Beginner Getting lighting right on proof coins?

Tulipone

Tulipone

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Chris
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I am trying to get pictures of some proof silver coins and seem just unable to understand how to control light.

Look at this picture of a 2016 Britannia:-
2016%20Britannia_zpsekinjisq.jpg


Would you know that it was wholly a silver colour from the photo? Certainly some areas would look far better with the light bouncing differently.

I mount the camera on a tripod and focus down using one or two external constant lights (LEDs). I have moved lights 360 around the coin then again using one light. I have diffused the light from the lights, made a simple soft box with cotton sheet with the lights outside. I have tried bouncing reflected light and always seem to get the same effect.

Now don't get me wrong, the error sometimes works out for as with this 2014 Panda:-
2014%20panda_zpsywtx2d4q.jpg


The Panda accidentally looks right and the temple and stairs also are fine. Please understand that win the hand both the Britannia and the Panda look like shiny silver with frosting and etching.

I understand that light is not working with me but I have no idea how to get coins that look silver. I would be really grateful for an idiots guide on getting this right - a really dummy guide.

Would a macro lens make any difference? I am using a M4/3 with f2.8 lens.

Thank you in anticipation.
 
You need to reduce the lighting ratio so that it's all about even. I would use one as diffused fill (from above) and the second as a harder cross light (from side/shallow angle) in order to bring out the texture/detail.
 
sk66 said:
You need to reduce the lighting ratio so that it's all about even. I would use one as diffused fill (from above) and the second as a harder cross light (from side/shallow angle) in order to bring out the texture/detail.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I *think* you are putting me onto the right tracks but this is going to take some working out. I think that the light needs to be more diffused and accidentally I didn't put the coin flat with the 'head' shot. The head is overblown but at least more silvery.

2015%20Wedge%20Eagle_zpsiincweyz.jpg


The problem is that the frosting bounces the light in all different directions so what is right with one is wrong with the other. The texture in the eagle is better with the cross light but still not silvery. The Queen is (overblown) silvery but the majority of the inner rim is black.

I guess it is a case of playing with it until I find out how to tweak the results.
 
Do you have power control over the LED's? If so, I would suggest you start with taking a picture w/o the LED's. It should be a pretty flat/evenly lit result. Then add one LED w/ diffusion to fill in any dark areas (camera settings will need reduced). And then add second led as cross light to bring up details (highlight higher points).

The other option for flatter lighting w/ some detail may not be doable w/ the LED's. You need a (one) relatively large modifier from a fairly shallow angle.

Lighting for one coin may not be ideal for the next. If you want details then you must have shadows (dark areas).
 
add more material to soften the light, a photo of the setup you are using might be helpful too :)

You could place black card directly above and purely light from the sides with a really soft light.
 
Your lighting is half the issue, the dark areas are what is being reflected, you need a even light and then bring in some white paper for example this is what you will see in the coins reflection, thus removing the dark areas without over exposing it.

Another tip is if your struggling, do half a coin at a time and out them back together in PS
 
Harvey_nikon said:
add more material to soften the light, a photo of the setup you are using might be helpful too :)

You could place black card directly above and purely light from the sides with a really soft light.
Click to expand...

I can certainly add more to diffuse the light and will try that. Thanks.

Studio488 said:
Your lighting is half the issue, the dark areas are what is being reflected, you need a even light and then bring in some white paper for example this is what you will see in the coins reflection, thus removing the dark areas without over exposing it.

Another tip is if your struggling, do half a coin at a time and out them back together in PS
Click to expand...

I think you are saying that the camera/tripod being reflected onto the coin? The only way to reduce that would be to extend the distance between the end of the lens and the coin - is that what you mean?

The picture is formed by combining two pictures into one. I am only taking a picture of one side at a time but the pictures posted are of both sides of the same coin.
 
If you place
Tulipone said:
I can certainly add more to diffuse the light and will try that. Thanks.



I think you are saying that the camera/tripod being reflected onto the coin? The only way to reduce that would be to extend the distance between the end of the lens and the coin - is that what you mean?

The picture is formed by combining two pictures into one. I am only taking a picture of one side at a time but the pictures posted are of both sides of the same coin.
Click to expand...

Does you camera have live view? If so just view the coin with a piece of paper being moved a round, you will see how the paper is reflected making the dark areas appear white/silver, if you cannot get in all in one shot use multiple shots, moving the paper around ect, and combine to make one side of the coin. It's how we do a lot of glass/ shiney stuff.
 
The problem is proof coins have a highly polished mirror-like finish. The surface will reflect whatever part of the surroundings falls at a certain angle that coincides with the lens. Light reflects off a surface at the same angle it strikes.

To get white, the coin needs to reflect something white in exactly the right position. It's the nature of those reflections that makes the effect look natural. If you're shooting directly from above, the white area needs to be around the camera, eg white card with a hole cut for the lens to poke through.

Coin photography is quite a specialist area, lots of articles around it if you google, like this one http://www.sigma-2.com/camerajim/cjgcoins.htm I've also used the 'axial' technique described there, though I don't know how well it would work with proof coins. Another trick might be to hire a tilt-&-shift lens, though you'd have to know what you're doing with that.

It all gets a heck of a lot easier of you don't have to shoot from directly above. If a slightly angled view is acceptable, just put a sheet of white card opposite the camera and move it around until the reflections look right.
 
Decided to have quick go before turning in. Tried a couple of things - but the big difference came by cutting a hole in some white material and putting that over the lens, then tilting the coin towards the single light. The first pair is with this technique, the second row from the last time I tried. Not perfect but lots better. Thank you all for your advice - I now have a far better idea of what I was doing wrong.

2016%20Monkey%20Face-tile_zps6h726tjx.jpg
 
Interestingly I have just had a similar problem taking some pictures of a ring. White Gold with Diamonds. I ended up using 2 flashes and an LED torch, after a lot of playing around I had a variety of results. The most notable was when I had one flash at an angle so the light reflected from the ring directly into the lens (but very low power).

This will be more difficult for you as you are trying to shoot from directly above the coins, it might be worth trying with a Macro Ring Flash. You can get cheap ones like this one and it will give you controllable, even light all around the coin.
 
Would a ring flash work, I see a lot of forensic photographers use them to stop shadows due to the even light they give.
Not sure what camera you have but Yongnuo do very good equipment.
I have the Yongnuo-YN600EX-RT speedlight x2 and the trigger, I have looked at the ringlight flash they make.
All the reviews are extremely positive, just a thought, perhaps I am completely on the wrong track.
 
I have a ring flash as that was my first thought. Didn't work for me.

I'm pretty sure that the answer is not having the coin at exactly 90 degrees to the camera, covering as much of the camera as possible and using two light sources, one to fill and one to bring the detail.
 
There is certainly a lot of sense in the angle of reflection being different.
The rule of a slight angle change with spectacle wearers to the cameras lens due to light reflecting.
The problem with the coins is the multi angles reflecting of course!
How about 360 degree lighting via a softbox enclosure used for product shots.
ie put the coins inside the softbox with lights outside the cloth and the softbox on its back so the coin can lay flat and have a tripod that can go at 90 degrees and face down over the coins.
I'd hope the diffused lighting would oppose itself coming from all angles to stop the reflections.
What do you feel?
 
This is what I was meaning but of course with lights surrounding as felt needed.
plate_photosetup.jpg
 
You can reduce the amount of reflection from the camera by shooting further away with a longer lens, or you can remove it completely using a tilt shift lens (shift is I think the movement required).

But as you've figures out, the fly in the ointment is the reflection of the camera.

However, ther's still much to be gained for these unique subjects with bits of card to manage the lights and shadows.
 
I have a Canon 24mm TSe L and will have a go and see what results I get, I won't be able to try until Tuesday at the earliest though as I am away and don't carry all my gear always as don't need everything according to what I am photographing.
 
I cannot help with your lighting problems but I must say those are rather nice coins, is it a hobby of yours. ?

Just been on the Royal Mint website to look for the Monkey £2 coins and they are not cheap, but probably a good investment.
 
In college we used the cone method, with tungsten lamps and on film. I'd go with that.
 
Scotty Pro said:
I cannot help with your lighting problems but I must say those are rather nice coins, is it a hobby of yours. ?

Just been on the Royal Mint website to look for the Monkey £2 coins and they are not cheap, but probably a good investment.
Click to expand...

Silver is a dreadful investment. It goes up and down in value but after dealer premiums and VAT it certainly would not figure highly in my portfolio. I have a few as they look nice - one of those things when you mention to family just before a birthday and someone picks up on a present idea that was not really intended. Still they are nicer than socks!

@retrosi - Please don't go to trouble. I have not had too much time to play today and intend to try out the axial method that was in the link @HoppyUK kindly added and you have shown above with glass.

It has been fun trying to figure out what I was doing wrong and pleased to have found a cheap solution.
 
Phil V said:
You can reduce the amount of reflection from the camera by shooting further away with a longer lens, or you can remove it completely using a tilt shift lens (shift is I think the movement required).

But as you've figures out, the fly in the ointment is the reflection of the camera.

However, ther's still much to be gained for these unique subjects with bits of card to manage the lights and shadows.
Click to expand...

Thanks Phil. Was thinking of buying a macro lens anyway. I have some roman coins that I'd like to pick out more detail on. If nothing else it would have a longer reach than what I am currently using. Think 90mm on a crop would be far enough?
 
When you are photographing polished silver metal the metal has no natural colour. The white or black you are seeing on the coin is the white/black material or your light source reflected in the coin. If you want your coin to be white make sure it is reflecting a white material or your light source. The colour you are seeing in the coin is a reflection its surroundings not the coin. It's easy to resolve if you have a vice flat coin but the details create a selection of concave and convex mirrors which makes the situation worse.

If you imagine trying to photograph the back of a spoon you would need a very large white piece of material or light source to ensure all you could see in the back of the spoon was white. Anything like a black lens or camera will reflect black, so you need to make sure the camera and lens are at such an angle that they are not reflected in the coin or are far enough away that they are very small black areas. You can always improve the situation by obscuring as much of your camera with white material and tape, as long as you want the coins to look white.
 
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