FAO All Motorsport Photographers

Rather depends on what your commission/brief is really...

I'm sure someone like Mike Hoyer, working for Mr Ebrey, scarcely has time to grab a sandwich! I've seen them at work and they are busy, busy, busy.
 
Yeah i am not good enough for that, so i have no worries on that front lol.
 
CopeImages said:
I always preferred taking pics for myself. I don't think there's any better thing because YOU are the client, YOU are the decision maker on what's important and YOU can go where you want and take what you want when YOU want to.

Working for other people, means you have to take what they want, when they want it and at their price. I hated taking pictures of signs and hoardings with blurred bikes in front but that's what paid as that's what the client wanted.

Working for yourself means you can use all of your imagination and skill to seek out the shots that "float your boat". You can test yourself and your knowledge of your equipmewnt to the limit. The real downside to that (which I found out) is that those shots often don't sell, but if you aint interested in the cash aspect of sport snapping then you're alright Dal.

Be aware that working for someone else means that you might well be taken away from the action you actually aimed to get closer to (e.g Photographing spectators in the car parks whilst the racing's going on - not very thrilling).

Team work is second best. As you're taking shots for the team, and for all intents and purposes, working for the team, then you are often treated as part of the team.

Being a part of a close-knit team is like being part of a family and there's no better place to be. If you can get media access as a team snapper and you aren't interested in making any money then I'd take their hand off if you've been offered it.

Regards, Guy
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That is a brilliant insight Guy. I've been in contact with a team and they have said they will do whatever they can to assist me with a media pass in return for images. They have said that they are very interested in my proposal which is brilliant. They do other events outside of the main stream motorsport which interest me aswell so there is the basics for a great relationship ahead I feel.

I've been on the phone to motorsport vision about shooting for them and have been given some sound advice and have been told for main events I probably won't need any PLI but for club days I would do.

I'm just waiting for the application form to come through so I can get the ball rolling.

I need to contact the other tracks like thruxton etc to see what I need for those aswell, although I need to pick what events I can make first.

desantnik said:
Just be careful, because somewhere like Brands, being a paying spectator has the same restrictions on sale of images in just the same way as a media tog does (in fact most times its EXACTLY the same T&C's).
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Motorsport Vision have said that it might be different for selling images if your a team snapper although he wasn't entirely sure on this, and I'm guessing it would only be pics of that team. Will know more when the e-mail comes through.
 
desantnik said:
Rather depends on what your commission/brief is really...

I'm sure someone like Mike Hoyer, working for Mr Ebrey, scarcely has time to grab a sandwich! I've seen them at work and they are busy, busy, busy.
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thats not true. I saw mike at BGT media day having a picnic in pit lane ;)
 
Dal said:
Did you get a picture for proof :LOL:
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youre wish is my command

mike.jpg
 
The pit lane was empty because he was tucking into devil'ed egg and bombay sprout sarnies...
 
desantnik said:
To sell images to ANYONE you need a commercial photography licence AFAIK.

Providing images to the media for news reporting is allowed (either side of the fence) and they may pay you for those (I assume), everything else is commercial IMHO.

Thats how I read it from MSV and operate by it.

And yes, from 3 days of BSB, there is plenty of time to experiment with some shots I know for sure my commissioning editor won't want at all :D
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I had a chat with the Press office at Motorsport Vision today and they've told me you can sell any images from an event so long as it is after the event. Basically you can't sell images on site (without paying the circuit to do so). I've got this in an e-mail aswell from them.

Where have you seen that it states you can't sell images? I'm wondering if I've been told the right thing on the phone today.
 
Dal said:
I had a chat with the Press office at Motorsport Vision today and they've told me you can sell any images from an event so long as it is after the event. Basically you can't sell images on site (without paying the circuit to do so). I've got this in an e-mail aswell from them.

Where have you seen that it states you can't sell images? I'm wondering if I've been told the right thing on the phone today.
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thats quite interesting. I didnt know that.

grab a program (i throw mine away ehhem i mean recyle them) and check what it says under copyright on the 2nd or 3rd page.. I think it says something there (assuming we are still talking about spectators)
 
Dal said:
Where have you seen that it states you can't sell images? I'm wondering if I've been told the right thing on the phone today.
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Back of the ticket at a MSV circuit....

If you aren't season accredited for a circuit or series, you get the same ticket, so the T&C's apply just the same...
 
Hi there,

I have worked with a media pass for about 2 years now. I tend to cover mainly GT and Sportscar racing across the UK for an overseas publication. The job is wide and varied and they give me a pretty free reign.

If it is an event like the British GT then I will supply a selection of photographs (mainly single cars and race action along with the odd pit lane/driver shot) and also write a race report. There deadline is a bit more flexible than some of the UK publications (i.e race report for this weekends BGT round will be typed up tonight) and be published by them this week (after it has been translated).

If it is an event such as the FIA GT then they will send there staff over to attend the race and write the race report and I will supply the photographs. So far I have covered everything from classic rallying to the Le Mans Series for them and I love every minute. I suspect from reading the views of other togs on here that working for someone like Autosport might change my opinion drastically.

So the burning question from you all, does it pay well ?
Lets just say I cover my costs (travel, PLI etc), nothing more nothing less.

I had very low expectations of earnings from turning my hobby into something more and so far it has just about lived up to my expectations.

However the atmosphere of an event like the FIA GT at Silverstone where you can wander around the pits, take pictures from the pitlane and get close to a GT1 car as it passes you at more than 180mph just because you are wearing a media vest are to me priceless.

Regards

Tim
 
Some interesting points on this thread, and I wholly agree that most people seem to think that because they have bought a nice camera that automatically qualifies them to indulge their hobby on the other side of the fence to the spectators. It just doesn't work like that.

Oh and FWIW I made more money shooting athletics over the last 12 months than I ever made shooting motorsports over 5 years :LOL:
 
badgerbaiter said:
thats quite interesting. I didnt know that.

grab a program (i throw mine away ehhem i mean recyle them) and check what it says under copyright on the 2nd or 3rd page.. I think it says something there (assuming we are still talking about spectators)
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i had a read yesterday whilst waiting for the F3 race to restart (much to the amusement of a few photogs around me!....) from what i could make out you can do bugger all with your images (as a paying speccy) apart from look at them yourself (i guess even posting on a forum such as this would technically be in breach of the rules as well) everything else i think the oulton programme used the phrase 'anything that could be contrived as dealing and distribution' is forbidden.

i dont have the programme with me or id copy it out
 
badgerbaiter said:
thats quite interesting. I didnt know that.

grab a program (i throw mine away ehhem i mean recyle them) and check what it says under copyright on the 2nd or 3rd page.. I think it says something there (assuming we are still talking about spectators)
Click to expand...

desantnik said:
Back of the ticket at a MSV circuit....

If you aren't season accredited for a circuit or series, you get the same ticket, so the T&C's apply just the same...
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Well this is strange, as what I have in an e-mail is different to whats on the back of the ticket I still have.

This is what I got e-mailed from the Press Office at Motorsport Vision.
In regard to selling your photos, you are free to do so after each event, but will need to pay a trade site fee to MSV if you are selling them at the event – the person to contact in this case is BLAH BLAH at MSV, email Blah.Blah@motorsportvision.co.uk. I hope this helps.
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Dal said:
This is what I got e-mailed from the Press Office at Motorsport Vision.
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That will not be for large events, where paying spectators are forbidden to sell photos or video.

You can't even sell or (technically speaking) host online (Youtube etc) video footage from your own car on a trackday.

And the onsite fee is quite large, Brands was around £300 but that was a while ago.
 
For larger (National and International) events, you normally find that there's a series commercial rights holder and they "own" the commercial rights to that series where ever it's held. That takes the control away from the "local" circuits so your email from MSV might only cover smaller events at their "premises".

I'm 99.9% certain that for something like BSB, you'll need to speak to the "commercial rights holders" (CRH) about selling to the public on or after the event. It just so happens that the CRH for BSB is MSVR so you're already halfway there to getting your answer on that one. For MotoGP, it'd be Dorna SPa.
 
i think they have missunderstood and thought you were asking about selling photos at the track rather than what you can do with your photos afterwards.

When i first started i did some BTCC and i kept my photos on fotopic. Fotopic also allows you to sell the photos (which wasnt my intention). The BTCC press officer saw it and threatened to withdraw my pass. Luckily he understood when I explained that it was just how fotopic works, but I took them off anyway to be on the safe side.
 
I thought it was a bit odd but this is the second time I've been told this so I will have to check again.

I read the Terms and Conditions for the Media Pass and they are pretty confusing, I really hate all this legal jargon. They should be forced to write it in simple english so everyone can understand it.

Badgerbaiter, I don't think they were confused though as they have told me I can sell them after the event, but like you and several others have pointed out the T&C's for the events say different.
 
If you don't understand the T&C's, post them up and I'll try to explain it bit by bit.
 
desantnik said:
If you don't understand the T&C's, post them up and I'll try to explain it bit by bit.
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I can understand some of it, but like most T&C's there is so much jargon that it's difficult to understand what the hell they mean lol.

This is the T&C, its from the 1 Event Media Accreditation Application form

1. No claim of any kind arising from the negligence, injudicious act, error or omission or otherwise of any Accredited Person shall be
made by, or on behalf any Accredited Person or on behalf of any dependants of such Accredited Person against MSV, the organisers,
any instructor(s), driver(s), rider(s), team(s), marshal(s), guest(s), spectator(s) or any company or organisation connected with the event
(including without limitation those involved with the preparation or maintenance, or the supply of component parts of vehicles used at
the event) (each a “Relevant Person”) or any of their respective employees, agents or assistants.

2. Neither MSV Group nor any other Relevant Person shall be liable for any loss, damage, claims, costs, expenses, injury or demands
suffered directly or indirectly by any Accredited Person (or their employer, if applicable) as a consequence of the attendance at the
Event of such Accredited Person. Nothing in this form shall exclude any Relevant Person’s liability for personal injury or death caused
by its negligence or for fraud.

3. The Accredited Person and their employer (if any) shall jointly and severally indemnify and hold harmless MSV Group and other
Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result of any breach of these Conditions.

Grant of Accreditation and Use of Media Pass

4. MSV may grant or reject any application for Accreditation in its absolute discretion. Once granted, MSV may revoke Accreditation in
its absolute discretion without providing reasons and without liability to the Accredited Person or their employer (if any).

5. Media Passes may only be collected in person by the Accredited Person. Proof of identity in the form of photo ID may be required.
Any Accreditation granted by MSV is personal to the Accredited Person and may not be transferred or assigned to any other person.
The Media Pass remains the property of MSV and shall be returned on request.

6. Media Passes must be worn and clearly displayed at all times whilst an Accredited Person attends at the Venue.

7. Accredited Persons must not use their accreditation for any commercial purpose (including without limitation selling or offering for
sale any items, leafleting or marketing) without the prior written consent of MSV.

8. In the event of breach of any Condition, the Accredited Person shall immediately return their Media Pass to MSV and MSV shall be
entitled at its discretion to remove the Accredited Person from the Venue without liability to the Accredited Person or their employer (if
any).

9. The Events are public events and MSV may use, free of charge and without notice, names, voices, images and likeness of
Accredited Persons in any media for the purposes of or in conjunction with the promotion or production of coverage of the relevant
Event or the promotion of MSV.

Copyright and Licence

10. Accredited Persons must not prejudice or infringe the copyright or other intellectual property right owned by, or licensed to MSV or
any other person or organisation officially involved with the Event. In particular (but without limitation) no Accredited Person shall
themselves, or permit any person to:
(a) take, produce, record, broadcast or transmit by any means (including without limitation radio, television, internet, mobile or any other
form of media know known or hereafter invented) any moving visual and/or audio-visual materials, audio-only materials (including
commentary), data or results of or concerning the Event or any race or other element of the Event including without limitation the
Venue, any race, or any attendees at the Event without the prior written consent of MSV in each case; or
(b) sell, license, distribute or otherwise publish, disseminate or reproduce for a commercial purpose (as distinct from editorial purposes),
whether in whole or in part, any still or moving audio-visual, audio-only or visual-only recordings (including without limitation
photographs) made inside any Venue without the prior written consent of MSV in each case; or
(c) take, produce or publish any photograph of (or still picture derived from) any moving visual film or image of any aspect of the Event,
or any still picture or frame of any television, video or monitor screen depicting any aspect of the Event, or any picture taken from a
moving audio-visual signal (including without limitation television and on-board camera signals).

11. In the case of photographers, MSV may require an Accredited Person to provide examples of their photographs taken at any Event.
If requested, these photographs shall be provided by the Accredited Person within 5 working days of the original request in a format to
be agreed between the Accredited Person and MSV. MSV is hereby granted a royalty-free worldwide license for the use of such
photographs in MSV event programmes, MSV websites and MSV advertising in any media. Any other usage of such photographs by
MSV shall be subject to receipt of express prior consent from the Accredited Person. The photographs remain the intellectual property
of the Accredited Person or his/her employer, where applicable. The Accredited Person warrants that such use by MSV shall not
infringe the copyright or any other intellectual property right of any person, including without limitation the Accredited Person’s employer
(if applicable).
 
Hi there,

As in understand it selling pics is a strict no no :nono:

I am covering an event this weekend and have been told by two different people from the race series that the drivers/teams will probably be interested in buying pictures, "but the circuit owners generally no longer allow you to ‘tout’ your pictures around the paddock". Apparently this became more obvious last year because the circuit owners see it as a retail activity that others have to pay for.

I would never dream of jeopardising my media accreditation walking up and down the pit lane flogging my pictures. The privilege of a media pass is worth more to me than the couple of quid I would get selling a picture to a driver/team.

Regards

Tim
 
autofocus said:
Hi there,

As in understand it selling pics is a strict no no :nono:

I am covering an event this weekend and have been told by two different people from the race series that the drivers/teams will probably be interested in buying pictures, "but the circuit owners generally no longer allow you to ‘tout’ your pictures around the paddock". Apparently this became more obvious last year because the circuit owners see it as a retail activity that others have to pay for.

I would never dream of jeopardising my media accreditation walking up and down the pit lane flogging my pictures. The privilege of a media pass is worth more to me than the couple of quid I would get selling a picture to a driver/team.

Regards

Tim
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Ah, the way you've put that might make more sense to what I've been told. If I give a business card to someone at an event then that might be technically selling at that event, but if they find my site to buy an image then that is selling after the event which is what they have told me is allowed.

It's all very confusing.
 
Dal said:
Ah, the way you've put that might make more sense to what I've been told. If I give a business card to someone at an event then that might be technically selling at that event, but if they find my site to buy an image then that is selling after the event which is what they have told me is allowed.

It's all very confusing.
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Hi there,

The problem is when someone approaches you after the event by e-mail, how do you know that they are who they say they are ?

Could it be the circuit checking up on you ???? it sounds far fetched, but it does happen.

Regards

Tim
 
I've e-mailed the press office back to ask for clarification on the selling of images. I've asked them on the basis of images taken at a BTCC meeting. If they come back and say its still ok to sell any images then I can't see there being an issue as I'll have confirmation from the circuit that it's ok to do so. The T&C's do say that it can be done with the written permission from the circuit (something like that anyway), so an e-mail is that permission.

I've never sold an image yet but I just want to make sure I don't get into trouble if someone wish's to buy a photo in the future.
 
Dal said:
I've never sold an image yet but I just want to make sure I don't get into trouble if someone wish's to buy a photo in the future.
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It's always best to check Dal. Media passes are difficult to get hold of and it only takes one wrong move to have it removed for good.

Alot of the decisions re. passes are made on the nature of your approach, if you're known to the circuit/organisation, your published work etc so it's very easy to be "blacklisted" as there's no hard or fast rule dictating how the selection process is run.
 
CopeImages said:
It's always best to check Dal. Media passes are difficult to get hold of and it only takes one wrong move to have it removed for good.

Alot of the decisions re. passes are made on the nature of your approach, if you're known to the circuit/organisation, your published work etc so it's very easy to be "blacklisted" as there's no hard or fast rule dictating how the selection process is run.
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I always like to double check stuff and get it confirmed in writing, I guess that’s because of the job that I do aswell, I work in architecture and you have to get everything in writing or it can easily bite you in the ass.

The person I spoke to has said that because I’ll be shooting for a team I’ll only be able to apply for a one-event pass and then I’ll have to submit photograph’s to MSV after that event to be able to apply for a season pass. This is because I don’t have any published work.

Your right about them being difficult to get, and I sure as hell don’t want to get black listed. I’ve been very careful with how I have approached the situation and how I’ve put myself across. I’m really not too bothered if they come back and say you can’t sell any images at all (as I doubt I’ll be selling them anyway), just so long as I know that. I’d hate to sell images after being told it’s ok then have a media pass taken away because that person got it wrong. This is why I hate T&C’s so much as even the simplest thing becomes confusing to understand.
 
Dal said:
7. Accredited Persons must not use their accreditation for any commercial purpose (including without limitation selling or offering for
sale any items, leafleting or marketing) without the prior written consent of MSV.
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I've always understood that bit to mean you cant sell your photos, but reading it again I would say I'm wrong. That bit just means you cant do any commercial work when you are there. I.E. using your pass to gain entry to the circuit then start handing out flyers or selling hotdogs (because they charge people to do that).

So, as far as I can see you can sell your photos to anyone after the event. But you cant sell or take any video.
 
Well reading this thread has properly put me off spending a lot of time this year working to get a media pass. I guess I've been looking at it from the other side of the fence thinking it's a land of milk and honey when you can shoot from pretty much where you want and you're getting paid doing something you enjoy. Now most of you have said you don't get paid much, if anything, and half the time it's not even that enjoyable :LOL:
 
RichardC27 said:
Well reading this thread has properly put me off spending a lot of time this year working to get a media pass. I guess I've been looking at it from the other side of the fence thinking it's a land of milk and honey when you can shoot from pretty much where you want and you're getting paid doing something you enjoy. Now most of you have said you don't get paid much, if anything, and half the time it's not even that enjoyable :LOL:
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not very many msport photographers do get paid, and only a very few are full timers.
and the way things are falling apart this season i'll be one of the ones not getting paid, and if that happens you will see a 40d and 70-200mm going cheap in the for sale section
 
badgerbaiter said:
...70-200mm going cheap in the for sale section
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Sorry to hear that mate, the general tone of most of the professional motorsport lot has been very negative of late. It's something I keep toying with in my mind about whether I am a) good enough to turn at least semi-pro, and b) would I enjoy it as much? Togging is a hobby to me, and I'm not sure I actually want to turn it into a job.

On a more serious note, how cheap is cheap? :LOL:
 
badgerbaiter said:
not very many msport photographers do get paid, and only a very few are full timers.
and the way things are falling apart this season i'll be one of the ones not getting paid, and if that happens you will see a 40d and 70-200mm going cheap in the for sale section
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better go through all the posts where you mention you dropped it.
 
if i really wanted to put people off turning pro, i can do it by mentioning that most motorsport photographers spend as much time infront of a laptop keywording all their shots than they do actually taking them. Keywording is about as boring as it gets.
 
badgerbaiter said:
lower than £0? blimey :)

(just getting my revenge for you previous post ;) )
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lol touche.

One of the magazines I supply was involved an a race series and were doing a 2 page feature every month. I supplied the pictures and they paid quite well (and promptly which was nice). This year, they're not involved so a smaller feature, recession etc., means they're not willing to pay so much. :(
 
andrewc said:
lol touche.

One of the magazines I supply was involved an a race series and were doing a 2 page feature every month. I supplied the pictures and they paid quite well (and promptly which was nice). This year, they're not involved so a smaller feature, recession etc., means they're not willing to pay so much. :(
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i'd be inclined to tell 'em to shove it.. Especially if the new price doesnt cover your costs.
or do what i did when my landlord told me she wanted to talk about increasing the rent. I told her i want to talk about decreasing the rent. Needless to say it staid the same.
 
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