f16 Sunny Rule

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mini-barrow

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Am currently doing a photography course and have been asked to look at the f16 sunny rule.
I have taken some photos today to look at this topic and try and expalin my findings but I don't see any differences in the pictures.

I took pictures at the following settings:

f16 iso 100 1/100
f16 iso 200 1/200
f16 iso 400 1/400
f16 iso 800 1/800
f16 iso 1600 1/1600
f16 iso 3200 1/3200

from what i can see there is no differences in the pictures. Maybe there wasn't enough sun :bonk:

what am i supposed to see?
should there be any changes? exposure,light,shadows

look at websites but doesn't explain what i should be seeing in the pictures.:eek:

many help most appreciated:help:
 
Good news, you have just demonstrated the Sunny 16 rule perfectly.

The exposure should remain constant throughtout by doing this test, so the only difference you will see is an increase in noise (and reduction of dynamic range) as you go up to the higher ISO settings. In outdoor shots this will be less noticable...

The sunny 16 rule says that in sunny weather, at F16, the exposure will be balanced when the shutter speed matches the ISO. By seeing no change, you have proved that perfectly.
 
You have halved the amount of light hitting the sensor by increasing the shutter speed whilst at the same time virtually increasing the sensitivity of the sensor by increasing the ISO by the same value.
 
There would be no change here as they are all the same exposure.

You are increasing the ISO and shortening the shutter speed which in simple terms cancels out the increase in ISO.
Of course there will be a difference in image quality as the higher the ISO, the noisier the image will become.
 
What you have proved is the first part of the sunny 16 rule, which Richard has shown above: "The sunny 16 rule says that in sunny weather, at F16, the exposure will be balanced when the shutter speed matches the ISO."

This was part of a method photographers used to estimate exposure settings without using a meter, which at one time would have been a separate piece of kit that not everyone could afford, unlike now when they are built in to all cameras.

Based on this information (ie iso 400 film, sunny day, shutter speed of 1/400th sec at f16), then a bright, cloudy day would be f11, an overcast day would be f8, dark clouds would need f5.6, etc, all at 1/400th sec, and you could get a reasonably good exposure, especially considering that colour negative film had a fair amount of latitude; black and white even more.

Have a read of this: http://www.digital-photo-secrets.com/tip/1565/the-sunny-16-rule/
HTH.
 
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david357 said:
What you have proved is the first part of the sunny 16 rule, which Richard has shown above: "The sunny 16 rule says that in sunny weather, at F16, the exposure will be balanced when the shutter speed matches the ISO."

This was part of a method photographers used to estimate exposure settings without using a meter, which at one time would have been a separate piece of kit that not everyone could afford, unlike now when they are built in to all cameras.

Based on this information (ie iso 400 film, sunny day, shutter speed of 1/400th sec at f16), then a bright, cloudy day would be f11, an overcast day would be f8, dark clouds would need f5.6, etc, all at 1/400th sec, and you could get a reasonably good exposure, especially considering that colour negative film had a fair amount of latitude.

Have a read of this: http://www.digital-photo-secrets.com/tip/1565/the-sunny-16-rule/
HTH.
Click to expand...

OMG that's just made it all clear to me :clap: I'd neve really understood it before

Thanks :D
 
If you live where I do you'll never get a chance to use the sunny 16 rule...
 
Sonriendo said:
OMG that's just made it all clear to me :clap: I'd neve really understood it before

Thanks :D
Click to expand...

Ooh Sarah, you've just given me a lovely warm feeling all over :love:

I forgot to mention that every film packet either had those guidelines printed on the outside or on a leaflet enclosed in the box.
 
It's a very useful but rather inaccurate rule of thumb - better used during Summer when it's less inaccurate! At this time of year, f/8 is probably closer on a sunny day and even in summer in the UK, unless it's really clear, f/11 is generally closer. As has been said above, negative film has enough latitude for even the f/16 to give (usually) useable results, although (especially in winter) the negs may be a little thin...

Although it's handy to know, it's far less necessary these days since almost all adjustable cameras are either fully automatic or at least have meters built in and also, if the battery's flat, the camera's unuseable, so even if you know the vaguely correct settings, you can't use them (unless of course you're using a non battery reliant camera!).

Many years ago, I used to use the rule as a rough guide and if it was a more important shot and repeatable, I would bracket by a stop or so towards overexposure (in 1/2 stop increments) to get the best neg I could. Unrepeatable shots would generally get metered and the settings left alone until the light changed - any less than perfect exposures would get corrected (as much as possible) later in the darkroom.
 
Nod said:
It's a very useful but rather inaccurate rule of thumb - better used during Summer when it's less inaccurate! At this time of year, f/8 is probably closer on a sunny day and even in summer in the UK, unless it's really clear, f/11 is generally closer. As has been said above, negative film has enough latitude for even the f/16 to give (usually) useable results, although (especially in winter) the negs may be a little thin...
Click to expand...

All very true, I agree entirely with this, except that there is so much information there that the op will possibly find the simple rule more confusing again.

I was trying to give a simple explanation of the rule and how it works, which could then be adapted to suit - which is why I never said that the rule would probably be a stop out the other way for Sarah in Spain, where it is usually much brighter than here.

All imvho, of course.
 
Nod said:
It's a very useful but rather inaccurate rule of thumb.
Click to expand...

I disagree. It's quite accurate. Bear in mind that its intention was to be used during daylight hours with the sun behind you.

The sun is a constant light source with the only variable being the amount of diffusion created by cloud.

If you can accurately judge the cloud cover, you can get an accurate exposure.

If you want to factor in time of year, time of day, scene type, etc, I have a Johnson's Exposure disc which is very accurate.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7220/7128719771_c7bd032bd7_z.jpg


Steve
 
mini-barrow said:
Am currently doing a photography course and have been asked to look at the f16 sunny rule.
Click to expand...

The real 'lesson' is in this:-

david357 said:
This was part of a method photographers used to estimate exposure settings without using a meter, which at one time would have been a separate piece of kit that not everyone could afford, unlike now when they are built in to all cameras.
Click to expand...

I suspect that the object of the excersise is not so much to consider the well known relationship between film-speed, shutter-speed and aparture... BUT, to question the actual relevence and importance of 'metering' in general.

You have had a whole load of replies, that say how accurate or innacurate the rough reckoner may or may not be... but here-in lies the difference between B and an A+

The answer to the set question wont merely be to find out what the rule is, and why it works, how accurate it may be, or whether its at all 'useful'.

But, in an age where metering is now almost transparent, built in to almost every camera along with so much automation, and where photogrophers start to take control, look at how accurate that automation may be.... and the phrase you possibly want to put into report is "Are we looking in the right place?... How much is in the 'eye' of the photographer?"

The lesson is, that so much photography is in our eye.. and we think about that in terms of our creative 'vision'; subject, composition, tone mood, atmosphere etc... and leave the technical side of things to the technology.... we need to make an exposure.... we need to meter the light.... so.. we need a 'meter'.... BUT we already have one. One more sensitive than anything using semi-conductors..... our eye.

Old time photographers made brilliant pictures and got wonderful exposures, and they did that without anything but thier own eye and experience.

Over in tutorials, Pookeyhead has his thread Everything you need to know about exposure theory but were afraid to ask 101, and he talks about the reciprocity law, and incident light meter readings vs ambient light meter readings, and the foolishness of cameras working to 18% grey-scale calibration.

This is all good stuff, and what you should be pondering the F16-Sunny rule against... but the conslusion should be... "Metering... by whatever method, is ONLY ever a guide.... its the photographer, using their EYE, who at the end of the day, has to use their judgement whether to go with what the meters suggest, and may even try doing for you.... OR make adjustments.

That is what the f16-Sunny rule question is REALLY begging you to discover.
 
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God I hate "rules"!
 
A Parcel arrived at Maison-Tef this morning. It contained a Lenningrad 4 selenium cell exposure meter. Made in the Soveit Union in 1976, a perfect partner to the Russian Zennit ER I've had for eons but never really used.... but to be pressed into action becouse my Daughter wants to learn something about 'proper' photrography.

Just checked this meters calibration on a couple of incident readings inside & outside against my Nikon, and, pretty impressive! Things almost bang-on with what the Nikon suggests, from something made in Russia at the time of the goolags, that doesn't even have batteries!

Ok, its a nice day here; must be fairly good weather, the bikers are out! At lattitude 52.51953 North. there's a BIT of cloud about, but its thin and clearing. I would call it.... 'Fairly-Sunny'

Just walked around the house, and getting ambient light readings from this bit of low-tech kit, between EV7 & EV8, depending whether I'm stood in shun or shade, nudged EV8.5 looking into the sun.

For (ISO)100ASA, EV7 gives 'between' 1/8 & 1/15th @ F16
EV7.5 my 'average' meter reading, gives 1/15th @ f16
EV8, upper reading gives 'between' 1/15 & 1/30th @ f16

The F16-Sunny rule would suggest that at for a day like this, with pretty clear sky's then, I ought to need, 100th @ f16 on ISO100...

But my ambient readings are suggesting, what two-stops over?

Repeat Excersise, taking some incident light readings, pointing at different subjects, Dark wood shed, white caravan, mid-tone (blue) car etc. Get EV's from about 8 to 10.

For (ISO)100ASA, EV8, upper reading gives 'between' 1/15 & 1/30th @ f16 (still)
EV9 my 'average' meter reading, gives 1/30th @ f16
EV10 my 'upper' meter reading, gives 1/60th @ f16

That's about one stop down from the F16-Sunny suggestion... but then? How 'sunny' is sunny? I said I thought it was 'fairly' sunny.... so one stop down, for a little cloud? Would that be about right?

Here's the sky, between my house and next door. Straight shot; ISO100; 1/100th @ f16...

DSC_1533_zpsb073deeb.jpg


A little under exposed, but not by AS much as the cameras meter suggested that wanted to knock off about a third of a stop.

What does this little experiment tell us?

Well... first, it makes me very pleased with my £2.50 e-bay bit of old junk light meter!

Second.... the F16-Sunny rule, is NOT a rule, its a guide-line. YOU the photographer have to judge, BY EYE how 'sunny' sunny is.

I reckoned it was 'fairly sunny' before I started... so I ought have erred from the 'rule' and upped my exposure a bit... how much?

F16/100/100 at the sky is about 1/3 of a stop under exposed according to the camera, BUT, look at the walls either side, one gray, one white. They are still a bit dark... they would have been darker still had I let the camera do its thing.... it was metering on middle of frame, the bright sky.....

What would I need to get the detail in those walls, or bring the right hand wall back to white? Possibly a full stop more?

Couple of clicks in Photoshop to see, and, one stop extra is still a little dull, but better, two, its looking more natural, but the sky has almost dissapeared. And if I was shooting in the shaddows? Well, might need even more.

SO.... back to the Leningrad readings; Knew at the beginning it wasn't going to be 'bang-on' f16-sunny, becouse it was only 'fairly' sunny.... I wouldn't have called this 'very' cloudy', though sky is a bit white, its not thick cloud; but F16-Sunny would suggest one extra stop for it.... incident readings from the meter agree with that, ambient readings suggest two..... BUT look at the subject....

USE YOUR EYE

F16-Sunny, gives you SOME 'guidance' what exposure settings may be apropriate for the conditions.

The Leningrad gave alternative 'guidance' for what exposure settings may be apropriate for the conditions.

The camera gave even more... and tried to use them.....

NONE of them were 'exactly' right.....

You have to USE YOUR EYE and make your OWN decissions.

And in THAT sense, the F16-Sunny rule offers as good guidance as a cheap and simple meter, and probably BETTER guidance than a very sophisticated and expensive integrated meter in the camera... that tries to force its suggestions on you.

ACCURACY means nothing here. You could have incredibly accurate lumins data of light levels all around the house, means absolutely nothing, and be absolutely no help what so EVER, unless you know what to DO with it, and can use it to make that judgement call as the photographer in charge!
 
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