comfortable on a saddle that was 3d printed from a scan of their nether regions, then heat moulded to their form in-situ while riding.
The Biggest mistake people make with saddles is thinking "it'll break in to my backside" if it's a Brooks leather saddle - or "my backside will get used to it" if its any other make or model.
IT'S NOT YOUR BACKSIDE THAT GETS USED TO IT. IT'S THAT YOU'VE RIDDEN ENOUGH THAT YOUR LEGS ARE STRONGER THAN THEY WERE, AND ARE BEARING THE WEIGHT THAT ORIGINALLY WAS BEING PUT THROUGH YOUR "CONTACT POINTS" - it's the same reason your shoulders and hands ache when you return to riding the bike - you're using bits that aren't normally weight bearing items to help support your body weight.
There's lots of theories abound - I personally tend to subscribe to the "get your sit-bones measured" then take advice on what saddle is the right width for the bones, bearing in mind also the nature of how you're body is positioned on the bike.
In my case i'm comfortable on a Fizik Arione on the roadbike, but it'd kill me on the other 2 bikes as it's much narrower and almost completely unpadded anywhere, with no real "give".
For the 'cross bike, it's a bit higher at the front end as the bars aren't "slammed" and also are a different profile - plus - on mixed roads, sustrans paths and bridleways you tend to ride on the tops of the bars much more. This basically moves my shoulders up and back maybe 2-3 inches, which in turn rotates my pelvis and means more of my sit bones in contact with the saddle - and to support that, I end up with a saddle with more "flare out" at the back - I think i'm running a old model Fizik antares on this bike - models probably changed by now, but it's the one that you're intended to sit "on but in one place", whereas the roadbike "Arione" is more of a "sit on but move fore and aft depending on if you're climbing or descending". It's quite similar, to the "Charge Spoon" saddle as a budget version.
Then we come to the e-Mtb - which, if I'm honest, really doesn't get used as a mountain bike, slammed down bike park trails and red/black runs, then use the e-bike motor as a winch to get to the top again - no, honestly, its used on same paths, bridleways, towpaths and around the woods that the 'cross bike is - only, it's used when the paths are boggier, and muddier, and claggier. But, it's again shorter than the 'cross bike, has flat bars instead of drops, that are wider, and all that makes it very much "sit up and beg" compared to the drop bar bikes - and as such, i'm way more comfortable on something that actually has a small degree of padding. I think at the moment I've got a ancient (as in probably pushing 20 years old) WTB saddle on there - it's about 1cm shorter and 1.5com wider than the Antares / Spoon and it's actually got a tiny amount of padding all-round.
BUT - here's the thing. I'm used to saddles with little or no padding. I can't get on with gel saddles, or squidgy ones, or ones with cutouts under your nuts (they invariably cause chafage, or just snap at the middle point of the saddle as i'm a fat sod). And, the saddles I choose aren't a static thing... I've a box with about 20 saddles in it, various makes and models - because about 16 years ago, I went from weighing nearly 30 stone, down to 17st. and as I lost weight, the saddle that suited me changed. Each saddle has a note stuffed under the frame rails, detailing what it was used for, what weight I was, and when It went "inappropriate" and was pensioned off. I've saddles from Fizik, Selle Italia, Selle Royale, Specialized, WTB, and others - I've none in the box from Brooks because - well - I kind of fell out of love with them in my early 20's when my Brooks Team Pro (the skinny one with the massive copper rivets) got soaked during a 12 hour TT and was like a hammock by the end of the ride. Was basically un-salvageable apart from sending back to brooks for a new leather topping, which after postage was about 20p less than buying a new one. But I digress.
What I'm trying to say is that i've been riding bikes regularly from the age of 12-13, seriously from 16 till maybe 30, and then intermittently for the next 30+ years. That half century has been a un-ending and unrequited search for the perfect saddle. and for My Arse, there isn't one. Some people are capable of riding on anything - others couldn't get comfortable on a saddle that was 3d printed from a scan of their nether regions, then heat moulded to their form in-situ while riding.
The Biggest mistake people make with saddles is thinking "it'll break in to my backside" if it's a Brooks leather saddle - or "my backside will get used to it" if its any other make or model.
IT'S NOT YOUR BACKSIDE THAT GETS USED TO IT. IT'S THAT YOU'VE RIDDEN ENOUGH THAT YOUR LEGS ARE STRONGER THAN THEY WERE, AND ARE BEARING THE WEIGHT THAT ORIGINALLY WAS BEING PUT THROUGH YOUR "CONTACT POINTS" - it's the same reason your shoulders and hands ache when you return to riding the bike - you're using bits that aren't normally weight bearing items to help support your body weight.
There's lots of theories abound - I personally tend to subscribe to the "get your sit-bones measured" then take advice on what saddle is the right width for the bones, bearing in mind also the nature of how you're body is positioned on the bike.
TheBigYin
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one thing that is e-bike specific, a bit at least, is that because you're not pushing as hard on the pedals as you would on a "acoustic" bike for a given speed, and given that predominately the MTB or Hybrid - IE flat bar - form factor of lots of e-bikes, a slightly wider at the rear model of saddle may be appropriate, possibly with gel padding - but unless you're really only riding the bike 2-3 miles to the shops and back, and always in "civvies" rather than sports clothing (not saying full-lycra-tosser outfits here - but sort of more form-fitting than a pair of combat trousers kind of thing) stay well clear of the "Gel Sofa's"
TheBigYin
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I've got an update for this thread as well incidentally...
decided to drop a few quid on one of my bikes and i've done a "boost bikes" upgrade on my cyclocross bike.
I was attracted to it because, well - basically, it's completely reversible, took about a hour and a half to fit first time (mostly it has to be said, getting the spacing right for my ancient 10 speed cassette) - half hour to revert to "acoustic" version if I want, or re-fit now i've got a pair of matching alignment rear wheels...
its road legal - 250w continuous , 45nm of torque - cuts out at 25kph/15.5mph - no throttle or anything like that. Basically its just a heavy rear wheel with a motor, and what looks like a slightly oversized water bottle as a battery - from 20 yards on my Cannondale CAADX in black, you can't tell it's an e-bike.
In use, it's just what I wanted to be honest - you don't FEEL like you're on a e-bike - there's no big "push" unless you hit the panic boost button and engage burst mode for that bit of oomph to get over the last 10 yards of the hill for example - honestly, on the flat it just feels like you've got "good legs" or a tailwind that day, and on hills, well, it feels like you're 10 years younger and maybe 3 stone lighter.
Battery is probably the "weak point" - in that it's size kind of restricts potential capacity - it's nominal 36 volts, 6Ah, 216Wh - but... that was enough for me to go out on the bike and do around 55km in under 3 hours (less, if you only include "travelling time") and kept up on a "social ride" with a couple of mates that are considerably younger and fitter than I am. And, I still had probably 20km or so in reserve, as I've learned subsequently - basically, this was actually my 4th ride on the bike after I'd done the conversion, and the first 2 rides didn't amount to 5km between the two! I reckon that the battery had maybe a "safe" upper limit before charging of 75km back then - that was in april this year though - and - i'm happy to say, I've actually lost 2 stone since then, so hopefully it'll be creeping closer to the magic 50 mile ride status. I'm sure people that weigh a more typical 12st or so would be getting at least 50-60 miles out of one.
All told, for around £650 if you've an appropriate bike to fit it to* - it's a cracker.
Apologies for lack of photo's - honestly, I've just not taken any of the bike since it's conversion - not because of any particular reason, just that if I've got the bike out, it's been to ride it! Currently p***ing down outside, or I'd have wheeled it out and taken a phone snap of it!
* appropriate - well - check the boost website for the techy bits, but IMO i'd say I'd prefer to fit it to a Steel, Ti or Ally framed bike personally - the batterys a bit of a "lump" to be swinging from some bonded in rivnuts in a string and glue frame. Again, personally, I'd say it's ideal for a medium or large road frame, pref with fittings for 2 bottle cages, so you can still have a bottle cage on the bike alongside the battery. Can only vouch for the 700c wheeled version - but the wheel was really well built - tensioned nicely and evenly (yes, I do have a tensiometer, as I used to build wheels years ago...) and was straight and true right out of the box - this was the factory stock build - so was a black Ryde disk specific wheel with no stickers etc, built up with quite heavy gauge sapim spokes and brass nipples. If you're buying, i'd suggest getting the cassette pre-fitted, that way it'll be fitted with the appropriate spacers for your cassette - I tried cheaping out, and ended up spending a while rummaging around in spares boxes until I'd got the right spacers. Wheel was ok on 700c 25mm tyres, but again, as a big lad, and as the back wheel is a bit of a pain to remove/refit (the wiring to the wheel has to be in "jsut the right place" for refit, which would I think be a PITA in the rain after a puncture...) I've fitted 35mm Gatorskins front and back for road use, and it seems very happy on them. All things considered, it's brill - just - don't waste your money on the head unit/wireless display - it's unremittingly s***e.
decided to drop a few quid on one of my bikes and i've done a "boost bikes" upgrade on my cyclocross bike.
I was attracted to it because, well - basically, it's completely reversible, took about a hour and a half to fit first time (mostly it has to be said, getting the spacing right for my ancient 10 speed cassette) - half hour to revert to "acoustic" version if I want, or re-fit now i've got a pair of matching alignment rear wheels...
its road legal - 250w continuous , 45nm of torque - cuts out at 25kph/15.5mph - no throttle or anything like that. Basically its just a heavy rear wheel with a motor, and what looks like a slightly oversized water bottle as a battery - from 20 yards on my Cannondale CAADX in black, you can't tell it's an e-bike.
In use, it's just what I wanted to be honest - you don't FEEL like you're on a e-bike - there's no big "push" unless you hit the panic boost button and engage burst mode for that bit of oomph to get over the last 10 yards of the hill for example - honestly, on the flat it just feels like you've got "good legs" or a tailwind that day, and on hills, well, it feels like you're 10 years younger and maybe 3 stone lighter.
Battery is probably the "weak point" - in that it's size kind of restricts potential capacity - it's nominal 36 volts, 6Ah, 216Wh - but... that was enough for me to go out on the bike and do around 55km in under 3 hours (less, if you only include "travelling time") and kept up on a "social ride" with a couple of mates that are considerably younger and fitter than I am. And, I still had probably 20km or so in reserve, as I've learned subsequently - basically, this was actually my 4th ride on the bike after I'd done the conversion, and the first 2 rides didn't amount to 5km between the two! I reckon that the battery had maybe a "safe" upper limit before charging of 75km back then - that was in april this year though - and - i'm happy to say, I've actually lost 2 stone since then, so hopefully it'll be creeping closer to the magic 50 mile ride status. I'm sure people that weigh a more typical 12st or so would be getting at least 50-60 miles out of one.
All told, for around £650 if you've an appropriate bike to fit it to* - it's a cracker.
Apologies for lack of photo's - honestly, I've just not taken any of the bike since it's conversion - not because of any particular reason, just that if I've got the bike out, it's been to ride it! Currently p***ing down outside, or I'd have wheeled it out and taken a phone snap of it!
* appropriate - well - check the boost website for the techy bits, but IMO i'd say I'd prefer to fit it to a Steel, Ti or Ally framed bike personally - the batterys a bit of a "lump" to be swinging from some bonded in rivnuts in a string and glue frame. Again, personally, I'd say it's ideal for a medium or large road frame, pref with fittings for 2 bottle cages, so you can still have a bottle cage on the bike alongside the battery. Can only vouch for the 700c wheeled version - but the wheel was really well built - tensioned nicely and evenly (yes, I do have a tensiometer, as I used to build wheels years ago...) and was straight and true right out of the box - this was the factory stock build - so was a black Ryde disk specific wheel with no stickers etc, built up with quite heavy gauge sapim spokes and brass nipples. If you're buying, i'd suggest getting the cassette pre-fitted, that way it'll be fitted with the appropriate spacers for your cassette - I tried cheaping out, and ended up spending a while rummaging around in spares boxes until I'd got the right spacers. Wheel was ok on 700c 25mm tyres, but again, as a big lad, and as the back wheel is a bit of a pain to remove/refit (the wiring to the wheel has to be in "jsut the right place" for refit, which would I think be a PITA in the rain after a puncture...) I've fitted 35mm Gatorskins front and back for road use, and it seems very happy on them. All things considered, it's brill - just - don't waste your money on the head unit/wireless display - it's unremittingly s***e.
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I've been so guilty of this! Just riding to work or the shops, short blast trips - I need to get back on to some off-road! Longer trips, no real excuse now with the eMtb, I've been enjoying coasting up hills that used to wreck me fast! so why not venture further!? I used to cycle more a few year back on my standard manual bike and it was useful for my photography! The further afield you go the more interesting things you will come across. I'm talking myself back into it! Hopefully I take up on it!
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The bike I bought only has a 36v motor, 15ah, but claims to have 95nm torque, it is a mid drive
I'm not sure what most of that means, but I do know it's got zero problem coasting up steep enough hills [for me] at full speed [also legal, 15.5mph though I often break that even uphill, can reak 18mph after the motor stops assist]
Is torque the main factor in hill climbing?
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This article about the poor lads death is quite misleading.
www.bbc.co.uk
If it was an 'eBike' they are quite legal and safe to ride. I suspect and uneducated reporter has taken what has been said with pinch of salt, and got it wrong.
Also, if the two boys were on one bicycle that in itself is dangerous, not the eBike.
Boy, 14, dies after car and e-bike crash in Chesterfield
Officers say no arrests have been made, and the driver of a Kia is being treated as a witness.
www.bbc.co.uk
If it was an 'eBike' they are quite legal and safe to ride. I suspect and uneducated reporter has taken what has been said with pinch of salt, and got it wrong.
Also, if the two boys were on one bicycle that in itself is dangerous, not the eBike.
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Extremely unfortunate but extremely misleading article! E-bikes are not 'banned from the roads' - Most are perfectly legal, restricted to 25kmph and 250w motors. I have one, I could match the speed of it on my standard mountain bike [just takes more effort] what my e-bike does for me is 'flatten the terrain' - it's not about speed, just makes hills so much easier to tackle. I can go up hill the same speed as I can run on flat terrain. Cyclist on racing bikes will zoom passed me with ease.
2 teens from my estate were killed in a similar fashion back in the 90's, they were hit by a lorry, both died instantly. They were on an old crock , thrown together mountain bike. Over the years I've heard about more cyclist deaths, long before e-bikes were a thing. Just like with cars, the vehicle isn't dangerous, the driver that causes the accident is.
2 teens from my estate were killed in a similar fashion back in the 90's, they were hit by a lorry, both died instantly. They were on an old crock , thrown together mountain bike. Over the years I've heard about more cyclist deaths, long before e-bikes were a thing. Just like with cars, the vehicle isn't dangerous, the driver that causes the accident is.
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Depends very much on the e-bike. It's a label applied to everything from a fully legal, pedal assist only, limited power and speed type up to a full blown sur-ron type electric motorcycle, which are far from legal in almost every way! LOTS of the local "cycle" delivery service people use the latter type - I regularly get passed by them in 20, 30 and even 40 limits. Local plod set up occasional checks but during the day rather than in the evenings when there are many more of them around.
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I'm looking at the Swytch add-on option for my hybrid for later this year. Front wheel drive as the back is a hub and belt arrangement.
I'm not a big cycling fan but my wife enjoys it so it would be a way for em to accompany her without all the effort of constant peddling. A repaired torn meniscus in my left knee and one that will remain torn in my right means I am limited in miles.
I'm not a big cycling fan but my wife enjoys it so it would be a way for em to accompany her without all the effort of constant peddling. A repaired torn meniscus in my left knee and one that will remain torn in my right means I am limited in miles.
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I collected my daughter from central Reading a few months ago early evening. I was amazed at the no of e-bikes weaving in and out of the traffic, most of which must have been above the 25 kpmh limit, and most were not peddling. My wife was shunted from behind at temporary traffic lights the same evening and the police attended as they happened to be passing. I spoke to one of the officers about illegal e-bikes who said it was a big problem but there was little they could do to stop it.
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One of the legal criteria I forgot to mention earlier, is no throttle. It's a giveaway when you see someone whizzing along without peddling. Mine is 100% legit, I have to peddle to keep the motor going, it's just an assist. But of course I see the 'youg fellas' on their souped up, completely unrestricted models that look more akin to a motor-bike/scrambler. They are the ones giving "e-bikes" the bad press. Pulling wheelies through estates, never using lights when dark, clearly unrestricted speeds, carrying passengers etc
I've seen the illegal types much more so in cities though. We spent a lot of time in Dublin for example, during my daughter's illness. And you're right, the courriers/delivery guys there were well outside of legal limitations on their bikes. But in smaller towns, at least where I am, it's rare to see anything like those. Yes I have seen teens with ott bikes, and I have thought to myself 'that'll just end in disaster' - but this overall label 'e-bikes' isn't doing anyone any good. E-bikes can be amazing in the right hands.
And again, you could replace "e-bike" with just "mountain bike" in many of those over blown stories
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Very much so, yes. That said, "Factory" mid-motor e-bikes are generally better than wheel-motors because they tend to be "torque sensing" - in that the power output of the motor is regulated by the amount of "oomph" you're putting in via the pedals - efffectively, the harder you push on the pedals, the harder the motor spins up. Most of the "wheel motors" are are cadence sensing - which means to keep the power on, you need to keep the pedals turning at a reasonable speed - and - for less fit riders, and especially for people that aren't formerly keen cyclists used to "spinning" a gear up a hill, something that lets you "stand up and grunt on the pedals" putting a crapton of torque into the cranks, and getting it magnified by the motor is going to be a more satisfying / satisfactory outcome.
I'm thinking that in another year or so, I may well consider a torque sensing mid-motor for either my current MTB - or, possibly if I source a slightly more up to date 29'er frame suitable for conversion - and then try and "franken" the current MTB into some sort of touring setup with a rigid fork and road tyres....
for now though, I'm still enjoying riding the old E-Inbred...
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I think I got lucky on my first emtb choice then! It's a mid motor with apparently 90Nm torque - all I know is even on the steepest hills [at least in my town] it's a breeze. Only negative I can find on this bike is the battery doesn't last very long, I'm only doing work/town runs and I need to charge it every few days [20km or so]
TheBigYin
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that DOES sound quite low capacity, as I say, mine drags my (just) sub 140kg's along for a good 65-70km - this ride on saturday for example - https://www.strava.com/activities/17975374237 - took 65% out of the battery, and it was stupidly windy for the whole ride. Average of 21.8kph for just over 2.3 hours of moving time. And with best part of 500m of ascent/descent in there, while it's not mountainous, it's far from being flat around here... So - not continually "over the cutoff" and not using juice by any means.
And that was on the Cannondale Cross bike, with the Boost conversion - so 36v battery (7ah, 252Wh) and 45nm of torque. Okay, by the time it hits 35% capacity, the system is kind of "running on fumes" and there's no way it'll kick into the higher assist modes, but at the end of the day, it's a little less than 4kg conversion kit weight, over the replaced components on the bike (or just over 3kg, if you figure that you can't actually carry 2x750ml bottles anymore, as one of the bottle cages has the battery in...) - so the bikes maybe 14kg all up in road trim...
I'll be honest, at my current weight, I really do wish that they'd allow 350w motors rather than 250w, but keep the speed restrictions - that way, the motor would actually have enough "grunt" to keep my speed going on more extended hills - it's a cadence sensing system on this bike, and for longer hills, I rapidly find myself in bottom gear, twiddling along at just a little over walking speed and once at that speed, there's not enough "oomph" in the motor to allow me to speed up - only way of getting any quicker is to push myself a little harder than my cardiologist would be happy with... So, sit in and spin is the order of the day. 50/34 Crankset and a 11-28 cassette doesn't help of course - I may just nick the 11/32 and the long cage ultegra rear mech from my "best bike" and give that a try, next time I'm in need of a replacement chain...
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Perhaps I've been over charging? on full it hits 40v and I tend to charge soon as it get to 36. The bike isn't light, it's not a fat wheel monster either but it is 24kg, and I'm no light weight rider. It's not mad hilly terrain here but across town I will meet a few hills daily.
TheBigYin
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lithium cells have a "safe" range from 4.2v down to 2.8v. 36v packs are usually 10 18650's in series, then "parallelled" up to get the capacity desired... so, my Boost is likely a 10s2p pack... that's actually a REALLY small battery to be honest - it has to be, because it pretty much fits in a "Fat Waterbottle" honestly, it pretty much passes for a 1L water bottle, albeit nearer double the weight. But for example, my MTB runs a 10s4p setup which has way more headroom - then again, ridden offroad or on gravel, and weighing in at a little of 21kg without any bags or other impedimenta it needs it - because it seldom gets out of "full boost mode"
When you charge the battery, it actually charges to somewhere nearer 40v - usually the BMS will cut off as soon as any cell in the pack hits 4.2v individually - but at the start of your ride the battery is likely to be a nominal 40v. With my "boost" battery, the BMS in the battery pack basically says "enough, i'm done" and goes switches itself off at 28v - obviously different marques will have different parameters setup, but I would say you could well be charging when the battery's at around 60-70% full...
When you charge the battery, it actually charges to somewhere nearer 40v - usually the BMS will cut off as soon as any cell in the pack hits 4.2v individually - but at the start of your ride the battery is likely to be a nominal 40v. With my "boost" battery, the BMS in the battery pack basically says "enough, i'm done" and goes switches itself off at 28v - obviously different marques will have different parameters setup, but I would say you could well be charging when the battery's at around 60-70% full...
