Exposing back lit subjects

[Clonetrooper]

Basically any tips on how you achieve better results with a 'mid day' sun backlight subject.

It would seem I have silhouettes nailed

I was unsure where was best to meter and whether to try and fill in with flash?

I know it's not the best time of day to shoot but I had little option. What shots I did get of my son I've had to rescue a bit with DPP as best I could.

A bit of a failure but one I'd like to work from

 

[fallen_mathi]

personally, unless i wanted a siluet, fill flash is the best way, what sort of flash are you using? if its a hotshoe mount flash gun, than you can either set it manually, (working it out by guessing, or taking a reading from a light metre), or if the flash gun has it you can use Ettl, which will set the flash near enough perfectly, allowing you to metre for the background...

 

[Musicman]

Dare I say, this is one of those occasions when a hand-held meter and shooting manual comes in useful (though I'm sure someone will be along to tell you all about the alternative joys of spot metering and grey cards)

And there are some subjects that you simply cannot fill with flash...

 

[david1701]

spot meter from the face, test shot

if looks **** use it as a base for a manual exposure (+ like 2 stops)

I really like blowing out the bg for this

 

[Clonetrooper]

personally, unless i wanted a siluet, fill flash is the best way, what sort of flash are you using? if its a hotshoe mount flash gun, than you can either set it manually, (working it out by guessing, or taking a reading from a light metre), or if the flash gun has it you can use Ettl, which will set the flash near enough perfectly, allowing you to metre for the background...

I have a 430ex speedlite, I didn't think to use it tbh. Although the light was so bright I had problems reviewing my lcd and it wasn't til I got back inside I realised what a hash I'd made of it

spot meter from the face, test shot

if looks **** use it as a base for a manual exposure (+ like 2 stops)

I really like blowing out the bg for this

I will try that as well, planning on having a practice tommorow if the sun comes out again

 

[Musicman]

Here's a nicely written guide to tricky lighting situations.

http://www.lighting-essentials.com/using-a-lightmeter-and-placing-the-photographic-exposure/

It's aimed at the use of a hand-held meter, but there are some useful insights into the principles whatever metering method you're using.

 

[HoppyUK]

Here's a nicely written guide to tricky lighting situations.

http://www.lighting-essentials.com/using-a-lightmeter-and-placing-the-photographic-exposure/

It's aimed at the use of a hand-held meter, but there are some useful insights into the principles whatever metering method you're using.

Or how to make a mountain out of a molehill. Sorry, but why make such a simple, and common situation so complicated? Even if you have a hand meter available, you have to know how to use it, and be prepared to faff about with it. When auto-flash was pretty much made to do it all for you. (And anyone that talks about the Zone System in the context of digital doesn't know what they're on about. I digress.)

The problem is that dynamic range is far too great for the sensor to record. No exposure setting will get both the bright background and shaded foregound correct. You have to close the ratio gap by brightening the foreground to get it closer to the background. You could do that with a reflector, and it would probably give a nice result, but flash is easier.

Camera on Av, flash on E-TTL, shoot, bang. That's it

If you don't like the balance between the foreground and background that the camera has chosen, then you adjust the foreground (flash) brightness with +/- compensation on the gun, and adjust the background with +/- compensation on the camera. They work independently.

Potential problems. If the main subject is off to one side of the frame, the flash might try and expose for the distance in the centre and as a result will blitz the foreground. So use the Flash Exposure Lock (FEL button marked * ) which the handbook explains. Basically point the camera at the subject, press the * button which fires the pre-flash and calculates the expose and then locks the correct power output required. Recompose and shoot.

If it's really bright, the shutter speed for the ambient exposure might rise above the max x-sync speed (1/250sec on a 50D) but that is easily sorted in one of two ways. Just use a higher f/number or lower ISO. Or, with good guns like the 430EX, switch to High Speed Sync which works with any shutter speed (but reduces flash range, so only suitable for close-ish subjects). In fact, with your outfit you can leave the flash permanently switched to HSS (see handbook) and it will only engage when the shutter speed demands it, and will disengage when the shutter speed drops back again, automatically.

 

[Clonetrooper]

Thanks Hoppy really nice set of instructions, thanks a lot. Shame you don't live next door I'd bug you everyday

Had a play with the equipment and found the settings for my flash.

 

[Trig's]

..... Shame you don't live next door I'd bug you everyday

Joys of a forum - as your or anyone's question's would help many who have the same/similar question's, but who were afraid to ask

 

[CT]

Some good advice but everyone is omitting the simple solution in favour of flash -what's up with a bit of natura llight?

Move close in to your subject so that the face fills the viewfinder and press the exposure lock button. Move back to where you want to take the shot from - press the shutter - job done!

Alternatively set manual mode and again move in so that the face fills the viewfinder - balance the exposure scale for the face in the viewfinder - again move back and take your shot(ignoring the fact that your viewfinder exposure reading will now look way off) The advantage of this method is that your can continue taking shots as long as you like as long as the light doesn't change and you're shooting from the same position.

You can get some lovely natural light effects with this method with very flattering rim lights like a halo around the hair from the back lighting.

 

[unclened]

you are gauranteed that when hoppyuk is on the scene, no further advice is needed! (not that I could provide any )

 

[Clonetrooper]

Joys of a forum - as your or anyone's question's would help many who have the same/similar question's, but who were afraid to ask

Yes I was very unsure to join and post here, but I've found it to be a very friendly place for the more experienced to give tips to people like myself.

Pleased I joined, I've learnt so much in the short time I've been reading here

Some good advice but everyone is omitting the simple solution in favour of flash -what's up with a bit of natura llight? (snip).

I will add that to my tips to try later, very helpfull when I'm travelling light. How does that work, filling the frame when you are a distance from a back lit person and using a telephoto. I presume you can only really do it on a lens with constant aperture through the range?

 

[CT]

I will add that to my tips to try later, very helpfull when I'm travelling light. How does that work, filling the frame when you are a distance from a back lit person and using a telephoto. I presume you can only really do it on a lens with constant aperture through the range?

Not at all. I'd use AV and let the camera choose the shutter speed OR as I said earlier, use Manual Mode, setting aperture and shutter speed yourself. The only real consideration is that when metering you fill the frame with the subject's face regardless of the focal length of the lens.

So with a 50mm lens you'd move right in close to achieve that, whereas with a 500mm lens you cold achieve the same thing from around 20 feet.

 

[EOS_JD]

Hoppy's version allows you to expose both the background and foreground and in many ocassions this is the preferred way. With CT's way you walk up close to the subject and hold the camera in frnt of the subject (as he says filling the frame with the subject - read the meter setting and enter this in M mode yourself so that when you move back to your shooting position, you take the shot and your subject should be well exposed - downside is the bvackground becomes over exposed or even white - this can also look good.

Both ways work well - just depends what you want to achieve.

 

[dalex_257]

Some good advice but everyone is omitting the simple solution in favour of flash -what's up with a bit of natura llight?

Move close in to your subject so that the face fills the viewfinder and press the exposure lock button. Move back to where you want to take the shot from - press the shutter - job done!

Alternatively set manual mode and again move in so that the face fills the viewfinder - balance the exposure scale for the face in the viewfinder - again move back and take your shot(ignoring the fact that your viewfinder exposure reading will now look way off)

Why this complexity - use the camera in spotmetering mode for the face and lock the exposure, then you don't have to come closer and move back.

Also this does not really help in situations Richard (HoppyUK) was talking about when dynamic range of the scene is too great as with this you are exposing for the face so the rest of the background if much brighter will be blown out.

 

[HoppyUK]

Thank you for the kind comments guys. Appreciated BTW, I only live a few miles from the OP!

As others have said, the problem with metering for just the face (in shade) is that the background will blow. Might looks nice though. You just need to make sure the meter only reads the subject's face, then lock that exposure setting either in manual of with the expsoure lock button. Use spot metering, move closer, or zoom in to get the reading.

Another alternative to fill-in flash is a reflector, and they actually work very well. Not as handy as a bit of flash, but might actually look nicer - the light is bounced of a large area from the reflector and is much softer than direct flash. You could even use both flash and the reflector together. Or fire the flash onto the reflector and bouce it off that. Lots of options to play around with.

Maybe get one of these - a flippin bargain £15 from FITP, and folds up pretty small. The one with a handle is great - you can hold it in you left hand as you shoot http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=1809729#post1809729 (Edit: post #3) With reflectors, when you're trying to angle it for maximum benefit, remember that light bounces off a surface at the same angle it strikes it - like a snooker ball off the cushion.

It's a fab day for it. Thought about taking a punt up the river Cam for a minute Post sum pix!

 

[CT]

Why this complexity - use the camera in spotmetering mode for the face and lock the exposure, then you don't have to come closer and move back.

Also this does not really help in situations Richard (HoppyUK) was talking about when dynamic range of the scene is too great as with this you are exposing for the face so the rest of the background if much brighter will be blown out.

Well you can use spot metering of course - but not all cameras have the facility. With regard to the background blowing you'd need to pick your background which you'd do most of the time anyway. Shooting the subject against the sky could lead to the sky being very blown, while choosing a nice foliage background, the bg would still be blown but less so, and probably give a very pleasing effect coupled with the rim lighting.

 

[The23rdman]

Using fill flash is great. Works great. Even better is to buy a e-ttl cord and hold that flash off camera to the side. You'll have the same ability to control the exposure, but your light will look so much better.

 

[MatW]

Using fill flash is great. Works great. Even better is to buy a e-ttl cord and hold that flash off camera to the side. You'll have the same ability to control the exposure, but your light will look so much better.

Or attach the (tethered) flash to a monopod for extra hand holding reach, Dave Hobby style! Only saw that yesterday, but what a top idea.

 

[The23rdman]

Or attach the (tethered) flash to a monopod for extra hand holding reach, Dave Hobby style! Only saw that yesterday, but what a top idea.

Yeah, was going to post a link to that, but couldn't find it.

 

[MatW]

Found it!

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/07/strobe-on-rope.html

 

[Clonetrooper]

With reflectors, when you're trying to angle it for maximum benefit, remember that light bounces off a surface at the same angle it strikes it - like a snooker ball off the cushion.

It's a fab day for it. Thought about taking a punt up the river Cam for a minute Post sum pix!

Thanks for that link, I might look into one of those reflectors once I've had another play at the techniques you guys have kindly offered up

The last place I'd take my camera is punting with my sense of balance after a few jars on a punt. I've never been and not had a tree put me in the cam atleast once

Thanks again all, for all the help and links for reading

 

[HoppyUK]

Well you can use spot metering of course - but not all cameras have the facility. With regard to the background blowing you'd need to pick your background which you'd do most of the time anyway. Shooting the subject against the sky could lead to the sky being very blown, while choosing a nice foliage background, the bg would still be blown but less so, and probably give a very pleasing effect coupled with the rim lighting.

Good suggestion No need to mess about with flash or tricky exposure control, plus an enhanced back-lit effect

 

[CT]

Good suggestion No need to mess about with flash or tricky exposure control, plus an enhanced back-lit effect

Don't get me wrong - in my wedding hack days I'd have gone for fill flash every time, but personally I'd go for available light by preference.

 

[Clonetrooper]

With other things going on today only managed a quick session of strong backlight, this time using the flash in AV mode as suggested, will try the Spot meter technique next week weather permitting.

I see what you guys meant now by over exposing the background. I had a high number of failures but I kinda like effect to some degree.

I will get better results next time when I start to remember to bias the flash exposure instead of making the rookie error of altering the exposure bias instead of flash bias DOH :bonk:

I would have been pleased with this (with a little adjustment) had the little guy not drooled because it's very sharp imo. I like the way the greens blow but need to make sure I take more care of lighter colours

50mm using the wrong type of bias

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7484/img0548o.jpg

 

[HoppyUK]

That's pretty good Danny. Just about there

Although technically the flash exposure is perfectly balanced, it looks a bit strong to my eye, a little bit obvious. When you look at an image like that, you expect the face to be a bit darker, because that's how it is in reality. The flash is just to give nature a helping hand.

That's what I mean about the balance being subjective, and can vary with different situations. I think most folks would say dial in -1 on the flash for that.

Just in the interests of experimentation, it might be a good idea to rattle off a series with the camera on a tripod and a static subject - last time I used a pineapple! Switch on HSS so there are no shutter speed problems, and run right through -2 to +2 on the camera, then -2 to +2 on the flash. Keep notes! Check the results. With the camera on a tripod you can just flick through them on the LCD and you can see exactly how the light changes. Then pick the best background, the best foreground, and dial in those settings for an optimum result

Then have a go with a reflector eg white pillow case, see what that does for you. Then try CT's advice and find a position where the subject is bright back-lit, but the background is dark. Should look sweet

 

[CT]

I have a love/hate relationship with flash.Modern electronic guns are incredibly powerful tools and never fail to impress me with their fast recycling times these days - sunlight in your pocket.

As Hoppys says - you're pretty much there - just a tad less flash - I'd normally dial down the flash output about a stop.

Now looking at the shot hyper critically and this isn't anything to do with you - it's the nature of flash mounted on camera.

Look how flat the lighting is. Get the flash off and away from the camera and that will help a lot, or if you must use it on camera get a good flash diffuser to soften that 'deer in the headlights' effect. The on camera flash is also causing that unsightly shadow under the chin.

Look how tiny and unnatural those pupils have gone closing down from the flash giving the poor kid those gimlet eyes.

Flash - love it and hate it!

Give my natural light way a go - I'd love to see what you produce.

 

[HoppyUK]

This is where it gets subjective. I disagree with CT about taking the flash off-camera for basic fill-in.

That is because, IMHO, you are trying to conceal the use of flash and if you take it away from the lens axis, it will immediately cast shadows across the face, it will look unnatural and the game is up. As a simple test, just turn the camera vertically so that the flash is to one side, and the shadows that are currently semi-hidden beneath the nose are now cast across the cheek. I think that is a worse result, but you may disagree.

My opinion is that it is better to keep the flash where it is, but turn it down, maybe a little more than one stop, so that at least some of the daylight is having an effect, softening the flash and maybe allowing some natural modelling from the sky above to put a hint of normal shadow under the nose, lips and chin.

If you want to take this style of shooting further, you can get nicer softer modelling from an on-camera flash by using a Lumiquest diffuser, providing you are quite close - as you are with this pic. When you get more than a few feet away, the softening effect is reduced as the relative size of the diffuser becomes smaller with distance. I like this Quik Bounce, because it is so versatile and does a lot of other handy flash tricks, including bounce-fill, vertical and horizontal. I use one a lot - £40 http://www.lumiquest.com/products/quik-bounce.htm

Incidentally, the small pupils are nothing to do with the flash. It's the high ambient light level causing that. The eye has no time to react to the flash.

 

[CT]

I don't mind you disagreeing with me Hoppy,

Flash off -camera wont cast shadows across the face depending on the angle it's used at - particularly with suitable diffusion.

The pupils have already closed down due to the pre - flash before the flash proper.

 

[HoppyUK]

I don't mind you disagreeing with me Hoppy,

Flash off -camera wont cast shadows across the face depending on the angle it's used at - particularly with suitable diffusion.

The only way it won't cast shadows is if it's on axis with the lens, or turned down very low.

The pupils have already closed down due to the pre - flash before the flash proper.

Not possible. The pre-flash goes off about 1/100sec before the main flash. You can even detect it as a separate flash.

 

[CT]

The only way it won't cast shadows is if it's on axis with the lens, or turned down very low.

You're talking about achieving a natural result with fill flash when you should be saying "as natural as possible"

In the real world we never see subjects lit full on horizintally, which is why flash on camera looks so unnatural - light tends to come from above whether from the sky or room lighting, and it does cast shadows - just not as harsh as those produced by flash on camera.

Not possible. The pre-flash goes off about 1/100sec before the main flash. You can even detect it as a separate flash.

Of course it's separate - that's the whole point. I'm not sure what you're saying, but if it's that the pupil can't react in the time between the two flashes I'mn ot buying it - I've shot too many blinkers caused by that pre flash.

 

[HoppyUK]

Morning Cedric!

You're talking about achieving a natural result with fill flash when you should be saying "as natural as possible"

In the real world we never see subjects lit full on horizintally, which is why flash on camera looks so unnatural - light tends to come from above whether from the sky or room lighting, and it does cast shadows - just not as harsh as those produced by flash on camera.

Yes, it's all about as natural a result as possible. And given that it's virtually impossible to eliminate shadows completely with fill-flash, I think it's best to conceal them as much as possible, or make them look as if they might be natural. Keeping the flash on-axis helps that, softening it helps even more.

It's a subjective opinion. It is also easier.

Of course it's separate - that's the whole point. I'm not sure what you're saying, but if it's that the pupil can't react in the time between the two flashes I'mn ot buying it - I've shot too many blinkers caused by that pre flash.

I don't think you're talking about the pre-flash - some kind of red-eye reduction feature perhaps.

With E-TTL the pre-flash goes off after the shutter release is fully depessed, in the instant before the mirror rises, for exposure calculation. It's incredibly fast, you can't distinguish it visually from the main flash which fires milleseconds later.

With remote E-TTL flash a whole stream of coded instruction pulses go out in the same time frame, at the rate of 50,000 per second.

 

[CT]

I don't think you're talking about the pre-flash - some kind of red-eye reduction feature perhaps.

Me - use redeye rediction .... do behave!

Come on mate - which of these two statements are you going to the bank with?

Not possible. The pre-flash goes off about 1/100sec before the main flash. You can even detect it as a separate flash.

With E-TTL the pre-flash goes off after the shutter release is fully depessed, in the instant before the mirror rises, for exposure calculation. It's incredibly fast, you can't distinguish it visually from the main flash which fires milleseconds later.

.

Look at those pupils - the light is behind the subject and the eyes are in shade there's no way the pupils would be that small...

Nighters Hoppy.

 

[HoppyUK]

Me - use redeye rediction .... do behave!

Come on mate - which of these two statements are you going to the bank with?

Look at those pupils - the light is behind the subject and the eyes are in shade there's no way the pupils would be that small...

Nighters Hoppy.

I'm banking both of them.

It's a bright day. The pupils are small. No surprises there.

The whole sequence of auto-TTL flash is incredibly fast. In the tiny fractions of a second after the shutter release is pressed and the mirror rising, there is enough time for the flash to emit the pre-flash, measure the exposure, and if necessary (in remote multi-flash master mode) issue a stream of coded command flash pulses instructing the remote guns. Then the shutter opens, and the main flash for the exposure is fired at the measured output. The remote guns follow suit. Shutter closes.

You can't detect any of this happening with the naked eye.

The iris/pupil takes maybe a quarter of a second or more to react to bright light. No way is that happening here.

I don't know what your subjects were winking at, maybe it was you Cederz but it wasn't the pre-flash.

NB, as quoted earlier, Canon officially states that E-TTL can strobe at up to 50,000 cycles per second. That's how fast it's happening.

 

[Clonetrooper]

Cheers again guys for the feedback, nice to read two differeing views on achieveing a result. Thanks to you both.

I didn't use HSS on the speedlite I will enable that next time in light that strong.

I will also try a pineapple because it's easier to get to sit still than my son
and then use the tripod and compare results like you mentioned.

CT I will definately then give your natural light method a go as well and post up some results

 

[Richard King]

choice: can you light it? yes/no

yes: use flash, reflectors or any lighting you have available, and play with the balance between ambient and your lighting
no: consider tripod, multiple exposures at different shutter speeds, & combining the images in PS. Or.. spot meter the subject you want correct exposure for, and call that the best comprimise. Bracket