'Event'/ sport togs - quick question for you

Dangleman

Dangleman

Messages
1,316
Name
Dan
Edit My Images
No
A while ago I started a thread about a rowing regatta that's coming up, which I have the opportunity to be the 'official' photographer for. It's not a huge / famous event, and this type of assignment is outside the norm for me (I'm a commercial and Editorial tog primarily).

However, to cut a long story short, I know someone from the rowing club, and I'm looking to broaden my work a bit at the moment/ get new clients. I also won't be (and am not interested in, not yet anyway) printing on site, or hooking up with an events outfit who would do. All images will be hosted on my website after the event which will have a smart proofing gallery that does online transactions through paypal.

However, the club have proposed the following arrangement for the day:

"We invite several stalls
of various types to our event all of which pay a set fee of £100, whatever
profit they make from the day is for them to keep without any further
commissions to xyz"

So, I wanted to gauge opinion on here if this is:

a) the 'normal' carry on for this type of event?
b) More importantly, will it be worth my while financially following this route ie how many prints am I realistically likely to sell from a rowing regatta? I'd need to sell at least 50 at £10 a pop to make it any way viable for me.

Thoughts?....
 
Last edited:
It is fairly normal for the organiser to charge a fee for a pitch but you would need to find out how many peeps were taking part.

It would be no use if there are only 60 or 70 entrants.
 
Blimey !! £100. It'll need to be a pretty big event to justify that. I wouldn't pay that to be there. Best chance of sales are on the day. These purchases are more emotive. 24 hours later means a lot of the excitement has cooled along with desire for a photographic record I shoot equine events never earned much on shoots where I only offered web sales.
 
trevorbray said:
Blimey !! £100. It'll need to be a pretty big event to justify that. I wouldn't pay that to be there. Best chance of sales are on the day. These purchases are more emotive. 24 hours later means a lot of the excitement has cooled along with desire for a photographic record I shoot equine events never earned much on shoots where I only offered web sales.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies so far folks. :)

Trevor - I thought £100 seemed steep for this, but as I say I'm in the dark about this type of set up.

A bit more info for you:

- Will be around 400 competitors

- They also say:

"we will also promote the area of your site that contains the
competition images through email marketing to the competing clubs after the
event in exchange for a small amount of pictures taken on the day to help
promote future events, to which you will again be invited."

So, they also want use of some images themselves (for nothing naturally! Classic). This might be a bargaining tool though, ie I offer them the use of a small amount of images from the day for use as proposed in return for my 'pitch fee' being much lower eg £50, £30. Nowt?

Thoughts?
 
If you aren't on-site printing, why do you need a stall? There will be nothing for the punters to see and you'll need to man/equip it. Waste of time.

What you need is an advert in the programme and a link on the event website that points to your gallery.

A hundred quid for that seems far too much, offer them a cut of the photos sold - a flat rate per print sold, say 50p or something and you'll allow them 6 pictures for promotional use FOC (not as prints). Get it in writing.

Trevor is right though, unless you are on-site printing you'll need a lot of competitors to sell anything like a day's pay's worth, even with a financial arrangement as above.
 
desantnik said:
If you aren't on-site printing, why do you need a stall? There will be nothing for the punters to see and you'll need to man/equip it. Waste of time.

What you need is an advert in the programme and a link on the event website that points to your gallery.

A hundred quid for that seems far too much, offer them a cut of the photos sold - a flat rate per print sold, say 50p or something and you'll allow them 6 pictures for promotional use FOC (not as prints). Get it in writing.

Trevor is right though, unless you are on-site printing you'll need a lot of competitors to sell anything like a day's pay's worth, even with a financial arrangement as above.
Click to expand...

That's some good advice there, thanks for that.

I had already tentatively proposed a 10% cut of all print sales as an option, but they seem keen on this pay for your 'stall' idea. As you say though, I won't have a stall or physical presence so it kind of negates their arguement.

I'll go back and propose the % cut or nothing I think. It will be a full on hard day's work, and although I'm looking for different avenues of work/ potential new clients, I'm not busting a gut for no return.
 
Last edited:
Personally I think you'd struggle to sell 50 prints on-line after the event.

You *may* get to that sort of figure if you displayed and printed at the event, but even then I'd be very wary of parting with a fixed fee for an genre of event that I'd never covered before.

If I was covering this event I'd be looking for not only a percentage based commission, but also one that started after I'd covered my costs.. ie 10/15/20% after the first £100/£200.. etc. Aside from being fair, it also gives the organisers an incentive to promote you both on the day and in any program / literature that they may produce.

If you do decide to cover it, make sure that everyone goes home with a card with your web address on it - station someone at the entrance/exit to give them out. Don't rely on people coming over to a stand.

If the organisers want photos then negotiate a rate or a discount. Why should you pay the same as the ice cream man - will he/she be giving free cornets to the organisers on top of the pitch fee ..?
 
Jerm said:
Personally I think you'd struggle to sell 50 prints on-line after the event.

You *may* get to that sort of figure if you displayed and printed at the event, but even then I'd be very wary of parting with a fixed fee for an genre of event that I'd never covered before.

If I was covering this event I'd be looking for not only a percentage based commission, but also one that started after I'd covered my costs.. ie 10/15/20% after the first £100/£200.. etc. Aside from being fair, it also gives the organisers an incentive to promote you both on the day and in any program / literature that they may produce.

If you do decide to cover it, make sure that everyone goes home with a card with your web address on it - station someone at the entrance/exit to give them out. Don't rely on people coming over to a stand.

If the organisers want photos then negotiate a rate or a discount. Why should you pay the same as the ice cream man - will he/she be giving free cornets to the organisers on top of the pitch fee ..?
Click to expand...

Hi Jerm - sorry to be dense but could you elaborate on this bit: "If I was covering this event I'd be looking for not only a percentage based commission, but also one that started after I'd covered my costs.. ie 10/15/20% after the first £100/£200.. etc."
 
He means not giving anything away as a cut on the prints until you've earnt the minimum you want for a day's shoot.

It means if you sell next to b****r all you aren't paying anything for the priviledge.

Its a good plan.

The other thing to do is to get something down in writing about having exclusive commercial photographic rights to the event. Its on private ground so the organisers can do this. Ask for any tickets for the event to contain wording to that effect and for their help in enforcement.

As the Dragons would say, without rights protection your product can be ripped off by anyone.
 
Thank you Desantnik - that's exactly right. If you play it right then it looks reasonable to the organisers and therefore difficult to turn away..

I think there are 2 key elements in this working for you.

Firstly the fact that you don't need a stand.

If you're not printing on-site then a stand is of no use to you at all. If you're not taking up space then it's not costing the organisers anything.

That being the case you're in a fairly strong position - IMHO - to go for a percentage of profits deal.

Secondly, as I've already mentioned, the key is to ensure that people know where to go to see the images after the event. Preprinted cards that say "to view the professional images shot at this event go to www...." would be ideal, thrust into everyones hands ideally as they enter the venue.

Give them out as people enter the venue in preference to exit as you'd be surprised how many parents/relatives will ask you to specifically shoot their rowers. To do that however, you need to be very obviously identifiable as the official photographer.
 
Last edited:
So to clarify guys you think

- I pay no attendance fee
- I offer them a percentage of print sales with some sort of tiered approach

Still being dense, could you give me a real world example of the second one?
 
My son rows for Marlow RC and I just shoot casually for them and some of them go on the club's web site. If you take lots of business cards with you, loads of people, especially proud parents, will ask for your details and probably buy off the website.

Rowing is a pain in the arse to shoot and get anything decent though !!!
 
Dangleman said:
Still being dense, could you give me a real world example of the second one?
Click to expand...

You need to price your prints first and see what you margin is on cost, then give some of it away.

For the threshold, work out what kinda amount you would get out of bed for (bearing in mind you actually will be shooting one day, developing and packaging/posting for another) and guess a random assortment of sized prints that would make up a profit matching your "get out of bed price".

If the figure you derive is not big enough when you are realistic about potential sales figures, walk away.
 
Still being dense, could you give me a real world example of the second one?
Click to expand...

15% of all takings after the first £200

So.. if takings are £500.. deduct the first £200 so the commission is 15% of £300 = £60.

This example is for illustrative purposes only and is in no way indicative of my negotiating skills or otherwise ;~)

Rowing is a pain in the arse to shoot and get anything decent though !!!
Click to expand...

I'd trawl (nautical pun) the sites of any rowing specialists and get a good feel for the types of shots they take, angles etc.

I presume that you wont be traveling in a support boat, and that you'll be shooting from the bank ? That being the case you'll need a decent lens - at the very least something better than the spectators have.

I've not shot rowing, but I'd guess at a 300 or 400mm lens, but Chazza may be more help there.
 
Last edited:
desantnik said:
The other thing to do is to get something down in writing about having exclusive commercial photographic rights to the event. Its on private ground so the organisers can do this. Ask for any tickets for the event to contain wording to that effect and for their help in enforcement.

As the Dragons would say, without rights protection your product can be ripped off by anyone.
Click to expand...

This was my first thought too, I wouldn't pay for any thing unless they can police a ban on other togs too. It's no good them saying your exclusive, unless it can be physically enforced!
 
Thanks chaps. Really do appreciate this advice massively. I have another question. To reassure the client how will they know how many sales I make? They may think I won't disclose them all as a way to give them less cut...
 
Gotta say I think they are being a bit greedy. I shoot many equine events and pay nothing. Just supply a few images as requested to the organisers.
Without sales on site you really are up against it.
Can you reconsider? It means another body who'll need some payment but the extra sales will probably make it worthwhile.
Maybe offer 10% of sales over the first £200.
Always assuming that if you have to set up outside you'll have adequate weather cover, generator, tables for viewing stations and computer and printer.
Not sure on the timetable for these things but there is always the chance that zillions of competitors, parents and hangers on will all want to view at the same time !!
Happens that way at most events.

Good luck.
 
I am covering a small equestrian event at the end of Aug,and no fee was even considered. Not sure there is that much to be made at these events at the moment.

Printing on site is preferable, but needs an extra person (at least) and the kit to print on site, I just dont have another skilled person available so its the internet or me and promoting the site as much as possible.
 
I know of one photographer that actually specialises in rowing and a recent trend is chancers just turning up, photographing and handing out cards - no way you can police this so that should be part of the contract - if they dont stop others trying to take photos for profit they dont get paid - make them earn their money. What makes you stand out from the uncle bob is being able to print and sell on-site - if you cant do that I would probably not bother.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
. What makes you stand out from the uncle bob is being able to print and sell on-site - if you cant do that I would probably not bother.

Mike
Click to expand...

Makes a lot of sense to me.:thumbs:
 
Dangleman said:
Thanks chaps. Really do appreciate this advice massively. I have another question. To reassure the client how will they know how many sales I make? They may think I won't disclose them all as a way to give them less cut...
Click to expand...


Any ideas?
 
Really interested to know how this turned out ?
 
Neil, if you look up the top of this thread Trevor talks about onsite vs web sales from experience and that also is in line with everything I've been told by others specialising in event photography.
 
I am sure with the right marketing strategy you can sell more photos online than without the right marketing strategy but nothing will change the fact that by being in their face on the day you will get impulse/heat of the moment purchases that you cannot get by any kind of post-event marketing strategy.

Which is nice, too :D
 
desantnik said:
I am sure with the right marketing strategy you can sell more photos online than without the right marketing strategy but nothing will change the fact that by being in their face on the day you will get impulse/heat of the moment purchases that you cannot get by any kind of post-event marketing strategy.

Which is nice, too :D
Click to expand...

nope and i get that, but what im saying is that people shouldnt write off only selling online as a pointless exercise :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top