EV/PHEV/Hybrid?

[Nod]

For pretty much purely town use (about 1.5 miles to town down a fairly steep hill) and the supermarket run (about 2 miles, undulating, with about 1/2 a mile of the steep hill involved). Might get the occasional trip up the valley - about 20 miles each way with the steep hill at this end.
To replace an A Class but we'll be keeping the nice IC cars for longer journeys and fun!
Budget? As little as possible but as much as necessary. Seen an Auris Hybrid for ~ £7000 and a Leaf EV for £10000.

 

[srichards]

Leafs don't have battery thermal management. That's their biggest failing really. Both will do the job but the Leaf will allow you to pre warm and defrost the car which is very nice in winter.

In a few years the leaf might struggle with the valleys trip in winter. The 24 kWh ones are a bit short on range. If there's somewhere to charge at the destination then it won't be an issue.

 

[Nod]

The Auris and Leaf are purely listed to give an idea as to what's currently available locally and aren't the only options. TBH, we'd almost certainly use one of the IC cars for the valley trips but might take an option if it would work!

 

[srichards]

Make sure any leaf is battery owned as there are a few flex ones floating about. An EV is definitely a good idea for such short journeys.

If you want to lease then the Kia Soul EV is still £200 pcm. It's an absolute bargain. That won't have an issue with the valley trip either.

 

[Mr Bump]

Sell them all and get a nice hybrid.

 

[Steep]

My next car will most likely be a hybrid. I love my Diesel Kia Soul and would probably go for the hybrid Kia Niro though it will be a couple of years at least so options are open. The Niro fills my needs I think, electric for the short shopping trips (it'll do 36 miles on electric only) and to help out on longer runs with economy. A full electric doesn't have the range for my needs and even if a gazillion charging points appear I don't fancy having to stop at one for 20-30mins every 120 miles or so.

 

[srichards]

My next car will most likely be a hybrid. I love my Diesel Kia Soul and would probably go for the hybrid Kia Niro though it will be a couple of years at least so options are open. The Niro fills my needs I think, electric for the short shopping trips (it'll do 36 miles on electric only) and to help out on longer runs with economy. A full electric doesn't have the range for my needs and even if a gazillion charging points appear I don't fancy having to stop at one for 20-30mins every 120 miles or so.

New Kia Niro all electric due next year will do 200+ miles on electric. The Hyundai Kona is also due to be a near 300 mile real electric range SUV so they will be around soon enough. The Soul is also due to get the 64kWh battery in it so you can keep the same size car and have it all electric.

 

[Nod]

Sell them all and get a nice hybrid.

Like the Auris? Which needs to start its IC engine and run it for 5 minutes before you can switch to electric power? That gets us down to town (bar the shouting) and just means it'll be lugging the weight of the battery around most of the time. Walking is sometimes an option but there's often a load of stuff that needs taking down/bringing up. Busses are... sporadic and expensive - it's cheaper to drive down and park up for an hour than a single fare and that's taking fuel into account.

 

[Steep]

New Kia Niro all electric due next year will do 200+ miles on electric. The Hyundai Kona is also due to be a near 300 mile real electric range SUV so they will be around soon enough. The Soul is also due to get the 64kWh battery in it so you can keep the same size car and have it all electric.

Yep as I said, options are open, in the couple of years to go before I pull the trigger on a new car everything can change. I want one with solar panels on the roof to help charging.

 

[Nod]

Not in any huge rush to make the change (even if I think the mini Merc is a PoS! - it's Mrs Nod's practical little car) and I suppose things are evolving apace. The Tesla Model 3 might even be available by the time we need to make the change!

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Make sure any leaf is battery owned as there are a few flex ones floating about. An EV is definitely a good idea for such short journeys.

If you want to lease then the Kia Soul EV is still £200 pcm. It's an absolute bargain. That won't have an issue with the valley trip either.

Is that including vat and upfront costs? If so, it really is cheap!

 

[srichards]

Is that including vat and upfront costs? If so, it really is cheap!

It's on a 6+ so it's £1200 plus £200 pcm for usually 24 or 36 months. 8000 Miles PA. Includes VAT. That price is held until March but there is several months lead time on delivery now.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

just did a quick calc, for me to look at saving money on my current car i need to get a lease for around a 100 per month....think that may be some way off yet!

 

[JonathanRyan]

For that use case, I wouldn't buy an EV or a hybrid.

In fact, there aren't many of these non traditionally powered cars that make financial sense ATM.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/toyota-auris-petrol-diesel-or-hybrid

 

[Nod]

That article only relates to the Auris as far as I can see and I agree - that doesn't really make sense from either a financial or ecological PoV. While an EV probably doesn't (yet) make sense from a financial PoV, reducing the in-town emissions does make sense from an ecological PoV. Of course, Mrs Nod's "real" car makes even less sense from either PoV but it's beautiful and fun so sod it - it's only money! (And her money at that!!!)

 

[JonathanRyan]

That article only relates to the Auris as far as I can see and I agree - that doesn't really make sense from either a financial or ecological PoV. While an EV probably doesn't (yet) make sense from a financial PoV, reducing the in-town emissions does make sense from an ecological PoV. Of course, Mrs Nod's "real" car makes even less sense from either PoV but it's beautiful and fun so sod it - it's only money! (And her money at that!!!)

Yes, it's Auris specific, but I bet with a bit of research you could come up with similar numbers for any hybrid/EV on the market ATM. As for the ecological impact, I'm pretty sure it's still the case that most of the energy costs over a car's lifetime are incurred during manufacture. Now there's an argument that green minded people need to buy EVs so that they get better and cost less but I looked into all of this about 6 months ago and went from desperately wanting to buy a hybrid to driving a second hand Honda

 

[Nod]

All we're trying to do is get the emissions out of town.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Yes, it's Auris specific, but I bet with a bit of research you could come up with similar numbers for any hybrid/EV on the market ATM. As for the ecological impact, I'm pretty sure it's still the case that most of the energy costs over a car's lifetime are incurred during manufacture. Now there's an argument that green minded people need to buy EVs so that they get better and cost less but I looked into all of this about 6 months ago and went from desperately wanting to buy a hybrid to driving a second hand Honda

My calculations aren't quite so pessimistic, possibly because i am looking at leasing price and the kia soul is 100% electric so much cheaper per mile than a hybrid.

The breakeven point for me, comparing to my current car that has no depreciation (its old...), mediocre mpg (35mpg), and quite expensive tax (£240 PA) is 22000 miles to make the Kia Soul (at £250 per month lease) cheaper to run than my current car.

Or if i look at the breakeven lease cost instead of altering the mileage - at my current (low) miles per year of around 8,000 miles PA, the lease would need to be around £100 per month.

Now i am going to stick my neck out and say that a step change down in electric car pricing is going to happen over the coming couple fo years, meaning that someone like myself with even an old car and nil depreciation, will be financially better of with a brand new electric car. And that is at current fuel / tax prices - if petrol goes up 50% and tax doubles (not beyond the realms of imagination...) the breakeven lease would be £175 per month. That will mean vast numbers of car owners getting rid of their old cars and leasing brand new electric cars. Perhaps the tipping point is sooner than we think....

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Vauhall Ampera may be within reach. This could be the only car you need, and they are nicer than dreaded insignias (cough broken cranks cough)

 

[JonathanRyan]

My calculations aren't quite so pessimistic, possibly because i am looking at leasing price and the kia soul is 100% electric so much cheaper per mile than a hybrid.

The breakeven point for me, comparing to my current car that has no depreciation (its old...), mediocre mpg (35mpg), and quite expensive tax (£240 PA) is 22000 miles to make the Kia Soul (at £250 per month lease) cheaper to run than my current car.

Or if i look at the breakeven lease cost instead of altering the mileage - at my current (low) miles per year of around 8,000 miles PA, the lease would need to be around £100 per month.

Now i am going to stick my neck out and say that a step change down in electric car pricing is going to happen over the coming couple fo years, meaning that someone like myself with even an old car and nil depreciation, will be financially better of with a brand new electric car. And that is at current fuel / tax prices - if petrol goes up 50% and tax doubles (not beyond the realms of imagination...) the breakeven lease would be £175 per month. That will mean vast numbers of car owners getting rid of their old cars and leasing brand new electric cars. Perhaps the tipping point is sooner than we think....

I think you're right. So if the tipping point it (say) 25% from your use then it may make sense to take a gamble. Or just buy something you want/believe you should.

But there's also a significant risk that battery tech will change massively soon. Who knows - maybe with universal quick swap batteries, maybe with new chemistry, maybe just with a super fast charging connector that can't be retro fitted. If that happens, early adopters will get crucified on their residuals.

 

[Steep]

That's a risk you take with any technology purchase though, you have to decide if you want it 'now' or are willing to wait and see. Of course if you wait you could be waiting forever because there's always going to be one more improvement just around the corner.

 

[JonathanRyan]

That's a risk you take with any technology purchase though, you have to decide if you want it 'now' or are willing to wait and see. Of course if you wait you could be waiting forever because there's always going to be one more improvement just around the corner.

Yes. But a 20k - 30k purchase is a little more serious than buying a Betamax.

 

[jondc]

Now looking at Kia Soul EV, good lease price. Oh why did I start reading this thread:

 

[srichards]

Now looking at Kia Soul EV, good lease price. Oh why did I start reading this thread:

Soul EV is an excellent EV. It's got loads of kit as standard like heated seats, heated steering wheel and reversing camera. DAB and Apple/Android car integration.

 

[Nod]

Only problem with the Soul is the price tag! £26k after the grant...

 

[srichards]

Only problem with the Soul is the price tag! £26k after the grant...

Nobody pays that. Lease it for 3 years and you'll pay about £8400.

Second hand ones start at £14k now. Still got 4 years warranty left. My old one is for sale in Cardiff for £16k and it's not even 2 years old yet.

Nobody pays list price now

 

[Nod]

Have to have a look at the local dealer and see if they've got (or can get) any 2nd hand. Call me old fashioned but I don't like having anything that isn't mine - the only thing we rent is Mrs Nod's business premises.

 

[srichards]

PCP often has incentives and money off that make buying with it cheaper than cash. You can always settle it early anyway. Best of both worlds

 

[Callumz]

personally I wouldn’t purchase an ev outright at the moment as the depreciation on them is much higher due to the rapid rate that the technology is advancing

 

[Defiance]

Only problem with the Soul is the price tag! £26k after the grant...

And there lies the current issue with EV/PHEV at the moment (in my humble opinion), the price tag for the vehicle is much higher than the fossil fuel alternative and the depreciation equally so.

 

[srichards]

Nobody is paying list price for any EVs. Incentives discount them so it's just a waste of time to even look at what the list price is.

List price for new cars has long been a complete irrelevance to what they cost anyway. EVs are no different.

 

[nilagin]

Nobody is paying list price for any EVs. Incentives discount them so it's just a waste of time to even look at what the list price is.

List price for new cars has long been a complete irrelevance to what they cost anyway.

Depends on the car and demand for the car. There were no discounts available on my car unless buying a dealer stock car. I was about to order a car to be built, fortunate for me, a local dealer had the colour and spec I wanted plus another couple of options, sitting in stock for a couple of months with £1k knocked off, making it cheaper than if I had one built.

 

[Phil V]

PCP often has incentives and money off that make buying with it cheaper than cash. You can always settle it early anyway. Best of both worlds

This^
I was completely ignorant of the rise of PCP/leasing till it dawned on me that everyone was now driving ‘premium’ vehicles. The customer who 10 years ago bought a 3 year old Focus now drives a brand new Audi. They haven’t all found an extra £20k under the bed, the simple fact is that the ‘monthly payment’ is affordable.

At the end of the day, vehicles are not a capital asset, so the cost of ownership is the cost of depreciation (+ running costs) and the total cost of depreciation is similar for new and used cars, and manufacturers subsidise PCP to sell new cars.

It’ll only last whilst there are people who insist on ‘owning’ as they’re propping up the value of used cars and therefore supporting the PCP/ lease model.

 

[nilagin]

I

This^
I was completely ignorant of the rise of PCP/leasing till it dawned on me that everyone was now driving ‘premium’ vehicles. The customer who 10 years ago bought a 3 year old Focus now drives a brand new Audi. They haven’t all found an extra £20k under the bed, the simple fact is that the ‘monthly payment’ is affordable.

At the end of the day, vehicles are not a capital asset, so the cost of ownership is the cost of depreciation (+ running costs) and the total cost of depreciation is similar for new and used cars, and manufacturers subsidise PCP to sell new cars.

It’ll only last whilst there are people who insist on ‘owning’ as they’re propping up the value of used cars and therefore supporting the PCP/ lease model.

You can still buy the car outright on a pcp deal if you wish, the total cost can be the same overall compared to hp, but you have the added bonus of lower payments for a few years. Or you can just trade the car in on a new car nearer the time of settlement. What works well for pcp deals is when they are on 0% interest as the deposit can be quite low along with the monthly payments.

 

[Phil V]

I

You can still buy the car outright on a pcp deal if you wish, the total cost can be the same overall compared to hp, but you have the added bonus of lower payments for a few years. Or you can just trade the car in on a new car nearer the time of settlement. What works well for pcp deals is when they are on 0% interest as the deposit can be quite low along with the monthly payments.

I’m aware of how they work, I was just making the point that most people nowadays are a million miles away from the actual list price of a car, their buying decisions are based on monthly outlay.

 

[nilagin]

I’m aware of how they work, I was just making the point that most people nowadays are a million miles away from the actual list price of a car, their buying decisions are based on monthly outlay.

But you said manufacturers subsidise pcp deals, as I said there is little if any difference in total outlay between buying on pcp or hp. It has nothing to do with the list price. PCP, just gives the flexibility of changing the car more often for less outlay. Most of my mates at work who have their cars on pcp, change them every 9 months. If they go for a similar car each time, their payments remain roughly the same, sometimes even less if there is a loyalty bonus in effect and they never have to pay for a service.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Yes, it's Auris specific, but I bet with a bit of research you could come up with similar numbers for any hybrid/EV on the market ATM. As for the ecological impact, I'm pretty sure it's still the case that most of the energy costs over a car's lifetime are incurred during manufacture.

I have seen most often in the past is half from its construction and descrution for a car with an average life, which is I think about 12 years (I just tried to get a figure and the closest I could find was the SMMT saying 13.9 years). So the longer you keep a car running the more green you are. If you just buy new and leave it for the vehicle to fall down the 'food chain' to people that can't really afford to maintain it, then that's less green as it increases the chance of it being scrapped when there's a big bill and a new one being manufactured with the consequent pollution costs (one has to consider the big picture, including what happens to the car you replace when going for a more green replacement, which sadly few do).