First successful dark room print

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Nebular89

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As a follow on from my previous thread I just made my first print on the Durst m301 colour.
Semi successfully. I did not have any paper developer and couldn’t wait to try it out so I used a 1:50 rodinal dilution that seemed to work fairly well.
It’s been 6-7 years since I last made any prints with another durst I had, the m605, and it took me a very long time to make any progress. 1hr 30 and probably 10 sheets of 5x7 paper.
I think I will have to invest in some under the lens filters though. Either I’ve forgotten how long it takes to expose a print or the m301 colour head doesn’t give out a lot of contrast but this was made with the magenta and yellow colours maxed out at a time of 40sec. I wanted to try to do split grading but that went out the window fast. I’m going to buy a lot of 5x7 paper and go back to this print and try split grading again to get a feel for the colour head before I look into filters though. It’s just a shame the numbers on the head don’t relate to the ilford contrast filter table. Would make following tutorials a lot easier IMG_5244.jpeg
 
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I can't attach a pdf, so you'll have to locate it. Harman have a data sheet that gives the settings for Durst units. The link gives a direct download, and I can't copy the link to paste it here. Sorry.
 
StephenM said:
I can't attach a pdf, so you'll have to locate it. Harman have a data sheet that gives the settings for Durst units. The link gives a direct download, and I can't copy the link to paste it here. Sorry.
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I’ll hunt it down :)
 
If all else fails, I can email it (already found I can't attach a pdf to a PM) or stick it on my OneDrive and post the link.
 
'Fraid so. I'm reasonably sure I have a full list somewhere, but I won't be able to look until tomorrow.
 
StephenM said:
'Fraid so. I'm reasonably sure I have a full list somewhere, but I won't be able to look until tomorrow.
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Cheers :). I’m sure it’s just a case of getting used to it again. I was just thrown off by how long the exposures were. All the videos online I’d seen achieved a pretty high contrast with a medium filter and 20 sec exposure or so. Worst case I’ll get some filters and won’t use the colour head
 
StephenM said:
'Fraid so. I'm reasonably sure I have a full list somewhere, but I won't be able to look until tomorrow.
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On a side note if we assume that the yellow and magenta on 100 isn’t the equivalent of a grade 5 filter and say maybe a 3.5 would me using it as a 3.5 and just increasing the exposure increase the contrast to the same as a grade 5? Going from 40 sec to say 50-1min
 
Also how much different would using rodinal have made? I should probably wait until the paper developer arrives before trying to change anything really
 
I haven't looked into the properties of Rodinal as a print developer; but as a film developer higher dilutions are used to reduce contrast - typically 1:25 or 1:50 for normal films, and 1:100 for Tech Pan. From memory, when I used Johnson's Universol developer, the dilution was 1:3 for prints and 1:7 for film - but that's relying on my memory for something I haven't done since the 1950s. I'll check the figures tomorrow. Based on that, I'd suggest that your use of Rodinal at that dilution would reduce contrast.

More exposure will only give a darker print, and increase the probability that you'll "snatch" it from the developer before development is complete. As with film, extra development gives extra contrast.
 
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StephenM said:
I haven't looked into the properties of Rodinal as a print develooer; but as a film developer higher dilutions are used to reduce contrast - typically 1:25 or 1:50 for normal films, and 1:100 for Tech Pan. From memory, when I used Johnson's Universol developer, the dilution was 1:3 for prints and 1:7 for film - but that's relying on my memory for something I haven't done since the 1950s. I'll check the figures tomorrow. Based on that, I'd suggest that your use of Rodinal at that dilution would reduce contrast.

More exposure will only give a darker print, and increase the probability that you'll "snatch" it from the developer before development is complete. As with film, extra development gives extra contrast.
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So it could be the rodinal that’s reducing the contrast. It would exhaust far quicker too which would also reduce blacks wouldn’t it? Maybe that’s what did it. I’ve got some paper developer in the post so I’ll do the print again with the same settings and see the difference…if any.

Right ok. So unless the paper developer fixes the contrast issue I’d have to get filters to get more than contrast then the head allows.
I’d probably get a set of tray filters and just hold them under the lens, £95 for a set of under lens filters is a bit rich for me at the moment
 
Silly question, but is the developer temperature too low? That also affects things.
 
On times, when a new developer was introduced back in the 1960s, the review gave its Watkins factor as 6. This is a measure of how long the development time should be to get full contrast - if the Watkins factor is W and the image starts to appear after x secs, development time is Wx sec. This figure won't be true for Rodinal (except by chance), but it serves to indicate that complete development can take a time. Usually about 2 minutes.
 
StephenM said:
Silly question, but is the developer temperature too low? That also affects things.
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It’s possible it wasn’t to be honest. As it was just rodinal I just judged the temperature by touch. When I develop film I can usually get it to 18-22 degrees without a thermometer. Could well have been a few things contributing to the print being a little off then.
I’ll wait until I get some paper developer and do the same settings as the last print. if the contrast is still low then it has to be colour head. I think I have the house to myself Saturday night so I’ll have a while to try it out
 
StephenM said:
Silly question, but is the developer temperature too low? That also affects things.
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Did I make a silly error? So I just checked the conversion table for the colour head and the filters and I saw that the higher the contrast the filter the more the yellow to magenta ratio is reduced. For some reason I had it in my head that maximum yellow and maximum magenta would be the highest contrast. According to the table maximum yellow is a 00 filter with no magenta and a 5 filter is maximum magenta with no yellow. I wonder if using them both on maximum was messing with the contrast in some way
 
horrocks said:
You'll find it so much easier to get a set of below the lens multigrade filters. I've been through the same journey quite recently.
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I will eventually. Just need to make sure it’s something I’m going to keep on doing then spending the money won’t seem too bad.
Does the under lens filter kit come with the attachment to hold the filters? And if so is it universal? The enlarger I have just has a screw in lens, there doesn’t appear to be a board of any kind
 
You'll need the holder, and not all the s/h kits come with it. The filters will be no use to you without it.

I highly recommend that you try to pick one up. The problem is that you'll become discouraged if you don't spend that money. If you then decide that the darkroom isn't for you, the kit will easily sell on.
 
horrocks said:
You'll need the holder, and not all the s/h kits come with it. The filters will be no use to you without it.

I highly recommend that you try to pick one up. The problem is that you'll become discouraged if you don't spend that money. If you then decide that the darkroom isn't for you, the kit will easily sell on.
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That’s a pain. I thought they would have being £95.

Yea I’ll definitely get one if I find the loose filters easier to use than the colour head. I preferred the colour head when I had the m605 but that correlated to the ilford conversion table, this one would need more trial and error
 
horrocks said:
I've got a colour M605, but I still couldn't really make it work with the filters in the head. I think it would drive you half mad.
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No? To be fair I’ve never used actual filters so I’ve nothing to compare it to but the prints always looked good to me. Can they fade?
 
I use colour head filters in my Durst M305 and LPL C7700 Pro and for Maximum Contrast you use maximum MAGENTA and NO Yellow but I cannot get a Grade 5 at all. Don;t use RODINAL for PRINTS -- totally wrong Formula !
 
pentaxpete said:
I use colour head filters in my Durst M305 and LPL C7700 Pro and for Maximum Contrast you use maximum MAGENTA and NO Yellow but I cannot get a Grade 5 at all. Don;t use RODINAL for PRINTS -- totally wrong Formula !
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Yea I think I messed it up!
I’ve just got some paper developer in the post so I’m just about to try it again
 
I think in the long run using filters will make it simpler. I had more success today using only the magenta, there was less guess work. I still wasn’t happy with the print though but I ran out of paper before I could get it right. Magenta on 60 at 6 seconds had the right amount of detail but not enough contrast, at 70 the contrast was far too high. When I get more paper on Saturday I’ll start with the magenta on 60 for 6 sec and gradually increase the yellow.
It’s a shame the under lens filter kit is so expensive. Be worth it in the long run but I have to shift a guitar before I can justify anymore photography purchases.
 
You could just hold the filters under the Lens? Unless you’re dodging or burning then you need both hands.
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About split grading, I find it too complicated to work out times. I just use the desired filter to adjust contrast and then I dodge and burn.
 
Marino said:
You could just hold the filters under the Lens? Unless you’re dodging or burning then you need both hands.
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About split grading, I find it too complicated to work out times. I just use the desired filter to adjust contrast and then I dodge and burn.
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That’s what I will be doing when the filters arrive. It’s just the full grade student set so no half steps for now. I’d rather get the under the lens kit at some point.

I’ve seen a couple of videos that sound simple enough in principle. I won’t attempt to try it until I get proper filters.
I tried dodging and burning a long time ago and I hated it. To be fair the print I tried it on was fairly complicated. I need to try it again with a photo that has more defined edges, a sea scape with the horizon or something
 
Marino said:
You could just hold the filters under the Lens? Unless you’re dodging or burning then you need both hands.
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About split grading, I find it too complicated to work out times. I just use the desired filter to adjust contrast and then I dodge and burn.
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I have another question. Are the whites/highlights determined by the exposure more than the filter? Or does it work like digital where increasing the contrast slider boosts both the whites and the blacks?
In my head a contrast filter blocks the light that would burn in the whites/highlights but allows the blacks to come through making them darker? But if that was the case couldn’t you have just one contrast filter and change the exposure time to taste?
 
Finally made the print as I want it! After some experimenting I actually used a lot less of the magenta and increased the time. Went from 8 sec with 60 magenta to 11 sec with 20 magenta.
IMG_5259.jpeg
 
StephenM said:
If all else fails, I can email it (already found I can't attach a pdf to a PM) or stick it on my OneDrive and post the link.
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If you use windows 'snip ans sketch' and save the image it will be saved as a Jpeg so you can e mail it that way. Snip and Sketch does not care what the original format is so very useful.
 
Nebular89 said:
No? To be fair I’ve never used actual filters so I’ve nothing to compare it to but the prints always looked good to me. Can they fade?
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Yes and not always equally too. Dichroic filters in a colour head on an enlarger are generally thought to be fade proof and have never found them
Nebular89 said:
Finally made the print as I want it! After some experimenting I actually used a lot less of the magenta and increased the time. Went from 8 sec with 60 magenta to 11 sec with 20 magenta.
View attachment 415059
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Yes they can fade and not always in equal proportions. The dichroic filters in a colour head enlarger because the are not dyes are thought to be fade proof and to be honest I have never found anything else to prove different.
 
Nebular89 said:
Finally made the print as I want it! After some experimenting I actually used a lot less of the magenta and increased the time. Went from 8 sec with 60 magenta to 11 sec with 20 magenta.
View attachment 415059
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This is better than the 1st print you uploaded but on my screen the top right hand side on the mans jacket has a slight warm tone to it which is usually a sign of insufficient washing after being through the fixer bath. A B&W print on resin coated paper needs about 3-4 mins washing under running water. Compare the tone around the man's head and shoulders to the area directly opposite, where the lady walking towards you and the gentleman to her left are pure B&W.
Even the lady to the left of the man that looks warm tone, is a good B&W not warm tone.

Addendum. As I mentioned in another post never judge a print on a computer this on my newer one shows the image to be lighter (and better) than on the other one but the warm tone is now even more markedly visible.
 
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