England To Have Its Own National Anthem

BillN_33 said:
eye contact has always been non verbal communication, in humans and in animals
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But also the opposite can apply just as well ;)
 
Cobra said:
But also the opposite can apply just as well ;)
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that's what I said "either way"

if you notice during the Haka they "enlarge" their eyes ......

as you know the less dominant animal will break eye contact
 
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Rich_Ellis said:
I have a feeling this is going to be a tricky discussion. Professional sport is about confidence, passion, belief in your abilities, your team mates as well as skill etc. Rugby is brutal. Taking part in the Haka helps to boost the things needed to compete at the highest level. A 1% lift in any of those areas will make a massive difference in a game of the intensity a top international match contains. Personal motivation and a boost of said areas to the participants of the Haka. NOT the opponents necessarily, although a very slight lift in nervousness of the opponents could also have a beneficial effect to the All Blacks. Its ancestral roots were in intimidation and firing up of the warriors ready to go into battle.
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I completely see your point, however I believe that a person playing at such a high level already possesses those things, as lacking them would probably mean not reaching that level in the first place.
I also suspect a little "firing up" is carried out pregame in the dressing rooms. :)

If the haka gees up the NZ players, good for them.
I don't believe it should be banned though.
Opponents are free to find their own motivation.

In addition, many all black players have no Maori heritage....for them I'm sure that whilst it's a matter of great pride....it's in Sports way rather than an indigenous culture way.
Jmo of course.
 
BillN_33 said:
eye contact has always been non verbal communication, in humans and in animals

The eyes are powerful communicators

if during the Haka this does occur it can give a meaningful message ............. either way
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My favourite response to it was this by the Irish in 1989:
View: https://youtu.be/weUHwCjeD7s
but it was criticised and the IRB banned it as disrespectful. Why they (the All Blacks) are allowed to (in other nation's eyes) be disrespectful to us by performing a war dance at us is, and has been for decades, the subject of much hot debate!
 
BillN_33 said:
as you know the less dominant animal will break eye contact
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But also a dominant animal will also refuse eye contact as a punishment,
I assume that's why the opposing team turn their backs.
( now banned according an earlier comment)
 
viv1969 said:
I completely see your point, however I believe that a person playing at such a high level already possesses those things, as lacking them would probably mean not reaching that level in the first place.
I also suspect a little "firing up" is carried out pregame in the dressing rooms. :)

If the haka gees up the NZ players, good for them.
I don't believe it should be banned though.
Opponents are free to find their own motivation.

In addition, many all black players have no Maori heritage....for them I'm sure that whilst it's a matter of great pride....it's in Sports way rather than an indigenous culture way.
Jmo of course.
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And there is the nub - they aren't allowed to 'find their own motivation' in a similar way. 'Firing up' IS performed in the dressing rooms, there's talk of head butting walls etc but the Haka is a collective thing. I think that if you don't understand the fact that this is highly likely to give them a competitive edge in the vital early minutes of a game, then it's going to be impossible to explain the details required to convince you. Just watch any interview with any All Black about the Haka. Very few will say it doesn't or didn't help them.

You are quite correct in assuming not all rugby playing All Blacks are Maori's, however most (if not all), All Blacks have been brought up with the culture of the Haka and fully understand the spiritual and ancestral importance of the tradition. They learn it from a very early age. We think it looks odd and a bit weird and funny but for an All Black, it is no laughing matter, quite the opposite, it has meaning, relevance and purpose.
 
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Rich_Ellis said:
And there is the nub - they aren't allowed to 'find their own motivation' in a similar way. 'Firing up' IS performed in the dressing rooms, there's talk of head butting walls etc but the Haka is a collective thing. I think that if you don't understand the fact that this is highly likely to give them a competitive edge in the vital early minutes of a game, then it's going to be impossible to explain the details required to convince you. Just watch any interview with any All Black about the Haka. Very few will say it doesn't or didn't help them.

You are quite correct in assuming not all rugby playing All Blacks are Maori's, however most (if not all), All Blacks have been brought up with the culture of the Haka and fully understand the spiritual and ancestral importance of the tradition. They learn it from a very early age. We think it looks odd and a bit weird and funny but for an All Black, it is no laughing matter, quite the opposite, it has meaning, relevance and purpose.
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As I said in my earlier post, I'm not disagreeing with you per se, so there's no need to attempt to "convince", just offering a differing opinion.
Bottom line I don't believe the Haka should be banned.
 
viv1969 said:
As I said in my earlier post, I'm not disagreeing with you per se, so there's no need to attempt to "convince", just offering a differing opinion.
Bottom line I don't believe the Haka should be banned.
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Haha, you're in good company there, most importantly, nor do the IRB so it'll stay whatever I or anyone else thinks!
 
I would vote for any new song/tune for the National Anthem as long as it didn’t include ANY reference to that mystical figure called god. As a non-believer I could never support an anthem with any reference to something that does not exist.


Ian
 
Rich_Ellis said:
I find it quite interesting really.
As a kid watching the 4 and 5 nations I always thought it odd that Wales and Scotland had their own anthems for their national teams and England didn't. If you just go back over the years and see the passion that the other home nations sing their anthems with and then compare it to England's rendition then there is no doubt as to the emotion that this simple pre-match routine creates for pretty much everyone other than England. I've kinda always been a bit jealous tbh and wished I could watch my team (England) get the same sense of pride and duty from our anthem but it has rarely happened. (maybe the 2003 Rugby World Cup??)

The question is why don't we get the same pride and emotional burst that other teams do? Is it merely the song/music and it's slow pace and hollow meaningless hard to identify with words? Or is it the fact its England and we have less pride and passion for playing for our country?

Whichever the reason is, even if it's only for the rugby, I'm in favour of trying another more 'English' song just to see if we can get anywhere near the heights the Welsh, Irish and Scots seem to with theirs. (Has anyone been to Cardiff and witnessed them singing their anthem? It is pretty awe inspiring) Does it give other nations a competitive advantage? My view is that overall, generally yes it does, a bit. Yes a team can get over hyped and emotional etc and probably have done in the past, affecting their overall early minutes performance, but generally, anyone who has played team sport to a reasonably competitive level will understand that motivation, pride and collective spirit counts for a lot in performance.

I would personally ban the Haka as it gives the All Blacks an advantage, its aggressive, confrontational, a war dance and gives a public display of team unity and togetherness that definitely is intended to intimidate and hype. Any attempts made to nullify this (turning of backs, linking of arms and slowly fronting up moving into the Kiwi's faces) has been deemed disrespectful and banned! One look at the AB's performing it should negate anyone's belief that it makes no difference....

So, there ya have it, I'm sorta jealous of other nations pride in their anthem and playing for their country and anything that can possibly change that meaning England might get a small amount of what the other Home Nations have has to be a good thing in my book! Sod politics, I just want our national teams to do better! Clutching at straws? Yeah, I know....
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This is how a team should respond to the Haka
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=weUHwCjeD7s
 
Oops that's what happens when you post without reading the whole thread :eek:
But the all blacks went on to hammer us anyway.
 
Rich_Ellis said:
My favourite response to it was this by the Irish in 1989:
View: https://youtu.be/weUHwCjeD7s
but it was criticised and the IRB banned it as disrespectful. Why they (the All Blacks) are allowed to (in other nation's eyes) be disrespectful to us by performing a war dance at us is, and has been for decades, the subject of much hot debate!
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That was a cracking moment! The 'stand off' in Cardiff was a another great Haka moment, quite a headache for the referee! (and we lost as well!)

 
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