Free Photography Website?

[On the Huh]

I’m still working on my website at the moment. Think I’ve finally chosen the right name?

Anyhow, I was a shoot and burn Wedding Photographer for a short time aimed at the lower end of the market.

I was never satisfied with this, and felt I wasn’t producing pictures as good as my peers.

Never had any complaints from clients though! All have been happy with what they got. But I wasn’t happy.

I felt too rushed, too much thumbling about and started to lose shots by rushing, to save face. A case of lacking in expirence!

The #1 thing is to practice, practice and practice some more.

Due to personal circumstances, I’m not in a position to charge for photography, plus at the moment I am happy to do this as a hobby, (in a way it makes it more enjoyable…. No Pressure!)

Can peeps please critique my website? In particular the copy. Good or bad (I’ll take it all on board). Hopefully, you can get it on the new default domain, which is www.shoots4fun.com If not try www.warriorphotography.co.uk

I've posted in this section rather than the computer/website section
as I find it more appropiate for what I'm asking, I think!

 

[billybob99]

Hi just had a look and for me the home page is blank no pics only the menu on the left side, which if correct and I was a client it wouldn't be inticing me to look around. The names ok but if you start to charge is it suitable? And finally where are the pictures to showcase your work. Sorry if this sounds harsh

edit was looking on my ipod touch and the slideshow must be flash so it dosent come up

 

[johnb]

There is a bit too much blank space to the left on the pages & is the type size too small?

HTH

John

 

[woodbutcher]

Both links work for me.
Unlike the previous 2 posters I don't find too much space to the left or no pictures. I am viewing at 1280x1024 though as I don't have a widescreen monitor so that is probably the blank space issue.
I was a only a little disappointed in the way the pictures display. They appear to change size and aspect where I would prefer them to be uniform throughout. I feel that way I can overlook there are no feet in the images and it is a limitation of the displaying software cropping to fit. They all appear to be wedding/engagement too with no examples of family lifestyle.
I'm not the grammar police (in-fact I struggle with English) but is this the right kind of 'to' at the end of this sentence and apostrophe missing from don't? .....but you don't have to ruin your dress if you dont want too.
These pointers are meant to be nit picky to help you iron out any problems viewers encounter. I think you've done an excellent job and if I lived anywhere near Ipswich I would maybe take you up on your generous offer. Unfortunately I did my wedding day 25 years ago and without the family lifestyle examples I can see no use of your services for me.

 

[Arkady]

Sorry Nige, but do you seriously expect those of us struggling to put food on the table with our photography to be eager to help you out here?
In effect you've set yourself up in direct competition to me and others and charging nothing.

 

[On the Huh]

Thanks Andrew and John will look into those problems you mention.

Thanks woodbutcher, very helpful, will change grammar later. The site, atm is just an idea, and will be adding different pics at some stage and a gallery perhaps and get them sized correctly.

Rob, the main reason why I posted in this forum rather than the websites etc forum is so I can get a prospective of what pro photographers think, so thanks for your views.
If many all come to the same conclusion as yourself, which I suspect may happen, then the idea may be scrapped. Perhaps I should just go to MM or Purestorm or the local college to find people to practice with.

 

[neil_1980]

Hmm, no experience of wedding/portrait photography etc but had a look at the site anyway so heres my views as an outsider so to speak.

My first thoughts are...

1. Whats the catch?
2. If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.
3. If it is genuinely free then it probably wont be very good so probably a complete waste of time.


Personally I'd be inclined to use someone who was cheap over someone who was free?

 

[Arkady]

Thanks Andrew and John will look into those problems you mention.

Thanks woodbutcher, very helpful, will change grammar later. The site, atm is just an idea, and will be adding different pics at some stage and a gallery perhaps and get them sized correctly.

Rob, the main reason why I posted in this forum rather than the websites etc forum is so I can get a prospective of what pro photographers think, so thanks for your views.
If many all come to the same conclusion as yourself, which I suspect may happen, then the idea may be scrapped. Perhaps I should just go to MM or Purestorm or the local college to find people to practice with.

No offence intended, but money's tight and I'm a bit tetchy...

 

[Mike Jackson]

I wouldn't blame any pro getting the hump over someone offering services for free. Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean that the images have no value. To have the free service advertised on a flash looking website just rubs salt into the wound.

 

[Richard King]

free until there is a portfolio.... why else would the OP be specifically targeting such commercially lucrative shoots, there are 1001 other things to shoot for fun

 

[On the Huh]

My first thoughts are...

1. Whats the catch?
2. If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.
3. If it is genuinely free then it probably wont be very good so probably a complete waste of time.
Personally I'd be inclined to use someone who was cheap over someone who was free?

Thanks neil for your thoughts. I wonder if it’s a mistake using ‘Free’. Perhaps I should stress more: ‘TFP/CD’
If the majority of the general public think in the same way, than I guess I’m wasting my time.

I wouldn't blame any pro getting the hump over someone offering services for free. Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean that the images have no value. To have the free service advertised on a flash looking website just rubs salt into the wound.

Mike, going by what Rob has said, you’re probably right. The website is just a basic Clikpic site though.

free until there is a portfolio.... why else would the OP be specifically targeting such commercially lucrative shoots, there are 1001 other things to shoot for fun

Richard, indeed you are right, there are lots of other things I could shoot for fun. I do prefer shooting people though.
And yes, I hope perhaps one day to charge. I don’t want to practise with paying clients though. :shake:

 

[On the Huh]

I thought I posted this in Talk Photography with the hope to get critique on the idea rather than the technical side of the website, has it been moved?

Notice that no one has replied since being moved. :shrug:

 

[david1701]

bin the idea

work for free but have the site with prices, that way you can very quickly decide to charge someone if you want to, this way you can't

 

[SimonTALM]

The website looks good for a completely free service - it's better than many people's websites that charge for the service.

But the idea stinks IMO and you will regret it if you ever get to the stage you want / need to charge for your services. I could add it does nothing for the long term benefit of the industry but that's a whole different debate

bin the idea

work for free but have the site with prices, that way you can very quickly decide to charge someone if you want to, this way you can't

Certainly agree with if having normal "living wage" prices on your website even if you discount them 100%.

To re-enforce the point the latest edition of Digital Photo Pro has an article about a chap getting help from Catherine Connor (used to work for Annabel Williams) who has started cheap when they were a P/T pro (£300 shoot and burn weddings and £100 portrait shoots with DVD of all images) and is now strugling to make the move to F/T Pro as they don't have enough work to stop the "main job" at their current prices.

Of course if you can't be seen to "potentially" be making money for whatever your personal circumstances are then use the web site as a portfolio site and use Social Networking to get your work.

 

[CaptainPenguin]

Batten down the hatches because if you get anything like the stick I did for mentioning I supply lower league footy shots to the papers for free you are in for a torrid time,just to throw ny ten pennerth in I could understand you aiming at the real budget market but why with weddings do it totally for free

 

[chip]

Nigel, if I hadn't previously encountered you in another forum and already formed the opinion you were a decent bloke my post here would read something like this.......

WTF are you doing??? How would you like it if I set up a stall or shop near your business and started giving away the very same products you are trying to sell.... for NOTHING!??

As others have said above.... If I were a member of the public, I would be VERY suspicious of you and your motives. I think you would be far better practising on family and friends, and then, charging a fee to shoot Joe public.

Chris.

 

[On the Huh]

David and Simon. Thank for your comments and ideas, will be doing a re-think.

Nigel Cliff. I want peiple to give their honest opinions. I suspect that I may get a bit of stick, but I need to know what others think. I am not offering a Wedding Package BTW. I know the site may be a bit mis-leading at the mo with the home page slideshow.

Nigel, if I hadn't previously encountered you in another forum and already formed the opinion you were a decent bloke my post here would read something like this.......

WTF are you doing??? How would you like it if I set up a stall or shop near your business and started giving away the very same products you are trying to sell.... for NOTHING!??

As others have said above.... If I were a member of the public, I would be VERY suspicious of you and your motives. I think you would be far better practising on family and friends, and then, charging a fee to shoot Joe public.

Chris.

Hi Chris. Trying to remember who you are. You must have used a different name than Chip on the other forum?

You will know I have shot weddings before. I guess I lost my confidence a bit, and wasn't happy with what I was producing and reluctantly gave it up. I've second shot a couple of times since, but again felt I wasn't performing to my full potential.

I have always been honest with my experience to clients. Always had insurance and back-up gear. I feel the need to practice and regain some confidence. The only time I shoot at the moment is with my 8 year old son. .....Last time was last month, photographing mushrooms in Rendlesham Forest

I need to practice with shooting people. I was hoping the website doesn't make me look VERY suspicious as I said I wish to practice my craft.
I am a decent bloke and if I am going to practice on people, then they shouldn't be paying me. I was hoping that was the kind of thing the website conveyed, but obviously not. :shrug:

As I said on a previous post, I could do the normal thing and use model Mayhem etc. As for Family and friends etc. This would be where the website will be targeted in the beginning, but also family and friends of family and friends, if you get what I mean.

Anyway, as mentioned earlier in the thread, this is just an idea at the moment. If it's going to cause upset amongst my peers then it will be scrapped, hence posting this thread in the first place.

 

[chip]

Hi Chris. Trying to remember who you are. You must have used a different name than Chip on the other forum?

I used to be on the SWPP forum (as Chris Hill) but, sshhhhh...... I try to keep that quiet

 

[woodbutcher]

If it's going to cause upset amongst my peers then it will be scrapped, hence posting this thread in the first place.

This to me proves you are a one of the good guys and deserve to get the answers you are looking for from this forum whether from pro or otherwise.

I can see how people think you are setting your stall out at a level that will be almost impossible to advance far from. I also think some people have seen the words wedding and free and not bothered to see that you don't infact offer free weddings and that your engagement shots are a supplement to people's hired pro shooter not a replacement.

I find David and Simon's advice the most sensible suggestion so far but I would ask if you need a pricing structure on your site at all? What does it serve by being there? Who is just going to wander along and find themselves looking at it? If you are using social networking as a way of spreading the word that you are after free models to shoot, a little explanation about your experience and goals is all that is needed, apart from your gallery of examples.
Can't imagine how much traffic you are going to generate without paying out for google adwords or similar. I would think most if not all visitors would be there at the bequest of you, your friends or your friends friends. :shrug:

 

[On the Huh]

Wood butcher, I will hand out cards to family and friends, give them a shoot, hope that they would be over the moon with what they get and supply my details to their extended family and friends if you get what I mean.

Chris, I remember you now. You are one of my peers and always took on board your thoughts and opinions. Glad to see you posting on here. Do you think I should srap this idea? Or change the stratedgy of the idea? All I want to do is get my confidence back and shoot people, at the same time making my skills second nature, rather than having to think and thumble about. This is something which only comes with practice, practice and more practice according to many whichever forum you're on.

 

[Richard King]

I thought I posted this in Talk Photography with the hope to get critique on the idea rather than the technical side of the website, has it been moved?

Notice that no one has replied since being moved. :shrug:

to be frank - you are on the wrong forum - If you go to hitched, open a suppliers account, they will bite your arm off

 

[On the Huh]

to be frank - you are on the wrong forum - If you go to hitched, open a suppliers account, they will bite your arm off

..I don't really want to do weddings again untill I have improved my skills and regained some confidence. :shrug:

 

[swanseamale47]

Nigel several things about this cause me concerns.
One is if your not charging then presumably you don't have any insurance, what are you going to do if something happens at a wedding, say a guest trips over your bag or something?
Another issue is what happens if somebody doesn't like your work after the wedding?. I know your doing them for nothing, but I suspect you will still have expectations placed on you to provide a certain standard. Now your work may well be excelent, but theres always somebody trying it on hoping to get compensation, if they say you ruined their wedding how do you stand if your expected to pay for a reshoot of their entire wedding?

But by far my biggest concern is why you would want to do them for nothing in the first place, fair enough do the first few to gain experience and get a portfollio, but setting up a website offering a free service makes me (as Joe public) wonder what your after? if it's not their money what else could it be? As somebody else said "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is" I know your intentions may be good but personally I'd be seriously worried about your motives if I was a bride or groom to be.
Wayne

 

[KIPAX]

your website is crips and clear and for a free service looks profesional and thats where you might trip up.. people wont go near your offer if they smell a rat... most of us are warey of the too good to be true angle and wont even apply in case its a con..

as for the free bit...this from your website..

I have worked with a few Professional Photographers around East Anglia as a Wedding Second Shooter

That was very good of them to let you be a second shooter wasn't it? Perhaps you should ask them what they think of your idea ?




.

 

[woodbutcher]

Nigel several things about this cause me concerns.
One is if your not charging then presumably you don't have any insurance, what are you going to do if something happens at a wedding, say a guest trips over your bag or something?
Another issue is what happens if somebody doesn't like your work after the wedding?. I know your doing them for nothing, but I suspect you will still have expectations placed on you to provide a certain standard. Now your work may well be excelent, but theres always somebody trying it on hoping to get compensation, if they say you ruined their wedding how do you stand if your expected to pay for a reshoot of their entire wedding?

But by far my biggest concern is why you would want to do them for nothing in the first place, fair enough do the first few to gain experience and get a portfollio, but setting up a website offering a free service makes me (as Joe public) wonder what your after? if it's not their money what else could it be? As somebody else said "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is" I know your intentions may be good but personally I'd be seriously worried about your motives if I was a bride or groom to be.
Wayne

Wayne, please read the rest of the thread and maybe even the link to the website.
You can see he is not offering free weddings at all. Not even small fee weddings. In fact NO weddings are listed free or otherwise. Engagement shots as an additional supplement to your hired pro's shots are the closest thing to weddings Nigel has listed.
He also states he has insurance in post 17.
The idea behind the website is all about trying to rebuild his confidence and shoot other people and couples and build his portfolio by tapping into friends and friends of friends to use as free models in exchange for images on CD.
There are people who believe, that there is no such thing as a free meal and will treat that generous offer with suspicion and question the motives behind the offer.
Nigel has magnanimously said he will scrap his site if it upsets his peers. To me that speaks volumes about his motives. I just worry that too many people are seeing the words free and wedding and reacting in an abhorrent way, rather than pointing him down an alternative path or helping him set the site up, for how he wants it to work.

 

[swanseamale47]

Wayne, please read the rest of the thread and maybe even the link to the website.
You can see he is not offering free weddings at all. Not even small fee weddings. In fact NO weddings are listed free or otherwise. Engagement shots as an additional supplement to your hired pro's shots are the closest thing to weddings Nigel has listed.
He also states he has insurance in post 17.
The idea behind the website is all about trying to rebuild his confidence and shoot other people and couples and build his portfolio by tapping into friends and friends of friends to use as free models in exchange for images on CD.
There are people who believe, that there is no such thing as a free meal and will treat that generous offer with suspicion and question the motives behind the offer.
Nigel has magnanimously said he will scrap his site if it upsets his peers. To me that speaks volumes about his motives. I just worry that too many people are seeing the words free and wedding and reacting in an abhorrent way, rather than pointing him down an alternative path or helping him set the site up, for how he wants it to work.

The website itself says "FREE LIFESTYLE PHOTOGRAPHY" on the heading, under the words SHOOTS FOR FUN, on the Original post it's headed "free photography website"
Personally if I was in his area I'd be bloody annoyed at the damage he may be doing to local business, while it might be "fun" for him, for some people it's their sole income and they rely on the business to pay the rent and feed their families.

Devaluing the industry can only be bad for us all in the long run. Suppose in a few years time Nigel decides he want to go pro, he rents a studio, buys all the kit and printers etc. Then a few months later Joe freebie sets up next door, Nigel has signed an 18 month contract on his studio, the gear is on HP, it all still has to be paid for, but now theres no money coming in thanks to the free shooter.

 

[On the Huh]

Wayne Clark, thank you for comments mate, I do value your opinions as you are a poster on here who has been helpful to me and others on here.
Just to reiterate I am not offering a wedding package/service. The site as it stands, is a bit mis-leading perhaps with all the wedding images on the home page.

The thing what you and others have said is what are my motives and people will be suspicious of me.
Perhaps if I make it more clear that I am wanting to practice to improve myself and I am not in any way offering a professional service? As said, this is just an idea atm. The website is live, but there are no keywords added and is unlikely to be found unless I give the Domain name to anyone. Which I ain't doing, apart from on here to see what other photographers think. As said, if I am going to upset people in the industry, I'd rather scrap the idea. I was not accepted with Model mayhem for not having the right portfolio, my wedding pictures were dismissed. I just want to find a way of regulary shooting people to practice, so in a few years time I am more confident to charge.

Tony (Kipax). Thanks for your thoughts too. As said above, one problem is people are going to be warrey of me, and I need to address this problem by rewording the copy perhaps?

With those I have worked with, well I had spoke to a couple about the idea, and they didn't look upon it as a threat to them, but did say make sure you explain your intentions crystal clear, which I obviously haven't done.

Woodbutcher, thanks for your input. You seem to know where I am coming from, but if it's going to annoy others or devalue the industry, than I may need to re-think how I'm going to practice shooting people.

 

[woodbutcher]

The website itself says "FREE LIFESTYLE PHOTOGRAPHY" on the heading, under the words SHOOTS FOR FUN, on the Original post it's headed "free photography website"
Personally if I was in his area I'd be bloody annoyed at the damage he may be doing to local business, while it might be "fun" for him, for some people it's their sole income and they rely on the business to pay the rent and feed their families.

Devaluing the industry can only be bad for us all in the long run. Suppose in a few years time Nigel decides he want to go pro, he rents a studio, buys all the kit and printers etc. Then a few months later Joe freebie sets up next door, Nigel has signed an 18 month contract on his studio, the gear is on HP, it all still has to be paid for, but now theres no money coming in thanks to the free shooter.

Don't get me wrong Wayne, I partially agree with a lot that you are saying. Just not the previous post about free weddings. I have suggested Nigel remove his pricing from his website and treat it as his on-line gallery. It serves no purpose by being there. His target audience are friends of friends, for him to practice posing couples and to hone his abilities in the technical aspect of using his equipment. I have a web site that was free with my ISP. 10 years ago, my daughter used it for a school project and it has never been updated since. It's a nonsense site just for her school project. Ever visited it? I doubt it because I don't remember giving out the address to anybody.
I just searched google for 'free lifestyle portraiture Ipswich' and found nothing pertaining to Nigel's site apart from this thread on page 5. I only get 4 hits when searching for 'shoots4fun ipswich' one of them is this thread, one is Nigel's site, one obviously Nigel on TFP Models and the last a suspended account for a 37year old Libran from Mount Pleasant, USA, on a what I can only describe as some kind of fetish site.
My point is just because you have a site, without adequate advertising in the appropriate places, it is just going to be confined to the ether of netspace. Ask EG how much he spends on advertising and then take into account he has a shop front that will seep into the subconscience of passer-bys.
There seems to be two schools of thought developing here.
1 FREE is never good,you are devaluing the profession and forcing the already struggeling pro's to lower their prices. May you burn for your sins.
And
2 Free gives you no room to start charging when you eventualy feel your skill set is good enough to compete in the market. At best you will always remain a budget photographer.
I agree with 2. 1 I have mixed views on.
I am a self employed joiner. There is a retired chap (78) down the street who will gladly do 'free' (as many cuppa's and biscuits as are forth coming) work for the neighbours. These will be things like repairing fences, replacing floorboards/bits of skirting etc. He no longer drives so his 'clients' are limited. Because of physical abilites, he passes the bigger jobs on to me but guesstimates the cost roughly for the neighbours (I think he bases these on 1980's prices but hey hum). Do I begrudge him keeping active in his twilight years? Not really, it stops neighbours pestering me to "just have a look at this for me" And he isn't going to undercut me on a loft conversion or extention roof. I'm not likely to travel to a job to find him working across the street either.

 

[swanseamale47]

Wayne Clark, thank you for comments mate, I do value your opinions as you are a poster on here who has been helpful to me and others on here.
Just to reiterate I am not offering a wedding package/service. The site as it stands, is a bit mis-leading perhaps with all the wedding images on the home page.

The thing what you and others have said is what are my motives and people will be suspicious of me.
Perhaps if I make it more clear that I am wanting to practice to improve myself and I am not in any way offering a professional service? As said, this is just an idea atm. The website is live, but there are no keywords added and is unlikely to be found unless I give the Domain name to anyone. Which I ain't doing, apart from on here to see what other photographers think. As said, if I am going to upset people in the industry, I'd rather scrap the idea. I was not accepted with Model mayhem for not having the right portfolio, my wedding pictures were dismissed. I just want to find a way of regulary shooting people to practice, so in a few years time I am more confident to charge.

Tony (Kipax). Thanks for your thoughts too. As said above, one problem is people are going to be warrey of me, and I need to address this problem by rewording the copy perhaps?

With those I have worked with, well I had spoke to a couple about the idea, and they didn't look upon it as a threat to them, but did say make sure you explain your intentions crystal clear, which I obviously haven't done.

Woodbutcher, thanks for your input. You seem to know where I am coming from, but if it's going to annoy others or devalue the industry, than I may need to re-think how I'm going to practice shooting people.

Nigel, it's not my intention to try and stop you doing anything, and indeed I would have no right to do so. I am not in any way affected by what your trying to do.
What I am doing is saying it how I see it, that doesn't make me right and you (or anybody else) wrong, it is mearly my feeling and instintcs for an industry that pays my wages.
Don't make any resh decisions on what people on the internet say, think it through in your own mind and decide where you are going with it.
No offence meant to you or anybody else.
Wayne

 

[On the Huh]

Wayne, you haven't offended me, as said I appreciate your input.

OK, the idea still stands at the mo. I have changed the copy on the site which I hope is clearer to potential takers of the offer, and peeps will be less suspicious of me. I have also reiterated that it's not an alternative to a Pro togger. I have omitted the wedding pics, I think these have been a bit mis-leading, but they have only been part of this proto-type. I have deleted the engagement shoot page and the Cherish the Dress page.

Am I still a threat to the industry? Is my idea undermining the value of photography? In my head no, but I may still need a reality check. Further C&C will be welcomed, and any alternative ideas too!

EDIT: BTW, I know I will need to change and add new pics to the homepage and spend a bit more time on the copy. It's just at the stage to give an essence of the idea ATM

 

[woodbutcher]

That was very good of them to let you be a second shooter wasn't it? Perhaps you should ask them what they think of your idea ?

With those I have worked with, well I had spoke to a couple about the idea, and they didn't look upon it as a threat to them, but did say make sure you explain your intentions crystal clear, which I obviously haven't done.

Just had a very quick look at your re-worded site.
I think your intentions are a lot clearer now but I understood what you wanted from the start. It would be interesting to know what the others think now, especially the pro's who have a more vested interest than I.

I will shoot individuals, couples or families completely free of charge. I would think about removing the word completely. You are leaving yourself no room to manoeuvre if you need to cover transportation costs or something else unforeseen. Potentially, I can now use your service and you will pay my transportation to Suffolk as it is completely free.

 

[On the Huh]

Cheers Woodbutcher, good point!